What reloading tools to buy?

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DoubleGobble00

Guest
I want to upgrade my reloading procedures and brass prep for my 6.5x47 lapua. I have a little money that I want to spend on it. I am just not sure which tools I should buy first. What tools for reloading or brass prep will increase accuracy more?

I am shooting a Savage Varmint action, HS precision stock, Shilen barrel, and 8.5-25x50 VXIII. It currently can shoot small 100 yard groups in the 2's and I have shot some 1 inch groups at 400 and 1.5 inch at 600 yards. It just is not consistent and would like to close the gaps further or keep it consistently shooting tight.

Right now I have RCBS Rockchunker, digital scale, trickler, RCBS hand primer, primer pocket cleaner, FL Forestner Sizing and Seating dies, and reloading tray.

Things I would like to buy but not sure where to put my money first:
Arbor Press
Wilson Dies
neck turner
primer pocket uniformer
Deburring tool for flash holes
VLD chaffering tool
Case Trimmer
Bullet comparitor
Concentricity Gage
Caliphers

If you have any other recommendations let me know. I appreciate all the help.

DoubleG
 
There's nothing wrong with the list of equipment you've listed except that most shooters have come to the conclusion that FL sizing gives more uniform chambering. A tight chambering case or two will mess up groups or scores as quickly as anything else, and it screws up your concentration too (which also doesn't help anything).

Lapua cases mostly don't need to have their primer pockets uniformed or flashholes deburred either.

If your chamber is tight necked then you'll need something to turn the necks with. I use and like the K&M neck turner, others have other preferences.

A comparator, either from Sinclair or Hornady is needed to determine seating since OAL's will vary even with the best bullets, and if you have time on your hands they can be used to measure bullets from ogive to base too.

I use a VLD chamfering tool on all my rifle cases just to ease seating even with - or maybe especially with - flatbase bullets.

Wilson's case trimmer is THE ONE.

A good set of dial or digital calipers, 4" or 6", is needed.

A concentricity gauge can be handy if it's used, I have two and they mostly keep a shelf from flying around my loading room by itself. They're good dust collectors too.

If you're going to load at the range a lighter press like the RCBS Partner or similar is handy. The Forster dies should work well if the sizer is the bushing type for sizing the necks, and their seater is good too. A micrometer top on the seater is handy. Otherwise Redding competition dies are excellent.

For loading at the range, and even at home a good powder measure is handy too.

It rapidly gets expensive, but good (loading) tools will outlast you, and maybe your kids if they're taken care of.

If you don't have them Precision Shooting's loading manual (techniques only) and Glen Zediker's book Handloading for Competition are both good though not specific manuals that are good references.
 
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Thanks Larry.. I appreciate the help and information. Looks like a need the calipers, case trimmer, comparator, and VLD chamfering tool first. Then I can increase my equipment more later on...

What is the difference in the $20 calipers and the $100 calipers?

I don't have a tight necked chamber so I guess the neck turning would do me no good. I didn't know if it would help give consistent neck tension even tho my chamber is not tight.

My forstner dies are not the bushing style dies. They are the cheapest ones forstner offers. I think they are Benchrest dies and the set was about $65 I believe.

DoubleG
 
DoubleGobble00 said:
Thanks Larry.. I appreciate the help and information. Looks like a need the calipers, case trimmer, comparator, and VLD chamfering tool first. Then I can increase my equipment more later on...

What is the difference in the $20 calipers and the $100 calipers?

I don't have a tight necked chamber so I guess the neck turning would do me no good. I didn't know if it would help give consistent neck tension even tho my chamber is not tight.

My forstner dies are not the bushing style dies. They are the cheapest ones forstner offers. I think they are Benchrest dies and the set was about $65 I believe.

DoubleG
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80.00 I have checked the calipers I got at harbor fright for 20.00 with a feeler gage and I can't load that close.
 
