Ok so you like either Rem 700s or Savages for Tactical . My Mod 70 classic in 270 WSM shoots great ! No its not a tactical rifle. I can most of the time get 1/2MOA at 100 yards with tailored hand loads.Is it because of some of the metal is below par? I can get that replaced. Mine has a Timney trigger and action has been bedded, laminated stock. So whats the problem?
Why don't you like my Mod 70 Classic
- Thread starter Worker
- Start date
None of the above. It's a FINE hunter, I've got the same thing as a 25-06. But just use it for hunting. I also have a couple of pre-64's I'm gonna' hack up for hunters, but NOT for long-range guns. They're generally incapable of truly fine accuracy. There are a lot of reasons, some of them incurable.
my opinion
al
my opinion
al
What did Sgt Carlos Hathcock use in Veitnam ?
I thought Sct Carlos Hathcock used a Mod 70 for his sniper missions in Veitnam? ( Its been a long time since I read that book,don't have a copy)So what about the push fed Mod 70? Is it about lock time? So does a Savage have fast lock time? Post before me is about an FN mauser,what about the current version in gun shops now? They sure have the look of a fine long range rifle?
I thought Sct Carlos Hathcock used a Mod 70 for his sniper missions in Veitnam? ( Its been a long time since I read that book,don't have a copy)So what about the push fed Mod 70? Is it about lock time? So does a Savage have fast lock time? Post before me is about an FN mauser,what about the current version in gun shops now? They sure have the look of a fine long range rifle?
That was some 40 odd years ago.
The capability of the current sniper forces is difficult to fathom.
For instance, I believe the record distance for a confirmed kill was 2700 yards by a Canadian sniper in Afganistan.
The equipment they use is constantly evolving, although the bulk of rifles used are based on the Rem. 700.
Unless your hunting requires shots beyond 500 yards, why be concerned about fast lock time, or if your rifle can only shoot .5 moa?
The capability of the current sniper forces is difficult to fathom.
For instance, I believe the record distance for a confirmed kill was 2700 yards by a Canadian sniper in Afganistan.
The equipment they use is constantly evolving, although the bulk of rifles used are based on the Rem. 700.
Unless your hunting requires shots beyond 500 yards, why be concerned about fast lock time, or if your rifle can only shoot .5 moa?
short answer....
.....the Rem. 700 is the "small block Chevy" of bolt actions.....been around for nearly 50 years so that there's a multitude of aftermarket parts, off- the -shelf tooling allowing the week-end warrior machinist to easily true the actions, and the knowledge of how to make them accurate is universal (although some go about it differently).
When Sako, Winchester, and Cooper start showing up on the win list with regularity in competition, only then will shooters migrate away from Savage and Remington.
.....the Rem. 700 is the "small block Chevy" of bolt actions.....been around for nearly 50 years so that there's a multitude of aftermarket parts, off- the -shelf tooling allowing the week-end warrior machinist to easily true the actions, and the knowledge of how to make them accurate is universal (although some go about it differently).
When Sako, Winchester, and Cooper start showing up on the win list with regularity in competition, only then will shooters migrate away from Savage and Remington.
P
Paul Fielder
Guest
I'm stubborn...
...but I love the pre 64's!!
Pretty sure I would go for the 700 over any post 64.
I have seen some fine custom shop post 64 70's with Krieger tubes shoot very well. Pretty expensive too.
pf
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...but I love the pre 64's!!
Pretty sure I would go for the 700 over any post 64.
I have seen some fine custom shop post 64 70's with Krieger tubes shoot very well. Pretty expensive too.
pf
<><
Remember this Worker..... You asked your question on an ACCURACY forum, the premier accuracy forum on earth. ACCURACY trumps all else here and the M70's CANNOT BE MADE TO BE AS ACCURATE!!! Every time someone states "well they're just like the others, but...." it's compounding your confusion. I'm trying to cut to the chase here, IT WILL NOT SHOOT with the Remington/Savage crowd.
There are measurable and demonstrable REASONS for this...... It'll be "just fine" for hunting, and for most folks around ...... but you're spending money poorly trying to make it ACCURATE.
