JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Dave, that woke them up didn’t it?
.
.
Feedback From The Tunnel
- Thread starter Gene Beggs
- Start date
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Ok score shooters bring your best tune to some group matches!!
???????
.
???????
.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Jerry, you're the one making claims about how easy score must be and that somehow discredits my posts on tuners. Wouldn't it make more sense for you to come show us lowly score shooters how it's done?
Let's get back on the original subject. As Richard alluded to, this thread isn't about group vs score.
Engrbill
Member
Richard, what contour do you start with that requires you to flute 14 oz out of them? Thanks, and how many flutes and what size are they? Have often thought a fluted barrel may cool faster than a smooth unfluted barrel.
I use 6 flutes
with a .312 convex cutter most of the time. Most are typical LV contour but I also will use a "hybrid" contour of 1.240-.875
Using that contour will allow me to adjust the weight to fit my different rifles. It also depends on the weight
of the tuner I'm using. I try to have the flute start where the throat is in the chamber and leave about 3 inches unfluted at the front.
Richard
with a .312 convex cutter most of the time. Most are typical LV contour but I also will use a "hybrid" contour of 1.240-.875
Using that contour will allow me to adjust the weight to fit my different rifles. It also depends on the weight
of the tuner I'm using. I try to have the flute start where the throat is in the chamber and leave about 3 inches unfluted at the front.
Richard
I have a couple of fluted barrels here I would like use, kinda difficult to put a .900 thread on a .875 muzzle.
I guess it comes down to how much you can cut off the barrel before you hit the flutes.
Planning is everything but that takes heaps of time if you are ordering barrels, not getting them off the shelf
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I'm not sure but you might have missed my point. A LV contour barrel can be used with my existing tuner thread, with the plan that it will be used, before cutting both ends. I'll change it to .875 from .900 at some point, but just that difference alone should tell you that it's a small difference in the planning stages, as is.
I hope that clarifies my point. Basically, it only means moving the chamber and crown about an inch rearward on a new build or shortening the barrel about an inch on an existing one, IF IT ISN"T ALREADY BIG ENOUGH. many are.. Not exactly complicated, when you think about it like that.
Last edited:
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Yes, an interrupted cut thread is a task, at times. Flute depth and length can make a huge difference. Again, just planning.
I'll add this...I would gladly adjust flute depth or barrel length for a tuner.....Hands Down! I'll take a 16" barrel WITH a tuner over a 24" barrel without one, every day and twice on Sundays....or Saturdays.
That's not to take away from what we were discussing earlier. A longer barrel does have a wider tuning node and is worthwhile, IMHO, just not for anything else, in the short range BR game...and there are ways, such as fluting and adding effective tuner weight, to replace the effect of shortening the barrel.
Richard, I'd love to talk more with you about some of these details, if you'd call me or pm me. We're bumping against theoreticals and I'd rather not do that publicly in this thread. Everything I've posted, I've tested to the point that I think it is statistically significant or factual. We should keep it that way but there are many aspects that I think are still untested and unproven, that may well be of benefit. So far, we've only really addressed barrel harmonics. The whole package is what we need to discuss, at some point.
Last edited:
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Ike, I have no intention of belittling score shooters or your tuner. But simple fact, score shooting doesn’t require the accuracy of group. FACT!
.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Is it fair to assume that you won the score match Rick mentioned, then? Again, great material for another thread.
Mike,
sent you a pm. I really was hoping this thread would stay on track.
Jerry, a little advice, there are people that are taking time to make this a very interesting and informative thread. Just chill out a little and take time to go through the posts objectivly. There really is alot of good stuff here.
To Gene Beggs: A big thank you for all you have done over the years. Not only with tuners, but everything else you have been willing to share with fellow shooters.
Richard
sent you a pm. I really was hoping this thread would stay on track.
Jerry, a little advice, there are people that are taking time to make this a very interesting and informative thread. Just chill out a little and take time to go through the posts objectivly. There really is alot of good stuff here.
To Gene Beggs: A big thank you for all you have done over the years. Not only with tuners, but everything else you have been willing to share with fellow shooters.
Richard
jimmymac
J McGregor
I absolutely...
