geo.ulrich
Member
Greg they won't get it and yes I use a steady rest and indicate both ends lets see if that can be figured out...see ya in may George
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Greg they won't get it and yes I use a steady rest and indicate both ends lets see if that can be figured out...see ya in may George
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Putting a barrel through the headstock and securing it on both ends with adjustable work holders (a adjustable chuck on the end to be worked and an adjustable "spider" on the outboard end) gives the ability to dial in the chamber neck and the muzzle bore. This is the best that can be accomplished in truing the barrel.
How can you true the chamber neck in a steady rest? I can understand using a piloted center to true the end bore before turning the steady rest surface, but how about the curve between the end bore on some barrels and the chamber neck which is critical to aligning the chamber to the freebore/leade merge point? I have come across a few barrels that have as much as 0.003" curve in that distance.
Dave Tooley
Active member
Jerry ask George how to do it.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Hey Toot, I thought I just did.
Come to River Bend and shoot with me. Jeff said Lisa is having surgery and he can't make it.
Dave Tooley
Active member
Jerry I would love to but I already have plans. Hope to see you soon.
I'm guessing Jerry's talking about a PPC here, on a thick, short BR-tapered 22 or 6mm blank............
Try a 30-06 or an Ultra-Mag or a less standard 7MM or 8MM barrel and see some real runout
or, recently, I've been playing with 50's........Or try trusting a fluted 30" hunting rifle tube.....
Nahhh, we "don't get it," not A'Tall.....
between centers that is.....
LOL
al
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
I'm guessing Jerry's talking about a PPC here, on a thick, short BR-tapered 22 or 6mm blank............
Try a 30-06 or an Ultra-Mag or a less standard 7MM or 8MM barrel and see some real runout
Or try trusting a fluted 30" hunting rifle tube.....
Nahhh, we "don't get it," not A'Tall.....
between centers that is.....
LOL
al
I have done 25/264 Win Mag Improved chambers in 28" Douglas barrels this way does that count?
Talk about a great 600 yard deer round, the 25/264 Whammy (WMI) is!!
Greg Walley
Member
Jerry,
I don’t really have the time to put a video demonstration together, but if you can read my post #10 here for a simple explanation: http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?87931-kelbly-video-on-accurate-shooter&p=718373&highlight=
I don’t normally like to interject or get into the fray on these forums…or start arguments just to make noise. I know that good quality barrel work can be accomplished with “through the headstock” methods, but when I see claims that a well-established machining procedure is inferior to some of the convoluted ways that hobbyists dream up to chamber a rifle barrel, I feel inclined to dispel those myths.
geo.ulrich
Member
amen, apparently there must be only one way to do this, the sad part is people look for info. that are trying to learn and are lets say misguided by information they are given. Seems funny nobody has an original thought, its follow what so and so does or IT WILL NOT WORK.
geo.ulrich
Member
Go back to post # 7 it says there is NO WAY to make it run true...
geo.ulrich
Member
So what does reamer do when inside headstock when its indicated at what ever point? still the same indicate in headstock or steadyrest still needs to be bored so back end follows pilot. while we're at it what happens in front of where you indicate bore is still bowed, so chamber is straight, throat is straight but bore is bowed in front huh ?
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Greg, you and I can further discuss this in May. My disliking the piloted center with the journal turned from that point is that in a really crooked barrel (crooked at the butt end) the finished chamber neck area may still be running out 0.002"-0.003". Even with a snugly piloted reamer there may still be misalignment at the chamber neck/freebore area. I don't have confidence in a barrel that has two leade ramps of one length and two of another.
In situations where some of you have lathes with headstocks too thick to let the barrel stick out and have to run it in an inboard bushing, that is the best you can do. What I have against that method is that when changing barrels the POI of the new barrel may be off 4"-8" from the previous barrel. Being able to indicate the bore on both ends the barrel change doesn't change the POI but a couple of inches.
As to getting into frays and starting arguments, I hate that too!!! And to think, John Lewis accused me of being opinionated???