Sorry for the yelling but this IS Bench Rest Central.....
al
There are measurable and demonstrable REASONS for this...... It'll be "just fine" for hunting, and for most folks around ...... but you're spending money poorly trying to make it ACCURATE.
Sorry for the yelling but this IS Bench Rest Central.....
al
R
roninflag
Guest
model 70
i picked a model 70 stealth 22-250 . my gunsmith won't work on it( put a new barrrel ) so i have to sell it or send it to someone i don't know. model 70 super grade 300wm shoots 1/2 inch
i picked a model 70 stealth 22-250 . my gunsmith won't work on it( put a new barrrel ) so i have to sell it or send it to someone i don't know. model 70 super grade 300wm shoots 1/2 inch
G
Ginner
Guest
257 Roberts....
Dad just gave me a beautiful model 70 featherweight classic in 257 Roberts that has never been scoped or even fired. He bought it back in the mid-eighties as an investment and its been in the gun cabinet ever since. Gotta admit, it is a beautiful rifle. Now he wants me to go trade it in on a Remington pump but how do I know what its really worth?
Dad just gave me a beautiful model 70 featherweight classic in 257 Roberts that has never been scoped or even fired. He bought it back in the mid-eighties as an investment and its been in the gun cabinet ever since. Gotta admit, it is a beautiful rifle. Now he wants me to go trade it in on a Remington pump but how do I know what its really worth?
A
Ackman
Guest
So what's the point? What it it you're after? So your 70 is bedded and it has a Timney trigger, and shoots 1/2moa - most of the time - and you like the gun. Bully for you, and so what?
M
Michael Sherman
Guest
Insurmountable reasons?
What are the reasons a Model# 70 can't be made to shot as well as any other action?
What are the reasons a Model# 70 can't be made to shot as well as any other action?
Action flex is the biggie. Guys have been sleeving Remingtons to combat this for decades, the M70 is more flexible and nearly impossible to sleeve. For sports where accuracy requirements are 1/2moa or more it's no big deal but to get down into "the twos" and stay there is well nigh impossible.
And truing them up is tough... you don't generally see guys align boring them and installing Borden Bumps and stuff because without you stiffen them it's like pushing a noodle. For a Win70 it's generally considered to be total makeover just to chase out the front half.
If they worked "like Remingtons" you'd see them on the line, they don't. Savages on the other hand came from the gutter to the street BECAUSE "form follows function"
al
Ackman No point just posting questions
I just wanted to know why the 700 is so raved about in view of the accuracy I'm getting out of my Mod 70? Take an aspirin and call me in the morning
I just wanted to know why the 700 is so raved about in view of the accuracy I'm getting out of my Mod 70? Take an aspirin and call me in the morning
V
vicvanb
Guest
Keep It!!! It's A Winner.
If this is true don't let anyone tell you that you will get better accuracy out of another brand of rifle. In fact, odds are you will get LARGER groups than with your M70.
You will get many purely theoretical comments on the merits of other brands of rifles compared to yours. Your M70 is giving you real-world results that are excellent.
If anyone doesn't like your M70 for whatever reason, ignore them.
If this is true don't let anyone tell you that you will get better accuracy out of another brand of rifle. In fact, odds are you will get LARGER groups than with your M70.
You will get many purely theoretical comments on the merits of other brands of rifles compared to yours. Your M70 is giving you real-world results that are excellent.
If anyone doesn't like your M70 for whatever reason, ignore them.
Delimas with Model 70s
The Winchester Centerfire bolt actions has had its ups and downs over the years. Prior to 1964 they were an industry standard. There changes between 1964 and 1969 were devestating. In 1969 they made some improvement that saved them from going down the crapper.
Remingtons became the industry standard and the aftermarket parts have kept them going ever since. When the patents expired, and clone makers came along they have made a better mouse trap in the foot print of the Remington model 700. There are some very nice clones of the pre64 Winchesters IE: Kimbers, Dakotas, and Montanas etc. However they are pricy and after market parts are few.
Since Winchester moved form Conn. to SC the FN plant is now making them. Their price is high and so is their quality. Thay have chanced their trigger and gone back to a claw extractor.