...do not want to see this thread get derailed from the original intent. I don't care what discipline anyone prefers. What I do care about is hearing from the likes of Mike, Richard, Gene Beggs and anyone else who has put in some serious time testing tuners. Thanks to all who have provided wisdom.
...do not want to see this thread get derailed from the original intent. I don't care what discipline anyone prefers. What I do care about is hearing from the likes of Mike, Richard, Gene Beggs and anyone else who has put in some serious time testing tuners. Thanks to all who have provided wisdom.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
A better idea on testing the accuracy required of a group rifle and a score rifle why don't some of you score shooters come to some group matches in 2018? Mike invited me to come shoot some more score. The problem here of me representing group shooters is that my eyesight has deteriorated to the point that now, with Leupold 45 power and a 3X multiplier, I still can't see a 6mm bullet hole at 100 yards.
When I shot at the Rocky Road score shoot mentioned by Rick in a post above I had no idea where my bullets were hitting even at 100 let alone 200. I was fun but also frustrating.
Back about 15 or so years ago Mike Walker and I discussed going to something like a 60 cal bullet so we could see the holes. Speaking of Mr Walker, when he was 98 I shot HV 100 beside him at Weikert. Imagine shooting benchrest at 98 years old. He had traveled up from his home in North Carolina just to shoot HV100.
And Richard, YOU need to chill out a bit yourself.. I am the FIRST centerfire benchrest shooter to have shot an entire season having shot ALL the local shoots, the Super Shoot, and the IBS and NBRSA Nationals, USING TUNERS, in a single year!!
In 2005 Scott "Fudd" Hamilton made me some tuners that we designed for centerfire. Up till that time the famous Fudd tuner was only made out of aluminum for the rimfire guns. The Fudd and the KC Young tuners were in use in rimfire earlier but tuners were not used in centerfire. Oh, George Kelbly Sr and Paul Gotshall, back about 10 years earlier had tied a 5 pound weight to a centerfire barrel to see if added weight would help accuracy. According to him, that 5 pound weight did lower the POI but nothing else. George still has that 5 pound weight in his pile of "testeds".
Back to 2005, when I got to the IBS Nationals, which had not approved tuners, unless they did not exceed the maximum dimensions of a HV barrel. Jim Borden and I designed a tuner to fit the then IBS requirements. It was 6" long to get enough weight. It worked, somewhat, but adjusting that long cumbersome tuner could change the POI by 1" at 100.
So, guys and gals, use your newfound tuners and enjoy the trip.
.
Well Jerry,
I'm glad you have taken the time to learn more about tuners. I have believed for years that the potential is there for gains to be made. I have played with tuners since the late 1980's
Long before I ever shot BR. I didn't even know what the nbrsa was at that time. All I ever wanted was an accurate rifle to plink with and shoot P dogs. Since I started shooting BR haven't shot a P dog since
Anyway, I wouldn't call tuners "new found" by any means. As I said before, this has been a great thread and hope we will get back on track with information that can be useful to everyone interested in using tuners and to those that have been using tuners but haven't quite got it figured out.
I'm not going to set here and type and say I have it all figured out because I don't. Sure there are many things overlooked and things that haven't been thought about yet.
Jerry, you used tuners for a full year, let's hear your thoughts about how they worked for you.
Richard
I'm glad you have taken the time to learn more about tuners. I have believed for years that the potential is there for gains to be made. I have played with tuners since the late 1980's
Long before I ever shot BR. I didn't even know what the nbrsa was at that time. All I ever wanted was an accurate rifle to plink with and shoot P dogs. Since I started shooting BR haven't shot a P dog since
Anyway, I wouldn't call tuners "new found" by any means. As I said before, this has been a great thread and hope we will get back on track with information that can be useful to everyone interested in using tuners and to those that have been using tuners but haven't quite got it figured out.
I'm not going to set here and type and say I have it all figured out because I don't. Sure there are many things overlooked and things that haven't been thought about yet.
Jerry, you used tuners for a full year, let's hear your thoughts about how they worked for you.