(can't wait for my surprise)
OK..... you've been honest here re your methods. You've been a big proponent of the long stemmed test indicator. And you've posted plenny pix..... care to share a pic of the indicator you used to dial in the chamber and throat on this guy? If it's commercially available I don't know where!
Exactly how did you know where to aim to hit the throat on a .264 Win Mag?
Could you make 5 of them that use the same FL die? Will they interchange loaded rounds? Years apart?
(And this question is for JERRY because he DOES know what I'm asking. He doesn't choose to agree with GG but he's convinced me he DOES understand the methodology, just doesn't subscribe to it. Doesn't believe in it. Jerry Sharrett doesn't blow smoke up my butt with insinuations.....)
I'll try my best to understand
al
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
OK..... you've been honest here re your methods. You've been a big proponent of the long stemmed test indicator. And you've posted plenny pix..... care to share a pic of the indicator you used to dial in the chamber and throat on this guy? If it's commercially available I don't know where! Al, its just a long stem, I forgot from where, nut I think it was from www.longislandindicator.com
Exactly how did you know where to aim to hit the throat on a .264 Win Mag? I ran the indicator stem in the measured amount to where the chamber throat front would finish. These are on Rem 700 actions so it just has to reach about 2 1/2"
Could you make 5 of them that use the same FL die? Will they interchange loaded rounds? Years apart? Dunno?? I have only done 4 of these and only one was a repeat on the same action. The other 2 are in NW Kansas and still working.
(And this question is for JERRY because he DOES know what I'm asking. He doesn't choose to agree with GG but he's convinced me he DOES understand the methodology, just doesn't subscribe to it. Doesn't believe in it. Jerry Sharrett doesn't blow smoke up my butt with insinuations.....)
I'll try my best to understand
al
Posting a pix, sorry but I am packing and loading for the River Bend shoot and doing a bunch of other stuff. The Interapid stem is just a longer one than the one I use for a PPC. It measures 2 7/8" long so it is not a 1:1 reading, but if I get to read zero I'm pretty close.
Thanks Jerry, fair enough.
Greg Walley
Member
Actually Jerry, your reasons for using your method are the same reasons why I prefer using the steady rest. I can avoid cutting elliptical chambers and tenons that aren’t perpendicular with the receiver face by establishing a true center in relation to where the pilot registers during reaming. By machining two journals at the ends of the barrel to be true to the bore – the steady rest, chuck jaws, and quill of the tailstock will now be perpendicular to each other and the center axis of the barrel…rather than the barrel rotating around an arbitrary point in space as it sometimes can when doing the job through the headstock.
For example, we installed a dozen HV Bartlein 1-11.25” 5-R barrels on rifles that we sent to our mutual buddy in Thiland last year and test fired them – removing and installing a single bore-sighted scope from one rifle to the next. Without moving the windage and elevation adjustments, EACH RIFLE shot within 2 MOA from the original POI. Incidentally, these were HV BR rifles chambered in 308 Win. CIP specs. With Lapua 185g factory ammo, three shot groups (after the initial sighting shot) with EVERY RIFLE were all under 0.3 MOA. I'm still in disbelief that factory ammo in a standard chamber shot that well.
Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.
