Feedback From The Tunnel

[Tad.E]

Tad, with all due respect, rimfire shooters are the worst about over complicating tuners. Probably because of poor ammo quality/choices, magnified variables in said ammo and condition related changes such as wind drift, and a plethora of what I believe to be, bad info out there.

I chuckle when I hear people say that tuners work differently on rimfire. Two things change...in bore time and amplitude of vibration. Otherwise, the gun has no idea whether the cartridge has it's primer around the rim or in its center. In a nutshell, everything is slower and the tuner needs larger adjutments on a rimfire. By larger, I mean move the tuner no more than TWO marks at a time on a rimfire, vs 1 on a cf. Also, the range of tuner adjustment, between in tune and out of tune is about double. So, in a typical short range cf br rifle, there are almost always 4-5 marks between in tune and out, with my tuner. In rf, that's about 8-10 marks. Still, a very small and manageable window to work within without getting lost and confused with random tuner changes all over the place.

Without going into great detail as to why, I recommend starting with my tuner 1/2-1 full turn out from bottom.

Oh yes any idea that can be conceived has been around the rimfire tuner. Some make some theoretical since, most others not really.

So if it is 4-5 clicks between in and out of tune with your tuner, how are you deciding that for instance setting 20 is better than 24 or 25 or worse than setting 15? I don't know how you tuner is numbered or set up to be able to see where you are at on it so I just picked some easy numbers there to use.

I ask this because with a harrell on my rimfire rifle, I can pretty well like clock work go forward 17 clicks, or backward 17 all the way to the ends of the threads and the rifle still shoot pretty well. Just none of the other places shoot quite as well as where it is right now. I have burned way more good ammo than I want to admit making sure that this is the best setting on this thing and not just another place that shoots so-so.

Do you all see with your centerfires that there ends up being a 'best adjustment range' between a certain 4-5 clicks or does basically any 4-5 click range of the tuner all pretty well shoot about the same? I know that almost starts to get ino your conversation with Marty about getting it to shoot vs getting it in tune and I am trying to stay away from that in lieu of seeing more info on the subject.

Tad

 

[mwezell]

Oh yes any idea that can be conceived has been around the rimfire tuner. Some make some theoretical since, most others not really.

So if it is 4-5 clicks between in and out of tune with your tuner, how are you deciding that for instance setting 20 is better than 24 or 25 or worse than setting 15? I don't know how you tuner is numbered or set up to be able to see where you are at on it so I just picked some easy numbers there to use.

I ask this because with a harrell on my rimfire rifle, I can pretty well like clock work go forward 17 clicks, or backward 17 all the way to the ends of the threads and the rifle still shoot pretty well. Just none of the other places shoot quite as well as where it is right now. I have burned way more good ammo than I want to admit making sure that this is the best setting on this thing and not just another place that shoots so-so.

Do you all see with your centerfires that there ends up being a 'best adjustment range' between a certain 4-5 clicks or does basically any 4-5 click range of the tuner all pretty well shoot about the same? I know that almost starts to get ino your conversation with Marty about getting it to shoot vs getting it in tune and I am trying to stay away from that in lieu of seeing more info on the subject.

Tad

Theoretically, there will be "better" sweet spots than others but in reality, I don't see them, at least not in terms of grouping potential. I do think that tuning to where the barrel is on the upswing and near it's apex is best and will hold tune longer in that area as well as "compensate", to some degree, for velocity variations. That matters much more in long range than in short, be it rf of cf, IME.

I have very few conversations with Marty as he speaks in riddles too much. I never know what he means when saying something like your example, of "tuned or just made to shoot well". Come on...how much sense does that make? If I have a tuner, I can maintain a tune that "shoots well". All I want is for my rifle to be able to be made to shoot well...consistently and repeatably. I couldn't ask for much more than that. The notion that a gun and load can stay in perfect tune throughout wide condition changes is baseless, from a scientific standpoint, IMHO. Even if the gun was in some mythical state of stopped muzzles, the powder burn rate changes creating velocity changes. So, I don't put much faith in such things. Marty plays with various weights of tuners a lot. Weights IMO, are HUGE stabs at finding a tune.Now, if that weight change were small enough, like say a wrap of tape...then, maybe. Why not just move the tuner a mark or two and accomplish the same thing, though?

 

[pablo]

Mike, do you know of any tuners that are available for unlimited centerfire rifles? My rail barrel is 1.350" I could turn it down for one of your tuners but if I could leave pretty fat that would be preferable. I've seen many different homemade tuners on rails that are nothing more than weights but don't know how effective they are.

