Will Wilbur be convinced?

M

MocknLA

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I thought that I would post this as a poll and see what those that follow this tuner thread thought.

Will Wilbur have a tuner on his pet rifle before the Super Shoot? James Mock

PS Wilbur asked us to put our opinion. I consider both Gene and Wilbur friends. Although Gene is a very convincing teacher, I don't believe that Wilbur will use tuners this season. This is not based on any type of "inside" information, but just my belief.

I have played with a tuner a little and did not find it helped my mediocre shooting. The one that I had was made by Stiller and it would change the point of impact of a given load; but, I was never able to get the barrel on which it was placed to shoot better than before it had the tuner.
 
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me thinks he...

MocknLA said:
I thought that I would post this as a poll and see what those that follow this tuner thread thought.

Will Wilbur have a tuner on his pet rifle before the Super Shoot? James Mock
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biased against tunners but who knows what will come of it. It's like Columbus setting off for India only to discover a new world.

MY OPINION OF TUNERS:At this time I have no concrete opinion. At some point I need to read, ask questions and hopefully see one in action. If they work, they are another positive to accuracy variable to master, nothing more.
 
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James, Wilbur has been in this game long enough to know works from don't-works.

He has had enough experience in document writing to know how to explain what he finds out in terms we can all understand.

I have not seen a single post or thread , on this or any other forum, that doubts Wilbur's integrity.

That means put me down as him being convinced....of the facts.

Timeframe, before Dublin.
 
I have no experience with tuners but based on my gut instinct and lack of convincing from the contradictory information I have read here so far I will say this.

My guess is he will be convinced of the merit of tuners based on the set up he shoots with Gene.

I also am picking that if he then puts a tuner on his own rifle and uses it at matches he will find that it does nothing more or less than simply tuning the load. Over a wide range of ambient conditions the simply logic of X change at the tuner for Y change in density altitude will not hold up and the tuner will simply become something different to learn how to tune rather than the load.

I am guessing that while the whole simple procedure of take a reading and alter the tuner by 1/4 turn or whatever can be shown to work and be repeatable it will not hold up at different ranges at different altitudes with different humidity at different parts of the world. People with tuners will win matches and people with tuners will still get beaten by old fashioned naked barrels !!!

I don't know much about the in depth theory of barrel harmonics etc but that is my guess what the long term outcome of all this will be. FWIW.

I worked along the logic of density altitude and load tuning only to find that if I loaded in the upper window instead of the next one down the load kepts it's own tune far better than me trying to alter a lighter load based on DA readings.
 
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That Wilbur is going shows that he is genuinely interested, and though he has expressed his doubts, I 'll bet he will give an honest opinion if we want to hear it or not. I do believe that they work but don't know if it is a benefit or another thing to possibly muck things up when the day is far from perfect and now I have something else that may or may not be right.
 
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I don't doubt for a second that Wilbur will go with an open mind and will take in as much information as possible in order to make a judgement.

However, in the original posters question, "Convinced" sounds a lot like the word "Never" does, when used in other conversations.

Back when Harold Vaughn demonstrated various ways in which a horse get's out of the barn, he did not try to show new ways to chase the horse or lure it back. He tried to show how to build better barn doors so the horse could not get out.

I think that the only way for Wilbur to see any clear advantage to using the tuner on the rifle in question, is if the rifle does not shoot well enough without it, which would again, demonstrate that it has flaws that need fixing. jmho.

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Wilbur,

My belief is that a tuner can only work if the rifle in question already has a mechanical deficiency that keeps it from shooting at it's best. I do not believe that a tuner can make a "Barrel" better. I think that if the load does not work with the rifle as is, a tuner can change the gun balance and help/hinder that. I'm talking strictly from a weight hanging there, fixing something that should have been fixed when the gun was bulilt the first time.

My current "Overview Belief" of mechanical things is, that I have NEVER (hate that word) never seen a mechanical device that was made better by adding more parts, and ways for it to develop problems. Look at the mouse you are using to navigate this site today and compare it (if you have a optical or laser mouse) compare it to the one you used years ago with a ball in it. Hmm, I prefer the simple one that has about 200 less parts and seems to live until the plastic wears through.

While I have seen people with tuned guns shoot reasonably well, I have never heard of a person who shot with a tuned rifle (centerfire) and won thier home range season aggregate. That's because the guys who won, had guns that did not need tuned.
 
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For those that answer

Please state your current personal belief in tuners. You can use the "edit" feature if you have already posted to add on.
 
