geo.ulrich
Member
Geo is the man.
sure wish I had one of those chambering pipes Geo- just sayin
Dusty. If you want one let me know I will get it to you somehow maybe earl will come up again and can bring it to you..
Dusty. If you want one let me know I will get it to you somehow maybe earl will come up again and can bring it to you..
geo.ulrich
Member
geo.ulrich
Member
try the n.b.r.s.a. Or the i.b.s. Web site this is where records are listed by the way i guess i need to give congrats to wayne shaw for potential recored 250-11 x 300 yds. Lets see who's bullet dies did he use,, oh yeah ones i made .....george the lemming
After all is said and done test your work with a indicator. ZERO is ZERO It doesn't matter how you got there.....
Different ways of doing things depending on who is running the machine and what machine they are working with.
There is no place in the record book that says how a barrel has to be chambered. The match is won by the best target.
Hal
Different ways of doing things depending on who is running the machine and what machine they are working with.
There is no place in the record book that says how a barrel has to be chambered. The match is won by the best target.
Hal
L
Lucky Shooter A
Guest
Thanks for the replies
Wow ! Ask a couple of dumb questions and get an education from some of the best in the BR business.
I chambered the barrel through the headstock for a L46 Sako and the spider held-----never lost my setup and wound up with a heavy 221 FB barrel at 20.5".
BTW----the much discussed 16 TPI threads worked OK.
I have no objections to using the steady rest-----have watched a friend turn out some very good barrels through the steady. I'm fairly green at this and haven't learned to use the steady rest but figure I'll eventually have to learn by doing.
Al, I'm impressed with your indicator kludge-----pure Al, but didn't see any black pipe. I just don't like the idea of my .0001" indicator hanging on the frame with a magnetic base that could be knocked off.
Thanks again.
A. Weldy
Wow ! Ask a couple of dumb questions and get an education from some of the best in the BR business.
I chambered the barrel through the headstock for a L46 Sako and the spider held-----never lost my setup and wound up with a heavy 221 FB barrel at 20.5".
BTW----the much discussed 16 TPI threads worked OK.
I have no objections to using the steady rest-----have watched a friend turn out some very good barrels through the steady. I'm fairly green at this and haven't learned to use the steady rest but figure I'll eventually have to learn by doing.
Al, I'm impressed with your indicator kludge-----pure Al, but didn't see any black pipe. I just don't like the idea of my .0001" indicator hanging on the frame with a magnetic base that could be knocked off.
Thanks again.
A. Weldy
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
If you want to chamber in a steadyrest you can approach, key word, approach, the accuracy of chambering through the headstock, but you can't equal the alignment accuracy that can be achieved by through the headstock chambering.
There are three major methods used by benchrest gunsmiths, through the headstock chambering, in the headstock chambering and chambering using a steadyrest.
The through the headstock chambering is by far the most rigid and geometrically stable part of an engine lathe, period!! Any time you get away from that part of the lathe you are getting into setups that compromise your ability to accurately align a barrel in its most critical areas, the chamber throat area and the bullet exit point.
Benchrest barrel chambering in a steadyrest by some benchrest gunsmiths were by gunsmiths who had smaller lathes that did not have sufficient spindle bore diameter to allow through the headstock chambering. In times past many of these gunsmiths used South Bend 9", Atlas, Clausing-Colchesters, Emco, Enco and such that had spindle bores of less than 1".
Today quite a few benchrest gunsmiths use engine lathes that are so long through the headstock, such as Grizzlys, Harrisons, Victors and such that require a bushing within the spindle bore to support the muzzle end. This muzzle-bushing setup does allow the smith to accurately align the chambers critical area though.
The only benchrest gunsmith that was referred to by the title of "Great Gunsmith" was Seeley Masker and he had THREE lathes that allowed him to chamber through the headstock. Seelys son, Gerry, still owns those lathes.
There are three major methods used by benchrest gunsmiths, through the headstock chambering, in the headstock chambering and chambering using a steadyrest.
The through the headstock chambering is by far the most rigid and geometrically stable part of an engine lathe, period!! Any time you get away from that part of the lathe you are getting into setups that compromise your ability to accurately align a barrel in its most critical areas, the chamber throat area and the bullet exit point.
Benchrest barrel chambering in a steadyrest by some benchrest gunsmiths were by gunsmiths who had smaller lathes that did not have sufficient spindle bore diameter to allow through the headstock chambering. In times past many of these gunsmiths used South Bend 9", Atlas, Clausing-Colchesters, Emco, Enco and such that had spindle bores of less than 1".
Today quite a few benchrest gunsmiths use engine lathes that are so long through the headstock, such as Grizzlys, Harrisons, Victors and such that require a bushing within the spindle bore to support the muzzle end. This muzzle-bushing setup does allow the smith to accurately align the chambers critical area though.
The only benchrest gunsmith that was referred to by the title of "Great Gunsmith" was Seeley Masker and he had THREE lathes that allowed him to chamber through the headstock. Seelys son, Gerry, still owns those lathes.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Very nice South Bend Heavy 10 Chet.