 

[mwezell]

Mike, do you know of any tuners that are available for unlimited centerfire rifles? My rail barrel is 1.350" I could turn it down for one of your tuners but if I could leave pretty fat that would be preferable. I've seen many different homemade tuners on rails that are nothing more than weights but don't know how effective they are.

Mine works well for the big barrels. The weight and weight adjustability are nice features when dealing with the really stiff barrels on a barrel blocked guns. I'd be happy to discuss it more by phone or pm.

 

[tunermi]

Tuner for 1.35 inch barrel

Mine works well for the big barrels. The weight and weight adjustability are nice features when dealing with the really stiff barrels on a barrel blocked guns. I'd be happy to discuss it more by phone or pm.

Pablo, get a hold of Dale Wollum's and he will make a tuner to fit your barrel.
Dale made a tuner for my rail gun last year.

tunermi

 

[mks]

Good to see that this thread is up and running again. Maybe it is appropriate at this time to talk about another concept, and that is that there are two distinct aspects of tuning. One is making groups small and round. Many tuner users have done testing that shows that with movements of a few marks one can change the shape of the group from horizontal to small to vertical to small, etc. In my testing this has been a mostly, but not entirely, consistent result. Occasionally, the change in group shape is different, for instance, horizontal to small to horizontal again. The overriding behavior is that wherever the tuner position is, small round groups are no more than a few marks away.

The other aspect is positive compensation, which Gene mentioned. This is something different, and it is not accomplished by small adjustments of the tuner. Positive compensation means that slower bullets, which leave the barrel later, are launched at a higher muzzle angle so that they tend to hit the target closer to the same point as faster bullets. This means that the muzzle angle must be rising within the range of bullet exit times of the group of shots. Calfee tried to convince us that the top of the wave, where muzzle angle is relatively stationary for a while is where the group of bullets should exit. This is obviously wrong. Some, perhaps in deference to Calfee, now say that just before the top is the right spot. This is also wrong. One can calculate for a particular bullet and load how fast the muzzle must be rising, and it is FAST, faster than some setups are capable of moving. It is more correct to say that the best point in the wave is half way between the valley and the peak, where muzzle angle is changing the fastest.

This second aspect of tuning is affected not only by the tuner mass, but also by the dynamics of the whole rifle and rest system. Here, let's make a distinction between "positive" compensation (slow bullets are launched higher) and "perfect" compensation (slow bullets are launched at the exact higher angle to strike the target at the same point as the faster bullet). Perfect compensation also depends on yardage (slow bullets need to be launched even higher to hit a 200 yard target at the same point). A ladder test with different powder charges can be used to test how perfect your compensation is. If you have perfect compensation, bullet holes will have the same elevation across all powder charges. If not, you need to change something relatively major (compared to a few marks on the tuner), like rest position, height/weight of scope, or where weight is placed in the stock.

Once you have perfect compensation at one yardage, find what you need to change to get perfect compensation at the second (and third, etc ...) yardages. If you are lucky, as I was with one rifle, a change in front rest position gave me near-perfect compensation at 100 and 200 yards.

Keith

 

[Kiwi Greg]

Oh yes any idea that can be conceived has been around the rimfire tuner. Some make some theoretical since, most others not really.

So if it is 4-5 clicks between in and out of tune with your tuner, how are you deciding that for instance setting 20 is better than 24 or 25 or worse than setting 15? I don't know how you tuner is numbered or set up to be able to see where you are at on it so I just picked some easy numbers there to use.

I ask this because with a harrell on my rimfire rifle, I can pretty well like clock work go forward 17 clicks, or backward 17 all the way to the ends of the threads and the rifle still shoot pretty well. Just none of the other places shoot quite as well as where it is right now. I have burned way more good ammo than I want to admit making sure that this is the best setting on this thing and not just another place that shoots so-so.

Do you all see with your centerfires that there ends up being a 'best adjustment range' between a certain 4-5 clicks or does basically any 4-5 click range of the tuner all pretty well shoot about the same? I know that almost starts to get ino your conversation with Marty about getting it to shoot vs getting it in tune and I am trying to stay away from that in lieu of seeing more info on the subject.