The more expensive tools, calipers specifically, will likely last longer and work better for as long as you have them. I have some 4" Mitutoyos that I got in the early 70's that are still doing the job, a set of Chinese 4" dial calipers from Harbor Freight that seem to work well enough for casual use, and a couple of sets of digital calipers I got from Enco. I like the dial calipers, but the digitals are good for comparative measurement since they can be zeroed on the run. The digitals usually also allow measurements in either inches or millimeters without having to do conversions.

Enco is a good place to look for measuring tools, and they have calipers and mikes from about the cheapest to very good quality with commensurate prices. Their website is <www.use-enco.com> and their online catalog is fairly good.
 
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I really think Larry Elliot is a fine gentleman, and a swell guy who is only too happy to help others. But....I must respectfully disagree with him that concentricity gages are largely devices designed to gather dust on a shelf.

When I discovered how these devices can make the occurrence of those pesky flyers in an otherwise tight group suddenly disappear, I bought 2 more gages, for a total of 3 gages at my reloading bench!! I have 2 Sinclair Concentricity gages, and one Redding case neck gage.The Sinclair gages are especially useful. I set one Sinclair gage to check case neck concentricity after the case has been sized, and the other gage to check the concentricity near the tip of the bullet in a completed round. Seeking fine accuracy, I practically never handload without them.

For many years I was ignorant to the use (ie: the existence) of this tool. It was common for me to have many 4 or 5 shot target groups spoiled by one flyer. I could never understand it, and it was very frustrating. Well, lo and behold...after discovering and using a concentricity gage during the reloading process for the first time, the proof was clear to see at the firing range. The completed rounds that were only off perhaps 3,000th's to 4 or 5,000th's in concentricity would group into a tight 1/4" cluster, while the final test round that was off say maybe perhaps 9,000th's would often end up being the flyer. I found this to be the case many times at the firng range.

A concentricity gage is not the only answer for tight and uniform results, but to me it is one important tool in the process, and I will no longer attempt to handload a precision round without it.
 
Doublegobble,

Lissen to Larry......

And now, I'm going to go another way here...... :) MY OPINION, based on using/owning every tool, die and gadget known to man or beast.....

IMO you need to spend some money on ONE and only one tool. There's one specific tool which pretty much eliminates the need for all the others.

Get a fitted sizing die.

This will cost you between 80 and 200 dollars all by itself.


-------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the other stuff, your list:



Arbor Press- handy but not really needed. I'd make this your SECOND purchase, along with a hand seater. (Wilson seater)

Wilson Dies- cool for varmint hunting but really kindofa' luxury. Wilson dies preclude you from loading hot and WILL cost you money when you gall your lugs.... The perfect setup IMO is to get an arbor press and a Wilson SEATER only. Use your old press and buy a good threaded die. CUSTOM die, NOT an off-the-shelf die from Redding/RCBS/Forster/Hornady/etc as these are not going to fit you. And none of them are "better" than the others, just more money.

neck turner- a complete and utter waste of time unless you've got a tightneck chamber. Will make your accuracy WORSE not better.


primer pocket uniformer- waste of time, use Lapua brass and ignore the pockets.

Deburring tool for flash holes- read above re Lapua brass.

VLD chaffering tool- again, luxury item unless you've a tight-neck/short-neck.

Case Trimmer- again, WHY??? if your brass fits now, WHY make it shorter?

Bullet comparitor- completely useless for what you're doing. Now if you DO get a caliper then buy an ogive "nut" comparator from Sinclair International. Under ten bucks, ALL you need.

Concentricity Gage- a complete waste of money....if your cases are crooked you can't "straighten" them and the problem lies elsewhere, specifically IN THE FL DIE! :) This gauge does nothing to help you in your quest for accuracy except show you where you've screwed up... get a real sizing die and YOU DON'T NEED IT! And no matter what anybody tells you, "straight" ammo doesn't shoot better in a sloppy rifle. If your neck has excess clearance your rifle cannot shoot well and no "straight ammo" can fix it. Fireform right, keep neck clearance to a minimum, set your die right and you CANNOT have crooked ammunition....... therefore the concentricity gauge is useless. I have three, I'm a slow learner, it took that long to figger out that they're useless!! I haven't used one in 15yrs......