B.Larson
New member
Watch how Kelby`s does it.......... Steady Rest...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KszCVSLU_qw
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Bill, I have stood beside Greg Walley many times as he as used this setup. This setup is used by them because they do not have a lathe in the entire shop, that I have ever seen, period, that would permit THROUGH the headstock chambering!!! They do have capability to perform IN the headstock chambering.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
You have to admit that by the readings shown on the indicator in this video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CZaBO8jNA&feature=youtu.be
there is not much inferior about the final result.
Boyd
You have to admit that by the readings shown on the indicator in this video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CZaBO8jNA&feature=youtu.be
there is not much inferior about the final result.
Boyd
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Boyd, pay attention to the video. The indicator stylus ball is running on the chamber base mostly (some of the chamber body, maybe). At that point it can only show one of two things:
1) It can show out of roundness of the chamber. You would be surprised how many chambers are out-of-round.
2) It can show if the chamber base is not running concentric with the turned journal that the steadyrest is running on.
It, however, does not show ANYTHING about the o most critical area of the installed chamber, the relationship of the merger of the chamber neck/leade with the barrel bore at that point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
coyotechet
Chet
Boyd Chamber run out in the zero is always a good thing. It is possible to have zero chamber run out and still be as much as .010 off center of the true bore. Chamber alignment to true bore axis is very important. It is what is needed to have the bullet start .0001 or less to the true bore axis.
At least that is what I like to think.
Chet
At least that is what I like to think.
Chet
coyotechet
Chet
oops! should read first before I submitted my last post because I only said what Jerry just said.
Chet
Chet
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
I am not saying a great chambering job can not be done in a steadyrest. Many have and many records have been set with barrels chambered with this method. Many HOF points have been won by shooters using the steadyrest method. All I am saying is that the most near-prefect alignment that can be obtained would be with the chambering through the headstock method.....UNLESS the gunsmith would use an adjustable sleeve for the steadytest to run on AND that sleeve needs to be perfectly round.
On an engine lathe using $18,000 spindle bearings like the Monarch EE, or, sleeved oil-bearing bushings like is used in the South Bend Heavy 10 and a few, very few, others can offer near-perfect concentricity and cyindricity. A steadyrest is simply a crutch and sometimes not a good crutch!
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Some of the concerns I am getting from PM's is that in using the through the headstock method the barrel may be bent or in a strain from the spider being shifted to align the muzzle. True, this can happen if the end being chambered is chucked so it can't pivot as the spider is being adjusted. This could induce a temporary deflection of the barrel. But rest assured when the barrel is unchucked the barrel will go back to its original relaxed condition. You are not moving the barrel enough to induct a permanent bend.
Think about this though. If you rigidly chuck the muzzle end while the barrel is suspended in a steadyrest, AND, the rotational center of the barrel being supported and constrained by the steadyrest is out of line with the spindles rotational center then every time that barrel turns 360 degrees a stress is being introduced. The final result of this easily performed setup error is that unknown stresses have been introduced. The result is that as this barrel heats up and cools off from firing those residual stresses can shift the bullets exit point. This flexing operation is called "work hardening", just like bending a wire till it breaks.
Think about this though. If you rigidly chuck the muzzle end while the barrel is suspended in a steadyrest, AND, the rotational center of the barrel being supported and constrained by the steadyrest is out of line with the spindles rotational center then every time that barrel turns 360 degrees a stress is being introduced. The final result of this easily performed setup error is that unknown stresses have been introduced. The result is that as this barrel heats up and cools off from firing those residual stresses can shift the bullets exit point. This flexing operation is called "work hardening", just like bending a wire till it breaks.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
Don't most of those who chamber through the headstock make some provision so that the barrel can pivot in the chuck's jaws? I have seen many versions of this, the simplest being a ring of heavy copper wire between the jaws and the barrel. With this, or something similar, and four opposing screws in the spider, I fail to see where there would be significant bending issues. On the steady rest, if journals are turned at both ends of the barrel that are concentric with the bore, and given the short contact in the steady rest, and at the muzzle, how would there be a problem? Just askin'.
Boyd
Don't most of those who chamber through the headstock make some provision so that the barrel can pivot in the chuck's jaws? I have seen many versions of this, the simplest being a ring of heavy copper wire between the jaws and the barrel. With this, or something similar, and four opposing screws in the spider, I fail to see where there would be significant bending issues. On the steady rest, if journals are turned at both ends of the barrel that are concentric with the bore, and given the short contact in the steady rest, and at the muzzle, how would there be a problem? Just askin'.
Boyd
Joe Woosman
Member
In trying to stay as PC as I can, I propose we nominate Mike the forums "special needs" gunsmith and give 'em a participation trophy...
B.Larson
New member
Stool....... ( real name..??)..... I posted the way kelbys does it,and McMillan and myself.....(on long barrels) ....you stated yourself " in your limited expierience"...lets leave it at that..... you`ll learn more by listening rather than insulting people who do it for a living....
my real name is
bill larson