Richard
Jerry,
I want to apologize for my remark about the UBR match you attended. I know that you could not see and my comment was insensitive. It might surprise you to know that for the most part I agree with your position that generally speaking score shooters don't require the degree of accuracy from their rifles that group shooters do. I have told many folks that I believe group shooting at the highest level speaks more to the precision of the rifle while score shooting requires more of the shooter. That being said score matches won't be won by shooters with inaccurate or rifles that are out of tune. OTOH- I have observed that many of the same people are at the top of group matches time after time. This tells me it is both the Indian and the arrow.
I have used tuners for something like ten years. A fellow shooter and I both had tuners installed on our 30 BRs at the same time and spent the better part of a day, tuning, adjusting and testing the effect. After that day I no longer had any doubts about whether or not they worked. Since that time I have tried several different designs and have settled on two that I prefer. Mike's is one of those two. My observation is that while his tuner isn't magic, it is easier to adjust and probably has a wider tune window that most of the others. I will typically shoot one or two three shot groups during the warm up period of the first match, adjusting for vertical. I know that Mike is confident that horizontal can also be adjusted with a tuner and I don't disagree, but I've never been able to see it during a match. Although I occasionally need to adjust during a match, for the most part it doesn't seem to be necessary unless there is an extreme temperature change. This may be because, as Jerry says, the precise tune isn't as important in score. Most of my rifles are HV, but I do have one Unlimited that weighs 18 lbs and has a 1.25" barrel. This rifle has a Borden tuner. In competition with this rifle I've only moved the tuner in one match and that turned out to be a mistake. The tune never seems to have an obvious change. I would not consider shooting a match with a rifle not equipped with a tuner with the exception of Factory Class.
As Mike has said many times, the most common mistake that most people make is making large moves with the tuner and making it more complicated than it is. If and when I do feel an adjustment is needed, I rarely move the tuner more that 1/2 of one mark on Mike's PDT tuner. This would be about 1/8". If the next group is larger I move it the other way about the same amount. In almost every case this accomplishes the correction I need. It has been asked where does one start. I start by turning the tuner all the way in, two full turns back out and shoot a 3 shot group. I adjust from there and have never been more than a mark or two from being in tune. The tune is repeatable, probably at least four times in a turn, possibly more.
YMMV,
Rick
I want to apologize for my remark about the UBR match you attended. I know that you could not see and my comment was insensitive. It might surprise you to know that for the most part I agree with your position that generally speaking score shooters don't require the degree of accuracy from their rifles that group shooters do. I have told many folks that I believe group shooting at the highest level speaks more to the precision of the rifle while score shooting requires more of the shooter. That being said score matches won't be won by shooters with inaccurate or rifles that are out of tune. OTOH- I have observed that many of the same people are at the top of group matches time after time. This tells me it is both the Indian and the arrow.
I have used tuners for something like ten years. A fellow shooter and I both had tuners installed on our 30 BRs at the same time and spent the better part of a day, tuning, adjusting and testing the effect. After that day I no longer had any doubts about whether or not they worked. Since that time I have tried several different designs and have settled on two that I prefer. Mike's is one of those two. My observation is that while his tuner isn't magic, it is easier to adjust and probably has a wider tune window that most of the others. I will typically shoot one or two three shot groups during the warm up period of the first match, adjusting for vertical. I know that Mike is confident that horizontal can also be adjusted with a tuner and I don't disagree, but I've never been able to see it during a match. Although I occasionally need to adjust during a match, for the most part it doesn't seem to be necessary unless there is an extreme temperature change. This may be because, as Jerry says, the precise tune isn't as important in score. Most of my rifles are HV, but I do have one Unlimited that weighs 18 lbs and has a 1.25" barrel. This rifle has a Borden tuner. In competition with this rifle I've only moved the tuner in one match and that turned out to be a mistake. The tune never seems to have an obvious change. I would not consider shooting a match with a rifle not equipped with a tuner with the exception of Factory Class.
As Mike has said many times, the most common mistake that most people make is making large moves with the tuner and making it more complicated than it is. If and when I do feel an adjustment is needed, I rarely move the tuner more that 1/2 of one mark on Mike's PDT tuner. This would be about 1/8". If the next group is larger I move it the other way about the same amount. In almost every case this accomplishes the correction I need. It has been asked where does one start. I start by turning the tuner all the way in, two full turns back out and shoot a 3 shot group. I adjust from there and have never been more than a mark or two from being in tune. The tune is repeatable, probably at least four times in a turn, possibly more.
