Feedback From The Tunnel

mwezell said:
I'm hesitant but I have to disagree about how far and when to move my tuner. IME, it depends mostly on the cartridge and powder used. Some powders change more than others with condition changes...we're all familiar with n133 in a 6ppc and h4198 in a 30br, for example. One is known for being very tune sensitive and the other, not so much. IME, neither can have a blanket statement made as to when you should move the tuner, as in every 5°. With various cartridges, chambers, barrels and rifles, I can say that only a handfull of times over several years now, have I moved my tuner more than 1 mark throughout the course of an entire day and about half of the time, I don't move it at all after the warm up. I will, but only if the target tells me I need to.

Another thing is that with my tuner, about a bullet hole of vertical = 1 mark on the tuner. There are rare exceptions to this, but again, rarely. We have to look at the whole rifle and even the rest and how it manages vibration, so, while I find this remarkably consistent, we have to look at each individual rifle, case by case. That said, I've never seen a rifle be an extreme outlier to this. Every one has been very close.

The picture below is of a target fired with a different make of tuner, but it's absolutely textbook as to what I look for and how groups form...

Look at the top row.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18512&d=1476239932

A very, very consistent scenario with my tuner is clear in the pic. That being, on a typical short range br rifle, there are about 3-4 marks between completely in tune and completely out of tune. As you move it in 1 mark increments from the out of tune condition, it's very typical to see just what this shooter saw. That being, 3-4 marks from tune, the gun shot a big round group. Then 2-3 marks from tune, the group stairstepped. One mark out, it went straight vertical and in tune, it shot a bullet hole group.

I can't begin to tell you how consistent and predictable this scenario is! It's that EASY! You are NEVER more that about 4 marks out of tune and once you learn what the group size and shape are telling you, it's as simple as moving the tuner that amount.

Now tell me who can't tune a rifle like that.
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BRAVO!, Mike, I just sat back down after standing, snapping to attention, applauding and giving you a snappy salute for everything you say in this post! You are a terrific writer and I agree with everything you said.

Well guys, there you have it. If I were you, I would send a barrel that you know shoots to Mike and let him fit one of his tuners to it. Or buy a new barrel from him and let him install it on your rifle and do exactly as he says. You will be amazed!
I would suggest you let him set up the rifle as a heavy varmint so you won't have to worry about the increase in weight. I believe his tuners weigh about 6 ounces. If you are pleased with the results of the 13.5 pound rifle, (and I know you will be) it's no problem to build a 10.5 pound light varmint with Mikes tuner if you plan for it in advance.

I'll continue using my own tuners as I have confidence in them, but I highly recommend Mike Ezell's PDT tuner. I bought one from him some time ago just to see how it is made. Take my word for it, it's nice. It's more expensive than mine but considering all the work, research and expense Mike has put into it, it's a bargain plus it's marketed by a man that can tell you exactly how to use it. You can't beat that!

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, After all this time I'm needing to load my 220 Beggs. Somebody, probably me, erased the loads that you sent me. I have 4198-H322-8208-LT32 and 52grain Cheek bullets.
On tuners, Ed Shilen gave me a little advise. To get started I use an amplified stethoscope. Tap the barrel with a piece of metal. When the ring gets to a thud, you are close. Fine adjustments can be done while shooting after that.
My tuners are now available from bullets.com
 
Gene Beggs said:
BRAVO!, Mike, I just sat back down after standing, snapping to attention, applauding and giving you a snappy salute for everything you say in this post! You are a terrific writer and I agree with everything you said.

Well guys, there you have it. If I were you, I would send a barrel that you know shoots to Mike and let him fit one of his tuners to it. Or buy a new barrel from him and let him install it on your rifle and do exactly as he says. You will be amazed!
I would suggest you let him set up the rifle as a heavy varmint so you won't have to worry about the increase in weight. I believe his tuners weigh about 6 ounces. If you are pleased with the results of the 13.5 pound rifle, (and I know you will be) it's no problem to build a 10.5 pound light varmint with Mikes tuner if you plan for it in advance.

I'll continue using my own tuners as I have confidence in them, but I highly recommend Mike Ezell's PDT tuner. I bought one from him some time ago just to see how it is made. Take my word for it, it's nice. It's more expensive than mine but considering all the work, research and expense Mike has put into it, it's a bargain plus it's marketed by a man that can tell you exactly how to use it. You can't beat that!

Gene Beggs
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Gene, That's way more credit than I deserve. I hope it is and I take it as a very big compliment, coming from you. I greatly value your opinion and research on the subject of tuners. Please don't let my post stop this thread. The thread is too good. I'm not looking to solicit business from this. In the end, if people understand how to use tuners and aren't confused by so much bad info, they'll come back to you and me both, when they decide to come over to the dark side. I truly believe that there are two kinds of BR shooters....those using tuners and those that will, eventually.