The reason you have not seen many Winchesters in tha tactical world is ecconomic. The reason you have not seen the WSSM cartirdges in the tactical world is also ecconomic. Thw WSSM cartridges are all barrel burners in comparison to others already there. The WSSM cartirdges are under the patents of Rick Jamison and he requires a fee to use them. Many gun makers have dropped their manufacture of WSSM rifles. Several of the ammunition makers have dropped the WSSM lines from their product line as it is not profitable to make ammunition for rifles not being made any more.
Hope this has answered som of your questions.
Rustystud
The Winchester Centerfire bolt actions has had its ups and downs over the years. Prior to 1964 they were an industry standard. There changes between 1964 and 1969 were devestating. In 1969 they made some improvement that saved them from going down the crapper.
Remingtons became the industry standard and the aftermarket parts have kept them going ever since. When the patents expired, and clone makers came along they have made a better mouse trap in the foot print of the Remington model 700. There are some very nice clones of the pre64 Winchesters IE: Kimbers, Dakotas, and Montanas etc. However they are pricy and after market parts are few.
Since Winchester moved form Conn. to SC the FN plant is now making them. Their price is high and so is their quality. Thay have chanced their trigger and gone back to a claw extractor.
The reason you have not seen many Winchesters in tha tactical world is ecconomic. The reason you have not seen the WSSM cartirdges in the tactical world is also ecconomic. Thw WSSM cartridges are all barrel burners in comparison to others already there. The WSSM cartirdges are under the patents of Rick Jamison and he requires a fee to use them. Many gun makers have dropped their manufacture of WSSM rifles. Several of the ammunition makers have dropped the WSSM lines from their product line as it is not profitable to make ammunition for rifles not being made any more.
Hope this has answered som of your questions.
Rustystud
Boyd Allen
Active member
When you say "don't like" I would have to to ask, for what? For a field rifle they can be just fine. I have one in .222 that does a good job. If however you are talking about competition from the bench, there are several reasons that I would not pick a Winchester action as a starting point for a Benchrest rifle.
Lets start with resale. All the non action costs will be the same as for any other action. If you built a 1,000 Benchrest rifle on a Winchester, the chances that someone will give you a good price for it when you decide to move on is about nil.
Next, let's look at design. Because the width of the locking lugs is narrower than a Remington, giving direct support of fewer degrees of the case head, no less an authority than the late Creighton Audette opined that this resulted in reduced accuracy potential. Also, it has been demonstrated that the smaller tenon diameter (1" vs. 1 1/16") causes a tight bolt to occur at lower pressures with large diameter cases.
Now let us turn to bedding. The shape of the Winchester tang ( a critical area in bedding because of the forces exerted on such a small area) is not a good one in terms of effective area to be bedded, as well as the shape of that area as compared with that of round actions.
Next, let us look at gunsmiths. As far as I am aware, there are no gunsmiths that have experience in building a winning Benchrest rifle based on a Winchester action. This alone should send up a flag. Truing actions to Benchrest standards requires tooling that is adapted to the task. Most of the available tooling is for round actions. Finally, you should consider the availability of aftermarket parts such as stocks. While it is true that almost any stock could be adapted to a Winchester, this would require additional work, increasing the cost of the rifle. There are probably other reasons that I have not thought of, but these should give you a start.
Lets start with resale. All the non action costs will be the same as for any other action. If you built a 1,000 Benchrest rifle on a Winchester, the chances that someone will give you a good price for it when you decide to move on is about nil.
Next, let's look at design. Because the width of the locking lugs is narrower than a Remington, giving direct support of fewer degrees of the case head, no less an authority than the late Creighton Audette opined that this resulted in reduced accuracy potential. Also, it has been demonstrated that the smaller tenon diameter (1" vs. 1 1/16") causes a tight bolt to occur at lower pressures with large diameter cases.
Now let us turn to bedding. The shape of the Winchester tang ( a critical area in bedding because of the forces exerted on such a small area) is not a good one in terms of effective area to be bedded, as well as the shape of that area as compared with that of round actions.