Caliphers- calipers are HANDY, and are a complete necessity if you're turning/trimming necks etc but if you've got a no-turn, no-trim neck you DO NOT need them. Set for initial load by jamming it in the lands and you can adjust your seating die from there. On the Wilson seater one full turn = 40 thousandths. Other seaters are similarly used. Just use the screw function as a micrometer (that's what a micrometer or caliper IS anyway!) and you really don't NEED any of the stuff listed to make accurate ammo.


Let me put it this way. Given your rifle and your current reloading gear I could order up a sizing die and be making perfectly straight ammo thereafter. Problem solved for less money.

Now if you LIKE gadgets and widgets...... if you WANT stuff to look good on your reloading room shelves...... then have at it!

But I say, get a die. Be done.

opinionsby


al
 
A "fine gentleman" indeed! If I'd known this was going to get insulting I'd have never commented in the first place. :eek: :D :D
 
Larry Elliott said:
A "fine gentleman" indeed! If I'd known this was going to get insulting I'd have never commented in the first place. :eek: :D :D
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Larry, I hope you were really kidding, and I haven't hurt your feelings. I was voicing an opposing opinion as respectfully as one could ever try. You have offered me helpful advice in the past when I knew a lot less, and I say it with sincerity that you're one of the last people here who'd I want to offend. :)

Doublegobble;

If you don't have gages, then you can't check your work. It's that simple.

I commonly will use my 2 concentricity gages to check the completed round, as well as find and reject a sized case that is badly inconcentric. I have forster dies, Redding Bushing dies, and Wilson in-line seating dies, and trust me when I say not every sized case, or finished cartridge is going to come out perfect on the first attempt. Some are way off! This is especially so when you are making a custom case, and sizing a larger case down to shape. In my latest project, I am currently sizing 6.5x47 Lapua cases down to 6mm and then 22 to make the 22x47L. I'd like to know who gets a perfect concentrically shaped case (down to within 1,000ths of an inch or less of distortion)when reforming brass, or even doing simple resizing. Heck, some of my new Lapua 6.5x47 brass out of the box is already giving a reading of 2000th's of an inch. It is very common for me to proceed to rework most problem cases until I get near concentric perfection, and better then what came out of the new box! But, without the gages how the heck can you know what you're producing?

I confess that I have never used competition grade dies, or custom tailored or "fitted" dies. I can just tell you that after having used factory made Forster, Redding Bushing dies, and Wilson inline seater dies, I would feel blind to handload but not have concentricity gages.

And yes, Larry is right about the calipers, and I pretty much do the same as he does; I use a Mitatoyo dial caliper for serious measuring, and a Harbor Freight for "on the run" more casual double checking. I'll also tell you that I opened about 7 boxes of calipers at the Harbor Freight store to find the one digital caliper that gave a measurement consistantly within 1,000th of my Mitatoyo caliper that I snuck into the store with me just for comparison readings. I got the Harbor Freight caliper for $16 on sale, but look what I had to go to to find a really good one that was almost as accurate as my Mitatoyo.....I had to open 7 boxes. Like they say, you usually get what you pay for. (but I cheated this time.) And yes, I open and reclose my boxes in that store as neat as I handload. ;) Nobody knew that they had been analy inspected.

BTW, when I said in my last post that I get really good target groups with cartridges that give a reading of say 4,000ths on my Sinclair concentricity gage, the reading is actually half that, because the case does not spin on its axis. (So the finished round actually has half the distortion of the indicated 4,000ths reading, and is actually only off 2,000ths of an inch.)


And yes, I do have every tool you mentioned on that list. Though I may not use them all the time, I'm still glad I have them for when I do desire them..


20Tactarget.jpg


20Tactical_edited-1.jpg


Above are two photos of targets from my last project. It's from a Remington action in Tac20 with not much more special gunsmithing then some good action truing. I use a Hart rest with a Sinclair top, 1 1/4 lb trigger, and these are not terribly hard groups for me to attain at 100 yards using my Elite 6x-24X scope;

Ammoboxwithcocentricitylabels.jpg


Above photo is a look at the inside of one of my ammo boxes. All handloads are placed in the slot according to their concentricity. I use the 5 most accurate rounds first for my serious target work, and the less concentric rounds for bore fouling or more casual target shooting. Like I said; a round sitting in its designated 2,000ths of an inch slot is actually only off by 1,000ths of an inch.