Tad

FWIW I made an adapter & put my Wollums CF tuner on my Lithgow 22LR hunting rifle converted to BR, it worked well.
So I thought if I get a "proper" 22 tuner it will work better, I got a Harrels and found like you I could move it heaps with little difference.
It wasn't as effective as the Wollums so I had a play & shortened the barrel but to no avail.
I have replaced the barrel & stubbornly stuck with the Harrels, once again it makes little difference, it may not be heavy enough ?
I made another adapter & put my Wollums on the new barrel & it works great
Really looking forward to receiving some more tuners shortly to try on my CF bench rifles & getting one of Mikes with 7/8 x 32 thread one day to compare

 

[Tad.E]

FWIW I made an adapter & put my Wollums CF tuner on my Lithgow 22LR hunting rifle converted to BR, it worked well.
So I thought if I get a "proper" 22 tuner it will work better, I got a Harrels and found like you I could move it heaps with little difference.
It wasn't as effective as the Wollums so I had a play & shortened the barrel but to no avail.
I have replaced the barrel & stubbornly stuck with the Harrels, once again it makes little difference, it may not be heavy enough ?
I made another adapter & put my Wollums on the new barrel & it works great
Really looking forward to receiving some more tuners shortly to try on my CF bench rifles & getting one of Mikes with 7/8 x 32 thread one day to compare

How heavy is the wollums? I see about 50% of people using extra weight but also see about 40% using a bare harrell tuner. Last 10% is a few with a cut down weight shell. Riverside machine makes a nice screw in weight set for the harrell. Did you ever try one of tubes with weight on the harrell? It's become pretty popular for people to use.

Tad

 

[Kiwi Greg]

How heavy is the wollums? I see about 50% of people using extra weight but also see about 40% using a bare harrell tuner. Last 10% is a few with a cut down weight shell. Riverside machine makes a nice screw in weight set for the harrell. Did you ever try one of tubes with weight on the harrell? It's become pretty popular for people to use.

Tad

I haven't tried the weight tube on the Harrels, I would like too, I must try to find one, thanks.

The Woolums is 4oz

 

[K Hope]

So Calfee is wrong about setting his tuners once and then not moving them? I understand that he has done pretty well selling rimfire rifles with tuners. Do you know anyone that claims that he can do that with a CF tuner? Yes they both change tune when you move the weight. Beyond that, if you believe Calfee and the results that he claims, then there are significant differences. I do not believe that anyone claims that he can not change his load and not change his tuner and keep a CF rifle in tune.

Boyd,

Possibly some RF powders are less temperature sensitive than the powders we are used to looking at.

To me finding and keeping tune is not a one size fits all and it’s more about initial burn rates. Tuner or no tuner you have to know your powder, primers, bullets et cetera.

Ken

 

[Boyd Allen]

In short range benchrest, tuners are about being able to make small adjustment at times when making a load adjustment would be inconvenient (like in the middle of a match) and broadening nodes. There are other things that influence node width. Friends that have a lot of experience with both 133 and LT32 tell me that the latter's nodes are noticeably broader. My point was and is that the expectations of what they will be able to accomplish in rimfire and in short range group CF benchrest are considerably different, for reasons that are quite conspicuous. Years back someone spent the money to try to use the same sort of barrel profile and tuner setup that Calfee was using and writing about and could not make the rifle shoot even though he was an experienced shooter who had had success with a conventional configuration. The whole exercise was a waste of money and time based on reassurances that turned out not to be true. Now, all these years later when I read that Tuners can be made to work the same way for center fire as the have in rim fire, I feel that someone needs to speak up and point out that although they share the feature of having movable weights that influence tune in predictable ways that there are substantial differences that do not allow wholesale importation of configuration, manner of use, or expectations from one to the other. I have some experience with CF tuners, of several types. When you move the weights the groups change, sometimes for the better. Unfortunately none can read wind flags.

 

[JerrySharrett]

Adding to the confusion....

In the enterfire world where the shooter already has the option of changing the powder amount or type, changing bullet jam or jump, changing neck tension, or even changing the bullet itself as weight or nose profile, a barrel tuner is another item to add to the confusion of the tuning process.

There are tuners whose design is to put this weight shift ahead of the muzzle or behind the muzzle.

Tuners generally in two weight classes, under about 6 ounces and over about 6 ounces. Normally over 6 ounce tuners, when used on Light Varmint (10.5 pound max) require taking weight off the assembly, generally by using a smaller diameter barrel or shortening the existing barrel.

One of the “old Texas trio”, I forget, TJ, Harold, or Red, proved that many not so good shooting barrels could sometimes e improved by shortening the barrel. Many times shortening the barrel, changing its vibration pattern did improve that barrels performance. Most of the first usage of centerfire tuners was to take a known “good” load and use the tuner to try to improve that barrels performance. This method was a “set and forget” tuner application. Today’s users seem to be more likely to use tuner setting as another element in the tuning process.

A main drawback in centerfire tuner application is that each shot, by inducing wear on the bore, changes that barrels useful life because most centerfire barrels have a Benchrest accuracy lifetime of about 600 to 900 rounds. Whereas a rimfire barrels Benchrest accuracy lifetime is of a few to several thousand rounds. Meaning, in centerfire, by the time the tuner is set to its optimum the barrel is shot out.

.

 

[mwezell]

Jerry, actually, I find tuners to greatly reduce barrel wear by simplifying the tuning process rather than complicating it.

