Winchester 52 International Match Help!

[BrianJ]

52-i

Good Morning Ed,

Please don't misinterpret what was said here. We are not suggesting these rifles were "cloned" to deceive anybody. In my case I sold the stock and hardware from mine in 1973, not 80's or 90's, to a fellow who wanted a position rifle to shoot. I sold the stock assy. because it was not user friendly in comparison to others. The barreled action on the other hand was terrific and worked well in a prone stock. There was no "trouble and expense" trying to make a clone. It did make economic sense to both of us.
Why use the International barreled action and not a "D"? I had the International. But I agree that in my opinion the "D" was the best action but the "E" had refinments, for better or worse. The main thing was the best barrels ever were the new hammer forged barrels on the "E" International. The "D" didn't have a decent barrel to be competitive and it was necessary to rebarrel them.
As far as size, the "D" heavy and "E" barrels were the same size. The "D" never was made in a bull barrel and that was on the heavy side as well.
Keep in mind rifle competitors are a funny lot and they alter and change at will.
The complete stock and all the hardware was Freeland and this includes the trigger guard.
You must also keep in mind that prior to 1969 Freeland was making these stocks and during 52 International production they continued. As for economic sense I believe it made perfect sense if you owned the 52 "B", "C", "D" and wanted a position rifle to buy only a stock. The stocks and hardware being available from Freeland or Winchester.You can find many and any variation.
In a case such as yours where questions could exist, even if not at the time, documentation is vital and sometimes necessary. Word of mouth is nice, but get it in writing.
Good luck in your collecting. Hope your wife cheers up.

bjm

 

[TIDCT]

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the reply. I understand in your situation it made sense to convert your 52. You may be sorry now you changed what is now a $4,000 +/- rifle into a what is now a $1,000.+/- rifle. As a car guy from the 60's a lot of 63 Corvette coupe owners removed the rear window split bar when the 64 Corvette came out. At the time they thought it was a good idea. Look what that did to their collector values. I thought that the 52D's where available as a "bull" barrel. What is the difference between the Bull and heavy barrel? I thought they were the same.
Thanks for the input and for helping bring a future (?) collector up to speed.

Ed

 

[chillippr]

Always a difference between people who "use" things and people who "collect" things. Many are fortunate to be able to do both - I've not been one of those and continue to be a user. In 1968 I parted out a 1955 Pre-A Speedster and took the shell to the crusher. The front was damaged by a fire and technology had passed it by - it was of no longer of "use" to me. Never look back.

 

[w5i2n]

TIDCT,
Let me know when you decide to get some of the other 52s for your future collection. For what you think they are worth, I think I can sell you 15 or so.

 

[BrianJ]

52-i

Ed,
For the record I was a user and don't regret it. I don't collect but still do appreciate some of the truely good modified target rifles.
Along that thought, I used to shoot with a left hander who had a true LH 52 International. It wasn't done by Winchester factory other than the original International rifle. The work was done by Wiseman in the early 70's and was flawless. Wish I knew where it is today.

bjm

 

[Weedog]

I am skeptical that rifle shipped from Winchester with that stock, unless it was some kind of a prototype. Being from a collection in New Haven, that is a possibility.

I believe that a small number of 52E rifles left the factory with laminated stocks. One important clue is that these rifles came with a very deeply inset crown. Very rare, thus quite valuable IMHO.

 

[ProneShooter]

The 52E with recessed barrel crown also had a laminated stock made up of blocks glued together in place of strips glued together. I know of at least 6 with Kenyon triggers and 6 with factory triggers with that barrel/stock profile. All are great shooters. I took a pair to Camp Perry for the made in America match a few years back. Had to fight through the would be buyers just to put the guns in their cases. I still get phone calls to see if I am ready to sell any.

 

[seewin]

Just a couple points of clarification...
According to Winchester production numbers,there were approximately 500 Internationals made over the span of 1969-1980. Of this number, there were 37 International Prones which used a completely different stock with removable cheek piece. These are the rarest of the 52's. All E's had the recessed crown, not just the Internationals. Approximately 60% of the Internationals had the optional Kenyon trigger. There were also a few Interntional barreled actions sold by Winchester in addition to the standard barreled actions. This was done so that shooters could fit their own stocks.
There is alot of misinformation floating around about the E models and Internationals in general. Much of this is the result of some of the errors in the Houze book on the 52. The biggest and most often quoted error is the fact that there were only 37 E models made. In fact, there were probably somewhere between 1700 and 2000 E's made, compared to nearly 5000 D models.
As far as the difference between the Bull and heavy weight barrel, the Bull measured 1-1/8" dia at the receiver, while the heavy weight target barrel on the D and E models measured 1-1/16" diameter, and the B&C heavy weight target was 1" diameter. They were all 7/8" diameter at the muzzle and 28" long. The bull barrel configuration was dropped by Winchester at the end of the C model production. Winchester also manufactured a Standard Weight target barrel model. This was available on the B,C,&D models. It measured 1" dia at receiver and 3/4" diameter at muzzle. It was 28" long as well.
Steve

 

[TIDCT]

Bull Barrel

Steve,
Thanks for the update on the barrel configurations. I had thought the "Bull was just a different name for the "Heavy" but I see now they are two different barrels.
Ed

 

[vicvanb]

Inflated Prices!