coyotechet
Chet
Hello to all
I by no way am a machinist. But have been doing barrel chambering since 1968. Was taught by a really top quality machinist using a steady rest and yes turning two journals at the ends of the barrel with a centering tool (later I started using a piloted center from PTG). I started shooting Benchrest in 1987 and got more interested in doing accurate barrel work and asking lots of question on how to chamber with a steady rest. But almost never could I get the bore to indicate under .0003 after cutting the journals with the PTG piloted center most of the time it would be closer to .0005 T.I.R. and I was not happy with that so I paid other gunsmiths to chamber my barrels. Then around 1994 /1995 I started hearing about setting up thru the headstock. But my lathe was 9A 54” South bend with only a ¾” hole so I had to come up with a way to do this thru the head stock. So I built a head stock for the tail end of my lathe (see picture). I was now able to indicate the bore to under .0002 every time and used the four jaw as the cats head with a trued journal in the four jaw and indicated both ends. Chambered barrels the way for a while and took a lot of first places but was a heck of a lot of work this way. I found a really nice Heavy 10 and started doing all barrel work thru the head stock and using an interapid 312B-15 with 2.780 needle to indicate the throat in then use a PTG Grizzly rod and a Interapid .0001 to double check the T.I.R. of both the throat and the very chamber end to .0001. This allows me to have the bore for the to be cut chamber 99% plus square the to the bed ways of the lathe and the chamber to the bore. At the cats head end the barrel does rotate around an arbitrary point in space but I am not doing any cutting on that end at this time. I then turn the barrel around and indicate the first 2.500 inches of the barrel square the to the barrel bore and bed ways again use both the interapid 312B-15 and the PTG Grizzly rod to .0001 T.I.R. or under. This allows me the cut the crown 99% or better square to the bore. I know that many good rifle smiths use the steady rest with superior results. But I am not going to change my way using thru the headstock because this is how I get the superior results.
Chet
I by no way am a machinist. But have been doing barrel chambering since 1968. Was taught by a really top quality machinist using a steady rest and yes turning two journals at the ends of the barrel with a centering tool (later I started using a piloted center from PTG). I started shooting Benchrest in 1987 and got more interested in doing accurate barrel work and asking lots of question on how to chamber with a steady rest. But almost never could I get the bore to indicate under .0003 after cutting the journals with the PTG piloted center most of the time it would be closer to .0005 T.I.R. and I was not happy with that so I paid other gunsmiths to chamber my barrels. Then around 1994 /1995 I started hearing about setting up thru the headstock. But my lathe was 9A 54” South bend with only a ¾” hole so I had to come up with a way to do this thru the head stock. So I built a head stock for the tail end of my lathe (see picture). I was now able to indicate the bore to under .0002 every time and used the four jaw as the cats head with a trued journal in the four jaw and indicated both ends. Chambered barrels the way for a while and took a lot of first places but was a heck of a lot of work this way. I found a really nice Heavy 10 and started doing all barrel work thru the head stock and using an interapid 312B-15 with 2.780 needle to indicate the throat in then use a PTG Grizzly rod and a Interapid .0001 to double check the T.I.R. of both the throat and the very chamber end to .0001. This allows me to have the bore for the to be cut chamber 99% plus square the to the bed ways of the lathe and the chamber to the bore. At the cats head end the barrel does rotate around an arbitrary point in space but I am not doing any cutting on that end at this time. I then turn the barrel around and indicate the first 2.500 inches of the barrel square the to the barrel bore and bed ways again use both the interapid 312B-15 and the PTG Grizzly rod to .0001 T.I.R. or under. This allows me the cut the crown 99% or better square to the bore. I know that many good rifle smiths use the steady rest with superior results. But I am not going to change my way using thru the headstock because this is how I get the superior results.
Chet
geo.ulrich
Member
And the winner is Chet using a sleeve on the outside of barrel ( I use a tube full length with screws at each end to adjust throat and IN FRONT OF THROAT TRUE) gee that can't be done. all the hobbiest should listen to 40 yrs. of tool making they might actually learn something. As for indicating here in the real world we are not fond of changing lengths of tips and not knowing what resolution you are actually getting so federal gage amplifier model 230p-121 gage head #ehe 1010 standard tip length 20 mm or .787 extended tips ept 1059-w5 they come in a ratio 1-1, 1-2 up to 1-5 or 5x's .787 this takes amplifier at .00002 and gives you .0001 resolution. Al by the way I wasn't trying to pick on you but what you said was not correct, Mr. Stool I gave up drinking many years ago and I guess I am not to confused after all. Hope you have learned something.....
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Well, off to the hitherlands of Dawsonville GA as soon as I finish loading.
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