YMMV,
Rick
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
My feelings on tuners, not expert, but somewhat informed on this subject.
In the last 55 years or so ihave shot some aspect of sanctioned shooting. Bullseye (2700) pistol. Then Big Bore handgun silhouette, then Sporting Clays. Later ATA registered Trap and so it went. When I got to where I could not see the spin on a clay target I took up Benchrest, NBRSA, IBS ARA and IR 5050. I guessshooting rimfire is what got me interested in tuners. Since the load, in rimfire, is fixed, the only option a rimfire shooter has is to tune the barrel to the load.
What I think I learned shooting tuners and nothing else for a year wasfor a tuner to be totally effective it needs to weigh somewhere above 5-6 ounces. A lesser weight will let the gun/load/environmental condition will somewhat “tune for the moment”. Meaning, a light tuner probably will not tune a badly out of tune barrel. Many good barrels, IMO, have been culled because their harmonics were “off”. That is why some gunsmiths and gunsmith shooters keep recrowninb till Thant barrel shoots reasonably.
The big problem h using heavier tuners and trying to make weight in a 10.5 pound class is keeping under thatweught limit. Somewhere back a few years earlier in this forum I posted some pictures of barrels I had machined down to make weight using a heavy tuner. Peter Paul Mauser, back in the late 1800’s learned that machining arifle barrel in “steps as they were called, were more accurate than barrels that were just slimmer. I tried that. I tried reducing the barrel taper diameter. Both worked but both were.very time consuming. Not something that a gunsmith would not have to chargd quite a bit extra for.
So much for rambling. IMO, heavy tuners can be used to tune a barrel, set and forget. Or lighter tuners used to tune for the moment.
Something that questions me now is tuners a passing fad? When I started Benchrest I saw early on Benchrest is a “monkey see, monkey do”. If Tony B hangs adead chicken on his barrel and wins, buy stock in a dead chicken business because Benchrest shooters will make a run on dead chickens!.
Shooting with tuners is fun though! Frustrating at times but fun. Especially in sanctions that allow 13.5 pound or heavier guns where making weight is not a big chore. (In IBS 600-1000 light gun is 17.5 max).
.
Boyd Allen
Active member
On the subject of heavier rifles, let me point to varmint Al's work on tuners. He showed that adding the weight of a tuner was one of several ways to move the point of bullet exit from the muzzle to the left side of the muzzle rise curve. There were a couple of other ways that he demonstrated could achieve the same result, although not with the adjustability that a tuner offers. One was simply using a longer barrel, and the other came from a request that I made of him. Based on earlier work by Merrill Martin had done, I asked him to do a computer simulation of the effect of machining down the center of a barrel slightly to increase its flexibility. Earlier, in a thread that was a discussion that included Bill Calfee I called that practice creating a hinge point, at that point a new term, which he asked if I would mind if he used in future discussions. My point in all of this is to remember what we are trying to accomplish with a tuner. If, for various reasons a rifle already has a long barrel it may already be capable of achieving positive compensation which is what we are doing by moving bullets exits to the left side of the curve. Given this fact, we may need to think about just how much weight is actually needed on longer, less stiff barrels. It is entirely possible that in these cases, less really is more. An example of this sort of thinking has come to light in Erik Cortina's tuner design, pictured in this article. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/300wsm/ The next question, that I have not seen any work on is just how "wobbly" a barrel can be without losing accuracy. This would be important if one were to try to make a tuner work the same on a 10.5# rifle as they do on 13.5# rifles, while retaining the balance needed to perform well when shot free recoil.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
http://i25.tinypic.com/2iie62v.jpg
Some tuners I tried. The one on top, all aluminum, about 5 ounces, next, stainless weight rings, 10.5 ounces, bottom tuner, the early IBS 4 ounces.
.
Some tuners I tried. The one on top, all aluminum, about 5 ounces, next, stainless weight rings, 10.5 ounces, bottom tuner, the early IBS 4 ounces.
.