I did not mean to discredit anything you have said. Yes, I have had somewhat different experience with tuners, but most of my experience is with mine. There are differences.

Don't stop! I'll bow out if you wish. My goal is for everyone that wants to try a tuner to have the best instruction for the tuner they try, as possible, and to dispel a lot of misconceptions like moving them full turns at a time.

You bring a huge amount of knowledge to this discussion.

Sincerely,
Mike
 
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Butch Lambert said:
Gene, After all this time I'm needing to load my 220 Beggs. Somebody, probably me, erased the loads that you sent me. I have 4198-H322-8208-LT32 and 52grain Cheek bullets.
On tuners, Ed Shilen gave me a little advise. To get started I use an amplified stethoscope. Tap the barrel with a piece of metal. When the ring gets to a thud, you are close. Fine adjustments can be done while shooting after that.
My tuners are now available from bullets.com
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Butch, LT-32 is a great powder for the Lapua 220 Russian (aka 220 Beggs). Seat 52 to 55 grain bullets just off the lands and bring the powder up to the junction of the neck and shoulder. That should give you right at 3500 fps. Let me know how it goes. Come out and shoot with me in the tunnel.

Warmest regards

Gene Beggs
 
Butch Lambert said:
Gene, After all this time I'm needing to load my 220 Beggs. Somebody, probably me, erased the loads that you sent me. I have 4198-H322-8208-LT32 and 52grain Cheek bullets.
On tuners, Ed Shilen gave me a little advise. To get started I use an amplified stethoscope. Tap the barrel with a piece of metal. When the ring gets to a thud, you are close. Fine adjustments can be done while shooting after that.
My tuners are now available from bullets.com
Click to expand...

Butch, I've had very good success with 26.0 grains of LT32 in a few of 220 Beggs barrels. In fact, I had one that came with a gun that I bought and had a Bukys tuner on it. I didn't mess with changing tuners. I just tuned it like I would with mine, or very near it.

I literally loaded 26.0gr of LT32, in a barrel that I'd never fired. I had just put the scope on the gun the night before. The first group on the sighter was on the warm-up. In UBR, we only have a 3 minute warm up and it was shooting horribly on the first group. In 2 minutes, I had the gun shooting at a competitve tune and the scope sighted in...with someone else's tuner!
 
Pete Wass said:
How many years has it been since I gave up on CF tuners simply because there were no answers or simple method to know where one was at? I hope you will make all my dreams come true Gene :).

Pete
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Pete, I hear you and I know what you mean and how you feel. Stay tuned, some good things are on the horizon.

Warmest regards

Gene Beggs
 
mwezell said:
Later, I'll post a photo posted on this site by someone on an old tuner thread. I have no idea who's tuner he was using but it's classic, to the point of being predictable...So much so, that I can look at the target and tell how far the tuner should be moved...The best part is, everyone should be able to clearly see the same thing.
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I am 99.9% sure that is a target I posted, it is a Buky's Tuner.
 
Gene Beggs said:
BRAVO!, Mike, I just sat back down after standing, snapping to attention, applauding and giving you a snappy salute for everything you say in this post! You are a terrific writer and I agree with everything you said.

Well guys, there you have it. If I were you, I would send a barrel that you know shoots to Mike and let him fit one of his tuners to it. Or buy a new barrel from him and let him install it on your rifle and do exactly as he says. You will be amazed!
I would suggest you let him set up the rifle as a heavy varmint so you won't have to worry about the increase in weight. I believe his tuners weigh about 6 ounces. If you are pleased with the results of the 13.5 pound rifle, (and I know you will be) it's no problem to build a 10.5 pound light varmint with Mikes tuner if you plan for it in advance.

I'll continue using my own tuners as I have confidence in them, but I highly recommend Mike Ezell's PDT tuner. I bought one from him some time ago just to see how it is made. Take my word for it, it's nice. It's more expensive than mine but considering all the work, research and expense Mike has put into it, it's a bargain plus it's marketed by a man that can tell you exactly how to use it. You can't beat that!

Gene Beggs
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I would love to try a couple of Mikes tuners, it would be great if they came with the "standard" 7/8 x 32 thread.
 
Kiwi Greg said:
I would love to try a couple of Mikes tuners, it would be great if they came with the "standard" 7/8 x 32 thread.
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I don't have a time frame but I will be changing to an .875-32.
But Greg, when I started making tuners, there were more .900 tuners than .875 models. It was a poorly thought out choice on my part but was based on the closest thing to a "standard" size as there was. The standard changed.

