What's in a name?

Pete Wass

Pete Wass

Well-known member
I was looking through the results of the ARA Indoor Nationals last night and there in the equipment list I found the following, which I was surrised to find. Of the top 10 Rifles/ shooters there were 3 Turbos, 3 Halls, 3 4o-x and one Time. Of the top 15 there were 4 Halls, 3 Turbos, 3 40-Xs, 3 Swindlehearst, 1 Time and 1 Suhl. Of the top 20there were 6- 40xs, 5-Turbos 4-Halls and 3-Swindlehearsts,1 Time and 1 Suhl.

Of the total 57 shooters/rifles, not knowing if shooters shared any of the rifles, 21 were Smithed by Gorham, 9 by Calfee, 5 by "other", 4 by Self, 4 by Barnes,3 by Leger, 3 by Eck, 2 by Brock, 2 by Myers, 2 by SPF 1 by Volker and 1 by Messer. Of the top 10, 3 were Smithed by Calfee, 3 by Gorahm, 2 by Leger, 1 by Brock and 1 by Self.

So then the Question: What's in a name?


Pete
 
As with any other products, people tend to patronize those individuals, companies and products that have the best reputation for quality and dependability. This holds just as true in the benchrest world where highly competitive shooters with fat wallets tend to buy those actions with the best reputation for performance and use those gunsmiths with the best reputation for excellence. In the real world of most ordinary benchrest shooters who shoot locally in clubs and fun matches, most of the rifles are from factories with whatever modifications that the shooters can afford. As for the specific names that you mention, I do read a lot of extremely favorable things vis-a-vis the Turbo actions and the gunsmithing of Bill Calfee.

Cordially,
Blanco
 
Blanco said:
As with any other products, people tend to patronize those individuals, companies and products that have the best reputation for quality and dependability. This holds just as true in the benchrest world where highly competitive shooters with fat wallets tend to buy those actions with the best reputation for performance and use those gunsmiths with the best reputation for excellence. In the real world of most ordinary benchrest shooters who shoot locally in clubs and fun matches, most of the rifles are from factories with whatever modifications that the shooters can afford. As for the specific names that you mention, I do read a lot of extremely favorable things vis-a-vis the Turbo actions and the gunsmithing of Bill Calfee.

Cordially,
Blanco
Click to expand...

Several things reveal themselves from these stats In my opinion. One is the number of 40-x and Hall action up near the top. Another, the Smiths who made them. It certainly doesn't appear to be domination to me. Now, the shooter is another matter.
 
whats in a name?

well the first thing i must point out is jerry stillers comment regarding charactor on another board! i have always contended give a true God blessed shooter a piece of pipe and a trigger and he will figure out a way to make a shoot.

my neighbor has a wall covered with plaques from shoots including many at the st. louis benrest club but he shoots sillioute. which brings up another story he shoots 40x s and he wore out a barrell he found a guy that drove a truck to rebarrell his rifle. gary broke the barrell in and went right back to his championship shooting.

now saying that gary is a tinker on hipower he has the very best in loading stuff but his last comment was now he is starting to think everytime he shoots there goes anywhere from 20c to 50c downrange so even the money guys are rethiking things.

bob
 
these top smiths, what would one be looking at in terms of a build time?
 
All have lead times but the biggest variable is materials. If he has the action and barrel and stock, or you do, it's not bad but if you have to wait for a barrel or action that is not in stock somewhere, it can drag out for a long time. The work can be done in a few weeks.
 
Pete Wass said:
So then the Question: What's in a name? Pete
Click to expand...

Pete

In the situation to which you refer the answer to your question varies from very very little to sod all.

The trick to what you are alluding too is all about product placement! Build enough product, place that product in the right hands, (this can be achieved using various incentives), let those hands do what they do best and you have your name on the leader board. You can then go boast that you're unbeatable and other BS.

I've seen it done, several times by various manufactures of differing products.Theres nothing really new in the ploy.
 
Hambone said:
The trick to what you are alluding too is all about product placement! Build enough product, place that product in the right hands, (this can be achieved using various incentives), let those hands do what they do best and you have your name on the leader board. You can then go boast that you're unbeatable and other BS.
Click to expand...
Damn! You're not just a pretty face!
 
well gary was lucky how this barrell thing worked i dont know i dont know the truckdrivers name and he cant remember it. this is a r/f b/r comment far as i can see and i can think of six or 7 very good smiths to make a 22 b/rest rifle and to guarrentee it would shoot. i think each one of them has a few tricks they use whether known by other smiths or not most im sure are. i guess the question is just how much are you willing to spend now take a guy like tony boyer and just his name alone will get each and every smith interested.

personally i think any of them could build him a winning rifle because lets face it tony is a gifted shooter. i am going to suggest he did not pay 10k for his rifle but i would suggest he paid much less and i think any smith would be very fair to him to get his rifle in the winners circle.

bob
 
Hambone said:
Pete

In the situation to which you refer the answer to your question varies from very very little to sod all.

The trick to what you are alluding too is all about product placement! Build enough product, place that product in the right hands, (this can be achieved using various incentives), let those hands do what they do best and you have your name on the leader board. You can then go boast that you're unbeatable and other BS.

I've seen it done, several times by various manufactures of differing products.Theres nothing really new in the ploy.
Click to expand...

I thought it to be a fair question and the reality that perhaps there is more than one brand of action capable of winning matches and more than one Smith capable of turning out rifles that are equally competative.