TIDCT,
Let me know when you decide to get some of the other 52s for your future collection. For what you think they are worth, I think I can sell you 15 or so.

Good point! The prices that are quoted in the $4000-$5000 range seem pretty inflated, but then asking prices on all collectible Winchesters in the past 3 years have gone through the roof. The auctions have driven prices way beyond realistic values. But to bring those prices the rifles must be correct and minty. A lot of guys don't appreciate that simple fact, or lack the knowledge to evaluate a rifle.

There are two M52s pictured in the M52 book that I sold quite a few years ago. One was a 52C Sporter new in the box and the other a 52C Target new in the factory wooden crate. They are worth now 2-3 times what they sold for back then.

 

[usmc69]

Ed, do you know who owned the rifle prior and bought it new? I ask because I have a feeling this was not a factory produced 52-I. Not to take anything away from the rifle but it has an exceptionally low number for a "D" in that stock.
Even the early made models had Winchester accessories. The early "I's" stocks I'm familiar with had a couple slightly differing points than the standard later version that this stock is.

At the time Freeland would put one of his stocks on a 52 and everything other than the barreled action is Freeland.
Many also came about because 52-I's were stripped of the stock and hardware to make prone rifles using the barreled action. I did on mine and sold my stock and hardware to a shooter from another state who put a "D" into it.

Steve will probably know a lot better than most.

Still a very nice rifle - bjm

This is a 52D that I bought from the CMP several years ago at auction. The S/N is 119693D. Bought it because I liked the stock and the I joined the USMC in March of 1969.

 

[flea]

I need help as well

I have a NIB model 52. s/n E124,xxx with the manual and everything else. I have read up on this post and have leaned alot but I still have a couple of questions. This rifle has been passed down to me and I am trying to figure it out.

1. The paper work says that it is a D model, is that weird?

2. I cannot find the sights but I am almost positive I have them in one of the tool boxes. What should I look for?

3. We had it appraised about 10-15 years ago and they said it was 100% but I see most people using 98%?

4. I am a left handed shooter and my father was right handed obviously. I used to shoot about 15 years ago and want to get back into it. Any ideas on whether it would be worth it for a young guy (27) to sell this gun and actually be able to shoot again?

5. what in the world would this thing be worth?

6.oh yeah it comes with an unertel scope in a wood box. Is the normal to be with the rifle?

 

[cadillacjack]

Hey Tdic

Why not put it in the classifieds and see if it sells? Looks to me as if you know more about it than anyone else> So quit looking for free advertising and put it up for sale.

 

[flea]

thank you cadillac. I thought a forum was to get knowledge from and to give to, but hey I might just be mistaken.

 

[Corning]

flea,

So what is the story about your 52E and the Unetrl scope? Did you find the iron sights? Is it for sale? If so, how much?

John

 

[dokey]

This is a 52D that I bought from the CMP several years ago at auction. The S/N is 119693D. Bought it because I liked the stock and the I joined the USMC in March of 1969.

If you look at page 162 of Herbert Houzes's book on the 52 you'll see the international match stock you have pictured

 

[usmc69]

If you look at page 162 of Herbert Houzes's book on the 52 you'll see the international match stock you have pictured

Seewin, George Stephens and I have had several discussions about this rifle. The muzzle is not counter-bored, the recoil lug is of the 52D style and there are tuner marks on the barrel, not to mention the S/N is approximately 2900 rifles prior to the end of the D run of known serial numbers.

Was the military shooter that last had this rifle trying to make it into an E configured rifle?.....Probably. The rifle shoots well and to me that is all theat matters. Here is the rifle as it looks now.

 

[prone-geezer]

52 intl.

It's hard to tell from the pictures but I don't really think this is a 52 international. I think it is a 52 d converted by Al Freeland. I have had several of Al's guns including 3 right now of different types including a 40X free rifle made by Al. All of his stocks including the 40 x are exactly the same as this one.

As to the $4k value , I wish. I could move to easy street. I would estimate the value at $1200. If it is a conversion as i think it is there is no value as a collectable. There is no value as a position rifle or prone rifle. The scope is marginal and outdated. The barrel might be good but it is a factory barrel. The action and trigger, however. are as good as it gets. NOBODY makes a trigger like Karl and 52 actions are great too.

On the other hand by opinion is probably worth every penny you paid for it.

 

[BrianJ]

stock

PG

Do you have a pic of the Freeland 40X International???

bjm

 

[TooTallHoss]

As requested here are some photos of the Winchester 52D

Good Morning,

The Winchester 52 in these photos looks exactly like the rifle my father bought for me
When I was shooting in Cheshire Cat. I had to sell it when I joined the USAF.

I'd very much like to find my old rifle and buy it back as my father passed away this January.

I hope you still have it.

It had a Kenyan trigger and all the other bells and whistles you mentioned. Thank you,