Next, let us look at gunsmiths. As far as I am aware, there are no gunsmiths that have experience in building a winning Benchrest rifle based on a Winchester action. This alone should send up a flag. Truing actions to Benchrest standards requires tooling that is adapted to the task. Most of the available tooling is for round actions. Finally, you should consider the availability of aftermarket parts such as stocks. While it is true that almost any stock could be adapted to a Winchester, this would require additional work, increasing the cost of the rifle. There are probably other reasons that I have not thought of, but these should give you a start.
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The Model 70 is an awesome hunting rifle.........Although for out of the box accuracy work, I'll choose a Remington 700, Savage or Cooper (Although recent, last ten to fifteen year, Remingtons are suspect)
But for hunting, there is none better than the "Rifleman's Rifle", Winchester Model 70 (Pre 64 or Classic versions please)
Why?
Very simple trigger to work on and impervious to all the crud and junk you might get into the trigger on a tough hunt. Just about impossible to freeze in freezing conditions.
A safety that locks the firing pin back, not simply the trigger
You can cycle the bolt with complete safety because of the above
Extremely easy field stripping of the bolt
the "Featherweight" version is just about the most comfortable rifle to carry. Perfect balance. (And beautiful looks to boot!)
Controlled round feed.....Not a deal breaker, but nice to have.
I have a 338 Win Mag "Stainless Synthetic", 270 Featherweight, and a 6.5 X 55 Swedish Featherweight as my "Go To" hunting rifles............But as much time as I've spent time with them, and used every advanced reloading trick in the book, they are 1" rifles. I've even rebarreled the 270 with an aftermarket barrel and it was still barely better than 1"........But 1" is easily "minute of Deer, Elk or Moose".............
I've owned a couple of "Stealth" and "Varmint" versions. Just don't have the out of the box accuracy as my Savages or older Remingtons. They were not "minute of prairie dog" rifles. They were traded off long ago.........
Rifles are like motor vehicles.........You need a Porsche, Pickup, SUV and a "Big ol Four Door" to cover all the bases...........Thank God rifles are only a few hundred bucks apiece.................
But for hunting, there is none better than the "Rifleman's Rifle", Winchester Model 70 (Pre 64 or Classic versions please)
Why?
Very simple trigger to work on and impervious to all the crud and junk you might get into the trigger on a tough hunt. Just about impossible to freeze in freezing conditions.
A safety that locks the firing pin back, not simply the trigger
You can cycle the bolt with complete safety because of the above
Extremely easy field stripping of the bolt
the "Featherweight" version is just about the most comfortable rifle to carry. Perfect balance. (And beautiful looks to boot!)
Controlled round feed.....Not a deal breaker, but nice to have.
I have a 338 Win Mag "Stainless Synthetic", 270 Featherweight, and a 6.5 X 55 Swedish Featherweight as my "Go To" hunting rifles............But as much time as I've spent time with them, and used every advanced reloading trick in the book, they are 1" rifles. I've even rebarreled the 270 with an aftermarket barrel and it was still barely better than 1"........But 1" is easily "minute of Deer, Elk or Moose".............
I've owned a couple of "Stealth" and "Varmint" versions. Just don't have the out of the box accuracy as my Savages or older Remingtons. They were not "minute of prairie dog" rifles. They were traded off long ago.........
Rifles are like motor vehicles.........You need a Porsche, Pickup, SUV and a "Big ol Four Door" to cover all the bases...........Thank God rifles are only a few hundred bucks apiece.................
Great information men but I !
All great information fellow shooters. But I get under 1"MOA frequently ? Is it a fluke? I had a Timney trigger installed and a bedding job done.This BBL seems to like bullets jammed into rifling lands.One thing for sure is it collects to copper quite easily . I fill the bbl with "Wipe out" it comes out a deep navy blue 8 hours later after less then 30 rnds .
All great information fellow shooters. But I get under 1"MOA frequently ? Is it a fluke? I had a Timney trigger installed and a bedding job done.This BBL seems to like bullets jammed into rifling lands.One thing for sure is it collects to copper quite easily . I fill the bbl with "Wipe out" it comes out a deep navy blue 8 hours later after less then 30 rnds .
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