why is it a DQ ?

Stan, You are doing pretty good with your words. Thanks to you, Bob Rosen, Bob Pastor and Chris Collins and other IBS 1000yd shooters who love the sport we compete in for explaining how most of us feel.

Thomas Ellington aka Fouron
 
Finally some guys with the right ideas. Thank all of yall for your wisdom. Thats why there are two organization. If you dont like IBS shoot NBRSA. Of course there are rule changes in all sports, Nascar, Football, Baseball etc. But they have never changed the main objective of each. Finish the race or score the most points. In IBS that means 5 or 10 on. What I was saying before is dont try to change the game because you cant play. Why do you think GROUP trumps SCORE in IBS scoring? Because it is a precision sport guys! If you want to shoot score maybe shoot high power. I personally like the little groups.


Chris
 
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B Rosen said:
Mike the answer W.R. gave is a good one it is the rule. Why do foul balls not count in baseball? Why if you go out of bounds and come back in football you cannot keep running? You need to play the game for a while befour start trying to rewrite the rule book. This is part of the game you must learn how to keep them on paper. This is step one in playing the game.
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well someone got there before me.......

in all your examples..the player is not told to get up and leave.....you take another swing, play another play..........

so it is not good reasoning as to why.....
 
ok guys..i have heard two things..neither are answers to my question..

one: its how we always did it .....
this is as illogical as the guy during the war saying he had not time to lear how to shoot a garand, he was too busiy keeping his 03a3 bolt gun filled......

two: you have not played the game so you cannot comment.

another illogical statement...if one can stand back and look at a process, one can oftten learn, and if one has intelligence, ask questions.
i aksed a smiply question...and have not recieved the answer.

so i take it no one on here knows why....

its a simple case of its how we have always done it....don't you dare question it..

thanks
mike in co
 
bob,
i sorta agree, but dissagree.
the target has a center..hitting the center is precision shooting BUT we award small group to the guy who did not hit anywhere near the center, just becasue he kept them all together. why is MISSING the center of the tartget consistantly, consider PRECISION ?
this is just a game , not real life war shooting, but in a war....a person that hits the head shot at 1000yds 4 out of 5 times is valued much more that the guy that misses 5 times by the exact same amount.....same applies to hunting. a hunter kills clean, not wounding 5 times and having to try to track the wounded animal to later get the kill...

yes that is sorta off track...but can any of you see , that what i am asking is in direct relationship to your charter....ultimate precision rifle shooting.

thanks
mike in co
Bob Pastor said:
This topic has been discussed many times before. Not many of the IBS shooters have responded so far, however I can pretty much sum up a good answer for you. Precision target shooting is not easy. It has and always will be a test of equipment and the skill of the marksman. If 10 shots are required to have a target count, then by God there better be 10 shots on the target. That's the game we play and there is no gray area there for dispute. Now, if an association wants to shoot a 9 shot target, then so be it.

If the reasoning behind no DQ's is to keep people from getting discouraged, then you defeat the whole purpose of the exacting requirements for marksmanship at long range. Those persons just have to practice and work harder to stay in the game. Anyone who competes will miss the target sooner or later. It just happens for a multitude of reasons. This is not a Sunday go to meeting sport. It takes a great deal of sacrafice in time, money, personal time from home and sometimes work.

I can tell you right now that the IBS will never accept 9 shots for a record target. The IBS has stayed strong because of inflexible rules like this. As for the comment about no wind back East. I'm hoping you were just kidding. Hawks Ridge and Williamsport, just to name a couple of ranges, can and do humble you real quick.
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mike in co said:
so another without a REASON.......
READ the question...
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Oh for gawds sake Mike, THINK for about 10 sec, and you won't need to ask.

Gee, let's go back to where the sport began. 1960's... Not everyone could go to the local gunsmith and get rifles that would shoot like today. Not everyone had bullets made to todays standards. HITTING THE TARGET WAS A CHALLENGE. Just because decades of people came before you and made it easy does not mean it always was. However, it would seem that for some, it is STILL difficult. Enter the people asking the questions.

Back in the 60's, it was remarkable to shoot a 10" group. Like, small group of the year out of 1000 targets, remarkable. Shooting 20" was not only common, it was expected. Having 10 shots on the target in good conditions was quite a challenge.

Further reasons would probably entail the difficulty of scoring. Yea yea, you seem to think scoring is easy even if you track when people miss. Whatever, don't even go here with me. All your "Exceptions to the rule" make scoring a pain in the ass. And far more likely to be wrong. Might not be so bad where a range has 10 shooters. It doesn't work with 100.

Now remember, the entire point of shooting is to hit what you aim at. See, those folks in the 60's figured that out and it didn't take them years on this board to do so. Funny enough, folks in short range BR also DQ you when you don't hit the target. Why don't you go on the point blank forum and ask them why those rules are the way they are.

This dead horse has beaten to a pulp. You don't shoot 1K out on the west coast where you are allowed to miss. Why would you give a $hit about what happens on the east coast?