Its only more complicated if you make it that way. It usually works out by going with a known good load for a cartridge and fine tuning it. Then just use the tuner to maintain tune

 

[Richard]

RIght on the money Mike.

Usually within 20 rds down the bbl you can have it tuned, sometimes less.
This really holds true when using the same reamer on multiple bbls. If you have taken good notes previously you pretty well know the seating depth.

Mike, have you played much with different barrel lengths and how they tune?
What I have noticed is a longer bbl typically has a bigger window where it shoots good, but at the same time it will shoot worse when out of tune.
Making weight in a 10.5# really has kept people from playing with the longer lengths but I believe it's worth looking at.

Richard

 

[mwezell]

Usually within 20 rds down the bbl you can have it tuned, sometimes less.
This really holds true when using the same reamer on multiple bbls. If you have taken good notes previously you pretty well know the seating depth.

Mike, have you played much with different barrel lengths and how they tune?
What I have noticed is a longer bbl typically has a bigger window where it shoots good, but at the same time it will shoot worse when out of tune.
Making weight in a 10.5# really has kept people from playing with the longer lengths but I believe it's worth looking at.

Richard

Yes I have, and have found the same as you. I've also tested tuner weights of up to a pound, to create more muzzle deflection on stiffer barrels. Muzzle deflection is much easier to measure than frequency and Lilja has a useful barrel stiffness calculator on his site.

The idea here being, making a stiff barrel act like a longer, less stiff one. I've also cut a hinge point in barrels to do essentially the same thing, by turning down a section of the barrel.

Adding more weight and hinging the barrel, both have the effect of a longer, less stiff barrel.

I'm currently shooting two barrels that are about 26" Hv contours on my short range rifle...a 6 Grendel and a 30 Major (Grendel). Both are amongst the best barrels I've ever tested.

 

[JerrySharrett]

Jerry, actually, I find tuners to greatly reduce barrel wear by simplifying the tuning process rather than complicating it.

Its only more complicated if you make it that way. It usually works out by going with a known good load for a cartridge and fine tuning it. Then just use the tuner to maintain tune

Mike, but you shoot score where extreme accuracy is not as much required as it is in centerfire group. You can get by with a barrel/load that would agg in a group about 0.350”. In varmint/sporter group, in a big shoot, a 0.180” agg may not get a shooter into the top 20. Is isn’t apples to apples ?!

.

 

[Richard]

Jerry, I do

shoot group and the agg'ing potential is there with out a doubt. The discussion of score vs group isn't what this thread should be centered on.

Mike, most of my LV bbl's weigh around 80oz and have shot them from the "normal" 21" length to 29"
I have fluted over 30oz out of a bbl and it shot fine. Right now I am shooting 24-25 and fluting around 14oz out of them. Works great. A long, more flexible bbl sure seems to work hand in hand with a tuner extremely well.

Richard

 

[mwezell]

shoot group and the agg'ing potential is there with out a doubt. The discussion of score vs group isn't what this thread should be centered on.

Mike, most of my LV bbl's weigh around 80oz and have shot them from the "normal" 21" length to 29"
I have fluted over 30oz out of a bbl and it shot fine. Right now I am shooting 24-25 and fluting around 14oz out of them. Works great. A long, more flexible bbl sure seems to work hand in hand with a tuner extremely well.

Richard

I agree.

 

[mwezell]

Mike, but you shoot score where extreme accuracy is not as much required as it is in centerfire group. You can get by with a barrel/load that would agg in a group about 0.350”. In varmint/sporter group, in a big shoot, a 0.180” agg may not get a shooter into the top 20. Is isn’t apples to apples ?!

.

Jerry, I truly hope you are not being serious with any of that jibberish.

I've heard it said before and believe it..."all score shooters shoot group, but not all group shooters shoot score."

This is very true if you tune by shooting groups. Obviously, if you really think a .3 gun can be competitive in score, you fall into the latter category.

You should come try a UBR match. But bring your best stuff and leave the .3 hunting rifle at the house.

 

[Greyfox]

Mike, but you shoot score where extreme accuracy is not as much required as it is in centerfire group. You can get by with a barrel/load that would agg in a group about 0.350”. In varmint/sporter group, in a big shoot, a 0.180” agg may not get a shooter into the top 20. Is isn’t apples to apples !

.

Bless your heart Jerry,
your avatar must be accurate if you think you can win score matches with a rifle that only has the potential to shoot .350 groups. I know you have shot at least a few score matches as you were at Rocky Road sometime back when I was there. But if you are going to comment on score matches you probably should have a little more experience. To win a shooter not only has to have a rifle that is in tune, he must know how to drive it to individual POI.

Rick