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Carp
Guest
How many of you really like to shoot in the wind, deal with the wind or just strictly avoid it? This stuff may just be effecting our sports and the clubs that sanction them. Any thoughts?
Carp
Carp
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bugs
Guest
Carp, I can shoot alot higher scores when the wind is a pretty constant 5 to 10 mph. In still conditions I Can;t tell where the bullet will go or whats influencing it. My opinion only.
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indwanderer
Guest
And I thought you were listening to me
Carp didnt you learn anything from our talks???
A. You knew that the wind was bad up there before you went
B. You won a State Tournament with a low agg but you won...Thats what counts!
C. And I guess congrats is in order!!
D. Most clubs that sanction matches know how their ranges will shoot before they sanction them so if they shoot at a wind blown club then they should know that attendance will be low....because no one wants to hurt their agg
......I never cared I just shot
E. Get better at wind shooting......How many times have I told you to practice when its windy not always when its calm...?
F. You should already know that the best shooters are wind shooters......How many time have I told you that??
G. What do I know .......I am retired!!!
MD
Carp didnt you learn anything from our talks???
A. You knew that the wind was bad up there before you went
B. You won a State Tournament with a low agg but you won...Thats what counts!
C. And I guess congrats is in order!!
D. Most clubs that sanction matches know how their ranges will shoot before they sanction them so if they shoot at a wind blown club then they should know that attendance will be low....because no one wants to hurt their agg
......I never cared I just shotE. Get better at wind shooting......How many times have I told you to practice when its windy not always when its calm...?
F. You should already know that the best shooters are wind shooters......How many time have I told you that??
G. What do I know .......I am retired!!!
MD
dankillough
New member
I prefer to shoot with some wind. My range is in West Texas, so a calm day has 10-15 mph winds. We usually have calm nights, but during the day the wind almost always blows. I guess I prefer shooting in the wind because that is what I am used to. Many shooters will not come to my range because of the wind, and that is frustrating. But, I can not blame them they are just doing what the rules allow. IMHO shooting in the wind is more work. I believe shooting well in the calm takes some skill, but it is mainly about how good your gun is shooting. I am not trying to take anything away from people that shoot good in the calm because it takes a great deal of skill and work to get a gun tuned properly and to find the right ammo. I believe that a good gun with a great shooter will win in the wind, but it takes a great gun to win in the calm.
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J Pappas
Guest
?????????
Carp, I don't guess I understand what you are trying to say. If you are in Texas and you want to shoot , you are going to have to shoot in the wind. I think most places around the country are the same. I don't see the people that are trying to win the A-Line driving 300 or 400 miles to a match, then not shooting. If people don't want to shoot because it is windy, how are you going to change that?
Carp, I don't guess I understand what you are trying to say. If you are in Texas and you want to shoot , you are going to have to shoot in the wind. I think most places around the country are the same. I don't see the people that are trying to win the A-Line driving 300 or 400 miles to a match, then not shooting. If people don't want to shoot because it is windy, how are you going to change that?
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Jerry Luck
Guest
James remember the wind is your friend, it helps you, if you don't like to shoot in the wind, I just wouldn't shoot, just stay home S O L J
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Carp
Guest
Mickey,
That is not what I'm trying to figure out. It could care less that the wind was bad for me this past weekend. The problem is a certain number of clubs have extremely low attendance this year because they are know to have a bit of wind. It seems that folks are becoming a little choosy on where they shoot because of it. It seems to me that supporting the clubs that hold these matches is important. I know one club in southern Indiana will probably not run next year because they had 7 shooters at their club tournament. My question is to those who either shoot in it, deal with it (that's me I don't like to shoot in it but if I have to I do) or those that just flat refuse to go on match day because the conditions are bad. Just looking for input on this.
Carp
That is not what I'm trying to figure out. It could care less that the wind was bad for me this past weekend. The problem is a certain number of clubs have extremely low attendance this year because they are know to have a bit of wind. It seems that folks are becoming a little choosy on where they shoot because of it. It seems to me that supporting the clubs that hold these matches is important. I know one club in southern Indiana will probably not run next year because they had 7 shooters at their club tournament. My question is to those who either shoot in it, deal with it (that's me I don't like to shoot in it but if I have to I do) or those that just flat refuse to go on match day because the conditions are bad. Just looking for input on this.
Carp
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B. Harvey
Guest
I go with the intention of shooting a match and never think about if the conditions will be good or bad. If they are good, or bad, they are the same for everyone on that relay. I have shot some of my best and worse targets in a calm, and in switchy winds. If the wind determines the choice of shooting a match, or not, then in my opinion, that person needs to take up a different sport. Where would Harry, DJ and Kirk be if they did not shoot in the wind?