I agree 100% with CColoins and WVRedNeck here. Just read these: Especially the first...
The question I have is why are all the newbie shooter wanting to come in and change the sport around to accommodate their shooting. It took me a few years to figure it out, but now I can hold my own. Never thought once I should try to change the system to help me shoot better or get credit for something I didnt earn.
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As I have stated before, in the IBS 1000yd it is 5 on or 10 on plain and simple. Everybody has a right to voice on this forum for the most part a lot of people i've talked to that has read these posts in reference to the DQs the majority of us don't have a problem with it and yes the wind does blow on the east coast just as bad as it does where you guys are shooting. The best thing i can say is Man Up and take what you get and we're tired of hearing the whining.
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Your next swing comes at the next match. Back up and punt and dont pout about it. Come on Mike think about it. Thats why we have 2 different organization. If you dont like one, shoot the other. If you cant find one out of the two shoot dont shoot. IBS says 5 and 10 to make a group. Why ask why? The fore fathers of IBS 1000yd said so! Its group first, score second. Looks like you have been answered by some of the top shooters in 1000yd IBS in both the muzzle break thread and the DQ rule. Looks like they dont post very much on BRC but let their knowledge show on the paper and results. Shouldn't be to hard to understand.
 
Why do you think GROUP trumps SCORE in IBS scoring?
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Actually, Chris, it doesn't. They pay the same. The only penalty is that if you win both group and score on a relay, you have to shoot for group in the shootoff. Some might call that trumping. I call it lack of choice.

When Charles Baliey won SOY, he did it with score wins. And at the Nationals, your placement in each is summed for the overall.

* * *

Edit

Funny enough, folks in short range BR also DQ you when you don't hit the target. Why don't you go on the point blank forum and ask them why those rules are the way they are.
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Phil, that's not correct. In group, you get a 1 MOA penalty. You might as well have been DQ'd, but you aren't. In score, you drop 10 points. Again, might as well have been DQ'd

And as far as 10-shot groups. Even in the mid 1990s, a single-digit 10 shot group was worth feeling good about. Somewhere around 1998 the single-digit guys became more common.

I think it was the bullets -- not everybody had Earl Chronister's connections with Sierra. The rest of us had good Sierra's and bad Sierra's. Then competition came in the long-range bullet making business, and everybody's bullets got better.
 
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Hi Mike,

You are correct, It is a game that we play. In this particular game the Founding Fathers of Williamsport were a few friends shooting for absolute fun. It was decided that 10 shots were proof positive that a certain level of extreme accuracy was achieved. Anything less and there was no meat on the table for dinner. If you look at the size of the scoring rings on a 1,000 yd. target, and super impose a deer, you either get to eat or go hungry. Every sport starts some where and rules develope along the way. I'll give you an example in a different discipline. F Class is only shot for score. Your grouping will decide if you win or lose but that group better be in the center. It's just a different game and different rules.

I don't know how else to explain an answer to your question. I just thank the Founding Fathers for having the wisdom to include the group size or I'd go home more often for not hitting the center.

In the end, it's all about the fun of competing, seeing old friends, making new ones, helping other guys with problems and testing ourselves with a tool that we can control, right up until that damn bullet leaves the rifle. If a person is looking for anything more, they just won't find it.

If for any reason I have not understood what, how and why the original rules were set up, I'll have to appologize for my lack of understanding and stand corrected at a later time.
 
OK, using the idea of one guy having 4 in the 10 ring with a 5th shot not visible vs. another shooter with 5 in the 7 ring...I have seen things like this happen, it is usually a blown up bullet that never made it to the target, or the shooter forgot to shoot the 5th shot, or one of the shots actually went onto another shooters target. Arguably, there could be a PERFECT double on the target ( this is unfortunate if it cannot be determined as such ). The reality is, 99 times out of 100, when a shooter is missing a shot(s) the group that is on the target is near the edge of the target, or so big there just wasn't enough target. So in all of these situations, except the perfect double possibility, I cannot see why anyone would think that was good enough. As far as to why it is this way, it really seems obvious and self explanitory to me. I know this doesn't answer Mike's question the way he wants it answered, but I don't think anyone is going to be able to do so...no matter what answer is given.

I don't understand their thinking out west though, I've seen Heavy Gun results that showed 0 scores with 100 inch groups...that means NO shots were on the target. Explain the validity of a clean, yet technically scorable target to me please ?!

I think I might have come up with an acceptable answer for Mike, we want to insure that the above doesn't happen in IBS, that's the reason for the DQ rule.

Jeff
 
The answer to Mike is Colorado is simple. "Logic" does not equal "What I want."

Rules for sports don't have to be logical. Why can't you throw the ball in football (soccer)? You can in (American) football. It isn't logical. Or maybe it isn't logical that you can throw it in American football. Actually, both those statements are correct; it is not a matter of logic.

Probably there is a school near you where you could take Logic 101.

The variations on "Why can't I have what I want" was covered by your parents during the terrible twos.

Also by the philosopher Jagger, who did allow that if you try real hard, you can sometimes get what you need. With that in mind, if you want to change a rule, both IBS and NBRSA have a formal system to do so.
 