Actually, I place more importance on the barrel / ammo combo than anything else, all else being equal, which there seems to be some signs of if one thinks through the Action part. I realize the platform under it needs to be up to par but the magic is not the platform in my opinion. The entire package has to be working and there is a lot more to it than what I am indicating here but there is HOPE for us. There are more than one rifle and one Smith to make them that are capable of winning. Hope springs eternal in the hearts of men, don't it?;)
 
Last edited:
you left out a name (and number)

All the names listed are certainly critical to success.
But it's the names in the other column you didn't reference and a number that isn't listed that separates the equipment.

Barrel and lot combination is everything.

All the guys you listed definitely know their way around a piece of metal.
And the actions you listed can all perform at a BR level.

But without a good barrel and a good matched lot of bullets, the names on those two lists won't mean much.
Granted, put a good barrel in any of those guys hands and you can probably eliminate the barrel as a gap.

But is still comes back to the shooter to find a tune and a good lot of bullets for the gun.
 
Finding a smith and the right equipment is easy. Just go to a ARA Major Nationals or PSL Match, and Dan has everything you need. No waiting. At least , that the way it's been at the last shoots I've been too that he was set up. Of course, you don't have to attend, you can contact Dan Killough at KSS by email or phone and just order what you need. If you want something exotic, then you might have to wait, so in the mean time, just pick up one of the fine used match ready guns he has available. Dan can also put you onto some fine smiths.
 
Last edited:
Slick Willy said:
Women & Ammo---Use to chase former,now the latter; both are expensive!
Click to expand...

When you get to be my age, your interests may change, as mine did. The ammo is a lot less expensive, both in money and time. For 3 or 4 K one can buy enough ammo to last a couple of years. My last woman cost me roughly 300K and my home. I'll chase the ammo as long as they will let me drive.
 
What works

cwop said:
well the first thing i must point out is jerry stillers comment regarding charactor on another board! i have always contended give a true God blessed shooter a piece of pipe and a trigger and he will figure out a way to make a shoot.




He is right there are some people you could give a 10,000,000 rifle and they couldn't hit the brood side of a barn and some can shoot clay pigeons with a quackenbush folder. A really well made gun gives a good shooter an edge over another good shooter, and the smith matters in that a good one gets the feel of the person he is building for and makes him a gun that will be natural for them to shoot
Click to expand...
 
well this brings up another story i had an old friend that duck hunted with an lc smith 12 gauge. leo was good at anything he did his good friend wasnt he couldnt hit anything anywhere. so the good friend bought himself the best browning superposed he could find. guess what? he still couldnt hit anything leo used to get the biggest kick out of it and his cheap 12 side by side!!

so it proves out my theory doesnt it? now if i was a good smith i would probably almost give tony a b/r rifle to shoot i wonder how many has been sold off that one transaction?

bob
 
cwop said:
well this brings up another story i had an old friend that duck hunted with an lc smith 12 gauge. leo was good at anything he did his good friend wasnt he couldnt hit anything anywhere. so the good friend bought himself the best browning superposed he could find. guess what? he still couldnt hit anything leo used to get the biggest kick out of it and his cheap 12 side by side!!

so it proves out my theory doesnt it? now if i was a good smith i would probably almost give tony a b/r rifle to shoot i wonder how many has been sold off that one transaction?

bob
Click to expand...
The big difference between Shotguns and BR rifles is a Shotgun must fit the shooter. Doesn't have anything to do with the barrels or loads but all to do with how the gun is mounted to the shooters shoulder. I am willing to bet a lot of money that the best shooter at any match could not wish in the bullets that come out of the rifles out of tune.

Jackie Schmidt, over on the CF forums has said repeatedly for years that 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune at any given match or time. I don't think things are any different in the RF world. The top shooters have rifles that are in tune, ergo, they win. Legends are made by hard work, not strictly by magical abilities. I'll bet Tony or anyone else at the top work pretty hard to be there and to stay there.


fit
 
Last edited:
cwop;659539 so it proves out my theory doesnt it? now if i was a good smith i would probably almost give tony a b/r rifle to shoot i wonder how many has been sold off that one transaction? bob[/QUOTE said:
Bob, Tony Boyer has been shooting 22RFBR about 2 years and has not brought his CF game out yet,or was you talking about the other Tony,Tony Harper ,he is the Tony in 22RFBR and the one Tony every one has to beat in 2012! The other Tonys know who THE TONY is!
Click to expand...
 
Pete Wass said:
The big difference between Shotguns and BR rifles is a Shotgun must fit the shooter. Doesn't have anything to do with the barrels or loads but all to do with how the gun is mounted to the shooters shoulder. I am willing to bet a lot of money that the best shooter at any match could not wish in the bullets that come out of the rifles out of tune.

Jackie Schmidt, over on the CF forums has said repeatedly for years that 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune at any given match or time. I don't think things are any different in the RF world. The top shooters have rifles that are in tune, ergo, they win. Legends are made by hard work, not strictly by magical abilities. I'll bet Tony or anyone else at the top work pretty hard to be there and to stay there.


fit
Click to expand...

Pete,
I agree it is all about having the ability, the right barrel, the right ammo AND most importantly it tuned properly to its top potential....I think there are a ton of killer rifles out there that will never see thier full potential because they have not been tuned properly and not have those special ammo lots recognized.

Not to turn this into another Calfee thread, but you have to agree that he build a competetive rifle........ we may not agree with the way he explains things or his theories but I think in the end he does know how to tune a rifle and is laying a properly tuned rifle in the hands of his clients. His clients are then left only to chase the ammo. I think there are many chasing a tune and chasing ammo at the same time, and with those two constant changing variables may never get them both right at the same time.


Just my opinion.
Charlie
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top