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DonMatzeder
Guest
I wouldn't blame the wind for poor attendance. Gas prices are the culprit. If clubs make it possible to get a lot of targets for their gas dollar by coodinating with other clubs or having several matches at their range on a weekend, the shooters will come. Some areas are more remote than others and they will never have large attendance. I don't beleave the Indiana club you mentioned is in that catagory. Was there something else going on that weekend? Was there a larger match within 250 miles? Wind and unfair wind are two different things. Some ranges are so different from one end to the other that you know who will win when you draw benches...and some of those don't bother to draw with the locals haveing their favorite bench (do you think it may be the honey hole). I've seen that a couple of times and won't go back to those ranges at all.
Actually, there was a coordinated match approx 10 or so miles away that evening that drew better attendance than the club tournament. I would say wind is not the problem at that particular range, but there may be a reason that shooters chose to stay away. I think the problem there is mostly the mirage.
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Carp
Guest
Don,
You're mistaken, the club that had that tournament is less than 10 miles from Livonia. Livonia had 15 for their club match that evening. Washington County has always had less than Livonia though, I don't argue that. But a tournament to get under your belt.....to qualify for 40 targets, 2 tournaments.....Borden doesn't shoot a tournament......? I would say that Livonia gets 60% of their shooters from less than an hours drive (someone help me here because I think that percentage is much higher). Southern Indiana isn't my point though, the state of Michigan is. Hillsdale used to get 25 -30 shooters for a tournament.....13 this year....wind.....1 agg over 2000.
B. Harvey,
You are correct. Where would Harry, DJ and Kirk be if they did not shoot in the wind? They do, without question.
James Pappas,
You are correct. Those trying to win the A-line that drive 300-400 miles or more and not shoot in the wind doesn't occur. They shoot anyways.
Everyone else,
Do you THINK about that 60 minute or less drive to shoot on bad days. I don't! Do you think about the 2-3 hour drive to shoot on bad days. I don't.
Roger Von Ahrens touched on a point earlier this season that I understand better now. People are being rewarded for not shooting on bad days. Participation is critical. I would love to hear from Harry, DJ and Kirk on this. I would like to hear their concerns for this issue. This doesn't have to be a rules issue. It should be a competitors issue.
You're mistaken, the club that had that tournament is less than 10 miles from Livonia. Livonia had 15 for their club match that evening. Washington County has always had less than Livonia though, I don't argue that. But a tournament to get under your belt.....to qualify for 40 targets, 2 tournaments.....Borden doesn't shoot a tournament......? I would say that Livonia gets 60% of their shooters from less than an hours drive (someone help me here because I think that percentage is much higher). Southern Indiana isn't my point though, the state of Michigan is. Hillsdale used to get 25 -30 shooters for a tournament.....13 this year....wind.....1 agg over 2000.
B. Harvey,
You are correct. Where would Harry, DJ and Kirk be if they did not shoot in the wind? They do, without question.
James Pappas,
You are correct. Those trying to win the A-line that drive 300-400 miles or more and not shoot in the wind doesn't occur. They shoot anyways.
Everyone else,
Do you THINK about that 60 minute or less drive to shoot on bad days. I don't! Do you think about the 2-3 hour drive to shoot on bad days. I don't.
Roger Von Ahrens touched on a point earlier this season that I understand better now. People are being rewarded for not shooting on bad days. Participation is critical. I would love to hear from Harry, DJ and Kirk on this. I would like to hear their concerns for this issue. This doesn't have to be a rules issue. It should be a competitors issue.
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DonMatzeder
Guest
I think there were three ranges with matchs that weekend in Michigan. I've shot there, wind was never a problem, snow showers were a little distracting..8>). If I was traveling this year, I would have been there for a double tourney, but I have not driven over 120 miles to a shoot all year...broke, if you know what I mean. Next year I'll run more. Maybe the Michigan shooters ran out of ammo shooting at eggs or shooting their squirl guns up at UP.
Carp,
If I shoot, it's at least 140 miles. Foster Arvin is pretty much in the same boat. We go to the match. If there's wind, then so be it. If not, it's what Kirk Gaston describes as "christmassy" I guess. The wind, or lack of it, is pretty much the same for every shooter. So, what the heck. If it eats my lunch there's another day.