Charles

Good answer. A lot better than saying "just because".

I believe the NBRSA rules regarding aggregate tournaments and no DQ rule were written for good reasons. 1) Many competitors travel long distances to shoot (an average for me is 800 miles one-way) and they would not participate unless they got their money's worth in rounds fired. 2) The wind really does suck in places like Reno and you could end up without a winner in many of the matches (everyone DQ'd) and determining a Tournament or National Champion based on less than the full number of targets really doesn't do the title proud.

No one's trying to change the IBS rules. They are what the shooters want and were adopted by them, based on their own circumstances.

Ray
 
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CCollins said:
. Why ask why? .
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because i have a brain between my ears, a fair amount of common sense, and always question authority.
i'm not a follower..i do not shoot a 6ppc.
its a new game for me...why shouldn't i ask why ???

mike in co
 
Well when you come into a sport you play by the rules that are giving. Yes sometimes rules need changing I understand that. But if its so new to you why dont you play for awhile before questioning 'WHY". Like Charles said if you dont like it there are ways to change it. I may be wrong but Im sure it will never pass in 1000yd IBS. If so maybe its time to move on for me. Im not a follower either and I dont shoot a 6ppc (not sure why you are going there)? Use your common sense and get over the fact that 1000yd IBS requires 5 and 10 shots. If you had a horse in this race it might be a little bit different story. 4mesh said it best, you don't shoot it why do you care what we do on the east coast.

You have made this adult conversation very childish with remarks of knowledge about me and fouron. Lets try not to make this personal. After all in the end we all do this for fun and will never get back what we put in. Self satisfaction and fellowship with friends is what its about for me.
 
If so maybe its time to move on for me.
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Ah, Chris, don't say that. We need you.

There are several things about IBS competition that don't make sense. So what? I can shoot the DQ or a big penalty, don't care either way.

My personal peeve is if you shoot a relay over -- if, say, there is an extra, undetermined shot on your target and you choose to reshoot -- you're scored with the competitors in your original relay, instead of the people you actually shot against. Now that's an opportunity for actual cheating. Oh well, nothing's perfect.
 
where did i ever say i wanted to change anything...you guys are putting words in my mouth...i did ask "why"....just why...i wanted to know if there was some intelligence behind the rule...evidently not....just its what we have always done and we don't question anything.
there is nothing to "get over"...i asked a question is all....

will you tell me where in the rules one cannot question the rules ?
where in the rules does it say a member is not allowed to ask questions ?
but you are so narrow minded that if the rule did change, you would move on?? how is that playing by the rules that you talk about ?
some people i just don't understand.

mike in co

CCollins said:
Well when you come into a sport you play by the rules that are giving. Yes sometimes rules need changing I understand that. But if its so new to you why dont you play for awhile before questioning 'WHY". Like Charles said if you dont like it there are ways to change it. I may be wrong but Im sure it will never pass in 1000yd IBS. If so maybe its time to move on for me. Im not a follower either and I dont shoot a 6ppc (not sure why you are going there)? Use your common sense and get over the fact that 1000yd IBS requires 5 and 10 shots. If you had a horse in this race it might be a little bit different story. 4mesh said it best, you don't shoot it why do you care what we do on the east coast.

You have made this adult conversation very childish with remarks of knowledge about me and fouron. Lets try not to make this personal. After all in the end we all do this for fun and will never get back what we put in. Self satisfaction and fellowship with friends is what its about for me.
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Mike In Co
I think of all the posts here 4Mesh came the closest to an actual answer to your question while the rest just wanted to argue with you for asking a very simple question.

It appears that many moons ago the match winner was probaly the only shooter with all of his shots on paper.In those days with so many shooters off the target it was probaly easier to just give the trophy to the last man standing.

You know of the problems out west and two relatively simple rules were keeping us from swapping organizations.One of those has been changed now so I will see if we can suck it up so to speak and switch.This would basicaly bring the longrange game under 2 roofs instead of three.
Lynn
 
Going back to June of 68, here's a wailing wall photo showing typical match results of the time. This was probably at a time when there had been no more than 3 or 4 matches shot, ever. It took many years before hitting the target was taken for granted. However, even then, people shot 10 match aggs (had 100 shots on for the 10 matches of the year).

At this time, they were still measuring with a Lufkin rule or tape measure. Group sizes were fractional.

As for "That's the way we've always done it", I don't really think that applies here. I think the rule has not changed because most shooters here LIKE the idea of needing all the shots on paper to count.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/images/full/Image16.jpg
 
Phil, the "me-me" boys are only interested in things that fit their world view. Makes it hard to have a discussion. I'm not going to try anymore.
 
Charles E
Actually Mike asked a very simple question and never got a answer.
He got a lot of mad people on here asking him why he wanted to change the rules and he never said anything at all about changing the rules.
4Mesh came the closest to an actual answer and all of your negative sarcastic responses typical of your latest postings have done nothing to answer the question just waste bandwith.
It is okay not to respond if you don't know an answer,
Lynn
 
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