Wilbur said:
Please state your current personal belief in tuners. You can use the "edit" feature if you have already posted to add on.
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My belief is that if you get a tuner you won't be able to find it by the first match. Wanna bet some money? ;)
 
Why worry

We don't have to all agree. There is lot of things better left with the individual. Dem vs Rep., religion, tuners, 133 vs 8208, etc....
 
here is a robotic tuner

guitar-tuner-robot.jpg




man last year we had to have a locked up scope or we was wasting our time. now I'm scared to go shoot cause I don't have a tuner:D
 
My personal beliefs on tuners are:

If a tuner is used with a barrel that has been lightened, so that the combined assembly is of tolerable weight, having a tuned amount of weight at the muzzle will slow the barrel's swing and therefore make the in tune condition broader. (Yes, this is just a guess.) Other benefits may accrue from using some sort of damping medium along the metal part(s).

On the one barrel that I have the most tuner experience with, I started with my best load and worked with both it and the tuner, reaching a slightly higher degree of accuracy and a more temperature tolerant state of tune. The only reason that I did not follow up on this experience by modifying all of my barrels for the tuner, is that I don't own a lathe, and considerable work is needed to turn down a barrel ( I used steps) and do a good job of fitting the threads to the tuner.

The damping medium, which I referred to above, is a Sims Deresonator. I found that it worked better just behind the muzzle threads, which put it 2" back from the end of the barrel. One thing that stood out for me was that the rifle seemed to shoot truer to conditions than before the tuner was fitted.

The barrel that I used was near the end of its life. You could feel roughness in the throat with a patch. Even so It managed to win its last match, which was at 200 yd., at Visalia, with a .291 before being retired to fire forming duty.

As to Wilbur's "conversion", I think that he likes to keep to things that are simple and proven. On the other hand, I think that like any serious competitor, if he feel that a tuner can give him lower aggs. he may find that a change is in order. For myself, I need one that can read flags in switchy conditions. :D
 
My, My, My,,

Wilbur's upcoming journey to West Texas is creating quite a stir among the benchrest crowd; huh? :D

Will he? :confused:

Will he not? :eek:

Can Gene really do what he says he can do? :rolleyes:

Do they really work? :(

I'll bet he's just blowin' smoke, that'll never work. :mad:

If a rifle is built right in the first place, it don't need no stinkin' tuner. :mad:

Yeah right. :cool: I'll believe it when I see it. :(

Boy,,, that guy's sure going to have a lot of crow to eat. :D


All jokes aside guys, I think Wilbur is to be commended for his willingness to participate in this experiment and I'm looking forward to his visit.

Later,,

Gene Beggs
 
I would like to see Wilbur show up with one of his old cast-off barrels, that was not competitive but otherwise in good condition with a history behind it that Wilbur could refer to, and have Gene re-chamber it and add his tuner while installing it on Genes test bed gun.

Now, if this barrel were to go from a bummer to hummer using Genes setup/tuner techniques, and have the capability to stay in tune thru various atmospheric changes, than I think Wilbur would be impressed enough to re-evaluate. Otherwise, just shooting a single barrel/rifle that Gene has previously developed using a tuner will probably have little impact, since any one rifle can show a certain disposition.

Will Wilbur really give a critical review of Genes setup?..............probably not.................too much of a gentleman............. we will most likely have to read between the lines to get the true evaluation, which really means that we will all skew Wilburs words to mean whatever our own biases preclude.

Doesnt Wilbur use a tuner on his competition rimfire barrels? I thought all rimfire competitors used them.

Do I think tuners work? As I have said in the past...........yes, about 60 percent of barrels can see some improvement, but I have never seen a barrel go from a bummer to a hummer with a tuner setup, regardless of the design, weight, or protocol of usage.................Don
 
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I think you need a good barrel, find a load that is intentionally out of tune with the tuner in place but not set up right, lots of vertical, and then tune that barrel to that load. That would be proof positive that the tuner was actually manipulating the barrel and not just helping fine tune an otherwise good load.

Trying to make a bad barrel shoot well may just prove that a bad barrel is always a bad barrel.
 
Gene Beggs said:
All jokes aside guys, I think Wilbur is to be commended for his willingness to participate in this experiment and I'm looking forward to his visit.

Gene Beggs
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I think you're to be commended for yours. This is like a soap opera where we're waiting for the next episode! It's funny! I'm curious to see what Wilbur's outlook is after the fact. Even if you are correct Gene, I do not think that a few days will be enough time to sufficiently demonstrate your point.
 
Don said:
I would like to see Wilbur show up with one of his old cast-off barrels, that was not competitive but otherwise in good condition with a history behind it that Wilbur could refer to, and have Gene re-chamber it and add his tuner while installing it on Genes test bed gun.

Now, if this barrel were to go from a bummer to hummer using Genes setup/tuner techniques, than I think Wilbur would be impressed enough to re-evaluate.
................Don
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Don, while Wilbur is quasi-evangelical, I don't think his "laying on of the hands" would bring a dead barrel back to life. A little snake handling beforehand might help some but probably not enough!!

(Note to Gene; bring a cage of Sidewinders)
 
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