As far as shooters being rewarded for not shooting on bad days, I guess that's true. I don't know if you remember the old BR-50 days and the "DNF" but I've seen many of those because the shooter chooses not to count that target after shooting it. That's strategy, and if the A-line or Agg line is your thing, then you should be rewarded for outfoxing the other guy I suppose. There are other type strategies that may work as well or better. For instance, building your own range and just shooting there may help. The same type strategy can apply for club championships. Usually you only have to shoot 50% of the matches to qualify. You could lay low on the bad days, pick and choose, and let the other guys mold your championship. Again, that's strategy and most of the time, strategy is rewarded. I doubt that the wind deters very many shooters. Mostly it's probably the cost, but to some extent, it's the competition. A few years ago a 2200 agg would win about any tournament. Now it may get you fifth. People get tired of being the "field" and never getting recognition.
Carp,
If I shoot, it's at least 140 miles. Foster Arvin is pretty much in the same boat. We go to the match. If there's wind, then so be it. If not, it's what Kirk Gaston describes as "christmassy" I guess. The wind, or lack of it, is pretty much the same for every shooter. So, what the heck. If it eats my lunch there's another day.
As far as shooters being rewarded for not shooting on bad days, I guess that's true. I don't know if you remember the old BR-50 days and the "DNF" but I've seen many of those because the shooter chooses not to count that target after shooting it. That's strategy, and if the A-line or Agg line is your thing, then you should be rewarded for outfoxing the other guy I suppose. There are other type strategies that may work as well or better. For instance, building your own range and just shooting there may help. The same type strategy can apply for club championships. Usually you only have to shoot 50% of the matches to qualify. You could lay low on the bad days, pick and choose, and let the other guys mold your championship. Again, that's strategy and most of the time, strategy is rewarded. I doubt that the wind deters very many shooters. Mostly it's probably the cost, but to some extent, it's the competition. A few years ago a 2200 agg would win about any tournament. Now it may get you fifth. People get tired of being the "field" and never getting recognition.
C
Carp
Guest
Don,
That is a bit disrespectful of the Michigan shooters with the eggs and squirl guns thing. I think they pretty much smoked you and Darrel on that trip you made. But that isn't the point of why I'm asking why folks are not showing up for matches. Gas prices may be a factor, ammo prices may be a factor.
Beau,
Mirage is hard to shoot. I learned from the Holton trip this past weekend. When you get mirage worse than Washington County in a 15-30 mph switch.....Washington County is a piece of cake. But if those approximately 10-15 shooters that can drive an hour or less don't support that club, they will just quit holding matches. Interesting deal isn't it. When you travel you want to shoot as many cards as you can, but it may not happen there anymore. Because of mirage? A-line or Agg-line really is not this issue with me. It's the lack of supporting shooters at clubs close to me that scares me. They may just quit holding matches. I travel to Wash. Co. and Livonia. 185 miles! I don't make too many Wash. Co. events because of that (gone 16 hours from home and family). But a lot of shooters close to there do also. As far as being the field with a 2200 agg and fifth or worse....what time are those start times at those matches? Wash. Co. is usually around 11:00am and Livonia 6:00pm or 7:00pm.
Everyone else,
Do you worry about shooting conditions at a club match or tournament BEFORE you decide to go? Does it have any bearing on whether you attend or not? I understand that no one, I mean no one wants to shoot badly. But do you understand in some parts of the country it could very well effect the range that holds those matches so that they may not extend new sanctions next year? I want to keep places to shoot. Not use excuses to let them slip away.
Carp
That is a bit disrespectful of the Michigan shooters with the eggs and squirl guns thing. I think they pretty much smoked you and Darrel on that trip you made. But that isn't the point of why I'm asking why folks are not showing up for matches. Gas prices may be a factor, ammo prices may be a factor.
Beau,
Mirage is hard to shoot. I learned from the Holton trip this past weekend. When you get mirage worse than Washington County in a 15-30 mph switch.....Washington County is a piece of cake. But if those approximately 10-15 shooters that can drive an hour or less don't support that club, they will just quit holding matches. Interesting deal isn't it. When you travel you want to shoot as many cards as you can, but it may not happen there anymore. Because of mirage? A-line or Agg-line really is not this issue with me. It's the lack of supporting shooters at clubs close to me that scares me. They may just quit holding matches. I travel to Wash. Co. and Livonia. 185 miles! I don't make too many Wash. Co. events because of that (gone 16 hours from home and family). But a lot of shooters close to there do also. As far as being the field with a 2200 agg and fifth or worse....what time are those start times at those matches? Wash. Co. is usually around 11:00am and Livonia 6:00pm or 7:00pm.
Everyone else,
Do you worry about shooting conditions at a club match or tournament BEFORE you decide to go? Does it have any bearing on whether you attend or not? I understand that no one, I mean no one wants to shoot badly. But do you understand in some parts of the country it could very well effect the range that holds those matches so that they may not extend new sanctions next year? I want to keep places to shoot. Not use excuses to let them slip away.