But, as has been mentioned, they can be used on an lv barrel with proper planning.
 
mwezell said:
I don't have a time frame but I will be changing to an .875-32.
But Greg, when I started making tuners, there were more .900 tuners than .875 models. It was a poorly thought out choice on my part but was based on the closest thing to a "standard" size as there was. The standard changed.

But, as has been mentioned, they can be used on an lv barrel with proper planning.
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Thanks Mike I'm keen to try some different tuners on the same barrels to see which suits my situation the best.

You are lucky to only have two threads to worry about

Two of my 17 brake models have 13 separate thread options each, with a current total of 31 different threads across the models.

I nearly always have my full inventory available in stock..
 
Over on the rim fire side they have a couple of “named” tuning methods. I.E. how to get the best setting. Anyone on the centerfire side have a regimented plan?

On tuner design there are so many options. Tuner ahead of the muzzle. Tuner behind the muzzle. Tuners under about 8 ounces. Tuners over about 8 ounces.......

I have a K C Young tuner on a rim fire that is simply a micrometer thimble on an aluminum ring?? Go frigger!

In earlier times one of the Texas Tornados, TJ, Harold, or Red, I forget, kept trimming and shooting till he got what he thought was best accuracy. I used my tuners for that method then left it set.

I shoot with some of the rim fire guys and several use 3 tuners on a single barrel....

.
 
Jerry, I think

it's been pretty well laid out in the previous posts so no use in rehashing that part.
Your right, there are alot of options out in tuner design. Most work very well, just pick one out and learn to use it and have fun. I can't even imagine shooting without one anymore. I haven't tuned with powder for several years and have had good sucess doing it that way.

Richard
 
Richard said:
it's been pretty well laid out in the previous posts so no use in rehashing that part.
Your right, there are alot of options out in tuner design. Most work very well, just pick one out and learn to use it and have fun. I can't even imagine shooting without one anymore. I haven't tuned with powder for several years and have had good sucess doing it that way.

Richard
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I have 6-7 different tuners in my toy box, but have narrowed down to two on my rifles. I have 5 of Mike's PDT's which I prefer for several reasons, one of which is the ease of use. But the fact is, they all do the same thing, some are just easier than others. BTW- I also have two of Gene's which also work well. Like Mike, I would not consider shooting a match without a tuner except for my Factory Class rifle, they aren't allowed.

Rick
 
'nuff said guys.'

This thread has generated a lot of new interest in tuners and that's what I hoped it would do. It has also generated some very good discussion among those that have worked very hard for years to unlock the secrets of rifle tune.

Several years ago, Bill Calfee was responsible for sparking my interest in tuners. Of course, he is a rimfire guru but he knew we centerfire benchresters could also benefit from the use of tuners and he did his best to convince us of that with articles in Precision Shooting and posts here on Benchrest Central. Unfortunately Calfee turned a lot of people off with his style of writing and promoted some theories that have since been proven false. Two that come to mind are;

1. The theory about a so called 'parallel node' which proved to be a myth. I'm sure he still believes it to this day but it is just that; a myth.

2. Stating that only the weight added forward of the muzzle was effective in tuning. I and others have proven that is not true.


But this is not to say that Bill Calfee does not know how to use a tuner. Several years ago he described perfectly in a post here on BR Central how he tunes a barrel by mixing up rounds that have a 40 to 45 fps spread in velocity. He adjusts the tuner until they all have the same point of impact and refers to this as, "my muzzle is stopped." Of course, now we all know there is no such thing as a stopped muzzle but if he wants to think and speak of it like that, so be it. I prefer to say the rifle is in tune.

If it were possible to load rounds with exactly the same muzzle velocity and absolutely identical in every way then we wouldn't have to worry about 'tune.' But we all know that is impossible. So how is it possible to get five bullets to all impact the same spot when there is sometimes as much as 35 to 40 fps difference in velocity? By cooperating with barrel vibration and taking advantage of what is known as 'Positive Compensation.'

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
I'm going back to it

Gene Beggs said:
Pete, I hear you and I know what you mean and how you feel. Stay tuned, some good things are on the horizon.

Warmest regards

Gene Beggs
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when I get back home. I am going to shoot a few more CF matches this year . I retired from running matches at the end of last year so I will have more time. I also will stop chasing club championships and the like. I hope to have fun the last few years of shooting I have left.

I still need those 220 Beggs dies. I think Mike said it's a .225 neckj.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
when I get back home. I am going to shoot a few more CF matches this year . I retired from running matches at the end of last year so I will have more time. I also will stop chasing club championships and the like. I hope to have fun the last few years of shooting I have left.

I still need those 220 Beggs dies. I think Mike said it's a .225 neckj.

Pete
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Pete, please send me your mailing address at genebeggs@cableone.net and I'll get your dies in the mail.
Glad to hear you will be shooting more matches this year.
 
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