Carp
D
DonMatzeder
Guest
I was just kidding about the eggs, but as far as being smoked, Darrel and I both got wood at that match....The real problem with Michigan is that the season is short enough that far north that it is hard to compete for the A line and the Stat line rewards shooting fewer targets. The Indiana club needs to look at their facilities or some personal issues if they can't get people to travel 10 miles to shoot.
Carp,
I think Livonia started their state tournament around 12. The tournament this weekend starts at 3. Regular matches, I don't know. I shot that Washington Co./Livonia Tournament once and will do so no more. Nine targets in one day at two ranges is a bit much and like you, I didn't need to be gone that long. I see where you're coming from as far as support but when a club can muster only seven shooters for a tournament and another club ten miles away gets 15 for a regular match, I guess the shooters have spoken. There are three clubs within a very short distance and all of them are competing for shooters. If one shoots at night, I guess that's strategy again. I would imagine that most shooters choosing one over the other would take the night match for various reasons.
I think Livonia started their state tournament around 12. The tournament this weekend starts at 3. Regular matches, I don't know. I shot that Washington Co./Livonia Tournament once and will do so no more. Nine targets in one day at two ranges is a bit much and like you, I didn't need to be gone that long. I see where you're coming from as far as support but when a club can muster only seven shooters for a tournament and another club ten miles away gets 15 for a regular match, I guess the shooters have spoken. There are three clubs within a very short distance and all of them are competing for shooters. If one shoots at night, I guess that's strategy again. I would imagine that most shooters choosing one over the other would take the night match for various reasons.
J
Joe Haller
Guest
I got a different answer.
Carp:
When I first read your lead in post, I figured you meant the affect of wind on match attendance. Now that I know for sure that is what you were asking: I got'a get into this.
Our club started shooting rimfire BR nine years ago. I'm an old centerfire shooter who had to quit that sh#t because I was going deaf. Anyway our club decided to go with the USBR target, and we rounded up some of our old Smallbore Prone shooters.
At the end or the second year, our club treasurer said to me: "Joe, that target is too tough for a beginner. Did ya notice they are not coming back for a second match. Why don't you run some matches at 25 yards."
I didn't like that idea at first, but we tried it the next year: The shooters started to come back, and our matches grew popular. What happened?
That USBR target can be downright humiliating at 50 yards when the wind blows, and it ALWAYS blows. Wind drift is not linear. It has a squared function, which means our rimfire bullets drift FOUR times as far at 50 yards as they do at 25.
I had to admit that shooting at 25 yards was a good idea for us, because the shooters started coming back for more. They would get their feet wet at 25 yards, and when they built up a little confidence, they would try 50 yards. They would most likely be humiliated, but they were coming back.
Shooting at 25 yards, we can't sanction our matches. Turns out our "Outlaw" matches are a good thing.
Last weekend we had 34 shooters at our August match UP here on the edge of the Canadian border. Down in Lower Michigan they had an ARA State Championship with 11 shooters, and Dick Wright's club on the other side of the Lower Peninsula had 8 shooters. On the same weekend down in Alabama they reported 15 shooters. There was a match in Texas with 13 shooters. Out in Oregon they had 5 shooters. I got a report from RBA a couple of days ago. They listed 4 matches over the weekend: 5 shooters, 4 shooters 5 shooters and 6 shooters.
NOW: Is there something wrong with our sport? Probably a BUNCH of things are wrong. What I am suggesting here is that maybe one of the things is the targets are too tough for new shooters at 50 yards. Don Matzder said in one of his posts: "Some areas are more remote than others and they will never have large attendance". Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan is pretty remote, don't ya think?
I know it is easier to run a match with 8 or 10 shooters. It takes a lot of work and a lot of volunteers to run a match with more than 30 shooters. Is it worth it? Would 25 yard matches attract more shooters at other clubs? Would the sanctioning bodies be flexable enough to make some changes? What other changes would help the sport grow?
As Carp said: "Participation is critical".
Mr. Frosty
Carp:
When I first read your lead in post, I figured you meant the affect of wind on match attendance. Now that I know for sure that is what you were asking: I got'a get into this.
Our club started shooting rimfire BR nine years ago. I'm an old centerfire shooter who had to quit that sh#t because I was going deaf. Anyway our club decided to go with the USBR target, and we rounded up some of our old Smallbore Prone shooters.
At the end or the second year, our club treasurer said to me: "Joe, that target is too tough for a beginner. Did ya notice they are not coming back for a second match. Why don't you run some matches at 25 yards."
I didn't like that idea at first, but we tried it the next year: The shooters started to come back, and our matches grew popular. What happened?
That USBR target can be downright humiliating at 50 yards when the wind blows, and it ALWAYS blows. Wind drift is not linear. It has a squared function, which means our rimfire bullets drift FOUR times as far at 50 yards as they do at 25.
I had to admit that shooting at 25 yards was a good idea for us, because the shooters started coming back for more. They would get their feet wet at 25 yards, and when they built up a little confidence, they would try 50 yards. They would most likely be humiliated, but they were coming back.
Shooting at 25 yards, we can't sanction our matches. Turns out our "Outlaw" matches are a good thing.
Last weekend we had 34 shooters at our August match UP here on the edge of the Canadian border. Down in Lower Michigan they had an ARA State Championship with 11 shooters, and Dick Wright's club on the other side of the Lower Peninsula had 8 shooters. On the same weekend down in Alabama they reported 15 shooters. There was a match in Texas with 13 shooters. Out in Oregon they had 5 shooters. I got a report from RBA a couple of days ago. They listed 4 matches over the weekend: 5 shooters, 4 shooters 5 shooters and 6 shooters.
NOW: Is there something wrong with our sport? Probably a BUNCH of things are wrong. What I am suggesting here is that maybe one of the things is the targets are too tough for new shooters at 50 yards. Don Matzder said in one of his posts: "Some areas are more remote than others and they will never have large attendance". Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan is pretty remote, don't ya think?
I know it is easier to run a match with 8 or 10 shooters. It takes a lot of work and a lot of volunteers to run a match with more than 30 shooters. Is it worth it? Would 25 yard matches attract more shooters at other clubs? Would the sanctioning bodies be flexable enough to make some changes? What other changes would help the sport grow?
As Carp said: "Participation is critical".
Mr. Frosty
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wb9uze
Guest
Carp, You know me and the equipment I have. All built by well known smiths and most of them are almost new and shoot excellent. You also know I've backed completely off rimfire this year. Here are my reasons.
1. Gas is outrageous!!
2. The closest range is 1 hour and 15 min away and the rest are at least 2 plus hours and more.
3. Ammo is outrageous!!
4. One club I've always liked shooting at is over 2 hours one way and shot 3 targets per match. I'm not driving that distance to shoot a 3 card
match period.
As far as benchrest rimfire shooting goes IMHO one needs to be absolutely dedicated and spend tons of time and money PRACTICING in ALL conditions. You need the best equipment for the most part also and a VERY understanding wife. The wind won't stop you, nor the weather, from shooting any match you can get to, and for some, no matter how far away it is. I've done it mostly for the competition and fun. The reasons listed above are my main show stoppers with gas and ammo at the top of the list. Besides, I'm now having too much fun sucking most Harleys up the tailpipe with my new 1800 Custom and I'm getting 41.5 MPG doing it. Just got a new set of ROADBURNER 2.5" STREET PRO EXHAUST. That will give it a few more ponys too. P.S. Congrats on the Michigan State win......
1. Gas is outrageous!!
2. The closest range is 1 hour and 15 min away and the rest are at least 2 plus hours and more.
3. Ammo is outrageous!!
4. One club I've always liked shooting at is over 2 hours one way and shot 3 targets per match. I'm not driving that distance to shoot a 3 card
match period.
As far as benchrest rimfire shooting goes IMHO one needs to be absolutely dedicated and spend tons of time and money PRACTICING in ALL conditions. You need the best equipment for the most part also and a VERY understanding wife. The wind won't stop you, nor the weather, from shooting any match you can get to, and for some, no matter how far away it is. I've done it mostly for the competition and fun. The reasons listed above are my main show stoppers with gas and ammo at the top of the list. Besides, I'm now having too much fun sucking most Harleys up the tailpipe with my new 1800 Custom and I'm getting 41.5 MPG doing it. Just got a new set of ROADBURNER 2.5" STREET PRO EXHAUST. That will give it a few more ponys too. P.S. Congrats on the Michigan State win......
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Carp
Guest
wb9uze,
I understand your plight. We talked. 4 targets at the range you enjoy now. It's been a couple of matches now that they did that. Borden. Ammo has been outrageous for a few years. I think that the real cost is not that outrageous compared to previous. It's still to much. Compared to that motorcycle it is probably pennies.
Carp
I understand your plight. We talked. 4 targets at the range you enjoy now. It's been a couple of matches now that they did that. Borden. Ammo has been outrageous for a few years. I think that the real cost is not that outrageous compared to previous. It's still to much. Compared to that motorcycle it is probably pennies.
Carp