Larry, don't worry, I love you man.



But you can't have my beer.
 
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VaniB,

I'd like to offer an alternative way to look at your test. :)

Presuming that it was accurate and did indeed show an improvement (this would mean repeatable and measurable for a number of aggregates over days/temps...) I'll accept that your straightest rounds may shoot better aggregates BUT..... then the question becomes WHY are those rounds straighter? And then, WHY do they shoot better?

Not necesarily WHY do the straighter rounds shoot better as you contend, but IF they shoot better, why are they straighter? Then we can wonder why/how the straight round could shoot better....

Take your concentricity tools and measure your fired cases fresh out of the gun, before you touch them with a tool. Are they straight? If so, then your fireforming must be adequate. If NOT, then you must make them fireform straight.

I submit that Number One you must MAKE perfect cases by fireforming them perfectly and Number Two you must MAINTAIN this linearity via the use of a fitted die. Not some company's "Competition" die nor a sleeved or line-bored or turbo-charged "Bench Rest Die" but truly a fitted die. A fitted die may be fitted by you from an existing die (any brand, preferably cheap! ;)) or custom-built by a professional die maker like Harrell or Jones or Carstensen but FITTED it must be.

So if the gun is fireforming perfect cases, you must somehow maintain that linearity and it's during this process of development of a system of fireforming and maintenance that the measuring tools are fun, handy, even invaluable... as you said, "But, without the gages how the heck can you know what you're producing?" The answer, you can't! :) But if the gun IS fireforming perfect cases and you know WHY it is, you can now put the tools away. Anyway, let's say that the gun is forming perfect cases, nice and linear.... the way to maintain them and keep them straight is with a fitted die.

Now, if we back up to the top and find that rifle IS NOT making straight cases???? We must ask, why NOT? The chamber can hardly be eccentric, it's most likely cut on a rotating machine using a reamer. It virtually HAS to be straight. So again, we go after the WHY and once we've learned how to FORM perfect cases and to MAINTAIN perfect cases we don't need the measuring equipment (except for fun :) )

I understand caseforming and maintenance such that I can now form cases, fireform them and maintain them and not even have to check them. In my ammo boxes you'll find from 25 to 150 cases which will ALL measure within a half thou on any dimension, they have to. And that given proper instruction Mr Gobble could do the same.

And it is Mr Gobble's money we're spending here. :D

LOL


al
 
Al,

Relying on basic physics 101, I suppose that a bullet that is seated in a straight and concentric case and faces forward into the bore with zero pitch is more prone to enter and ride down the bore toward the target in more of a straight path. (assuming of course our rifle is true and straight) Therfore, I prefer my bullets to seat as perfectly straight in the case as I can get them. And so on that premise....in order to know if my finished round is straight, I need to rely on a gage.

Much of the instances of case distortion or bullet inconcetricity I am referring to is with a new and unfired case. But even after firing the case, and the case has been ironed out to the chamber dimensions, some distortion during minimal resizing can occur. I especially have NEVER owned a seater that plants a bullet perfectly straight every time in the case. And it only takes that one eccentric round out of few rounds to spoil an otherwise tight group.

If you can get the same tight groups as I can.....but, without doing the double checking, sorting, and occassional resizing that I have to do during the handloading process, then you obviously have something or know something that I don't.

I think that until our thread starter Doublegobble hones his skills to the degree that he can arrive at top accuracy in the same easy and fluid manner that now evidently comes natural for you, he would do well to rely on gages like I do that would help him to double check his work. You know, this is not a beginner who I am suggesting go out and buy all kinds of fancy equipment, and that he should be running before he learns how to walk. He did mention that he was already getting ags in the .2's, and that he is no stranger to tight groups at long distance shooting. I think my information and the suggestion that he might invest in finer precision tools such as a concentricity gage would be a valid and serious consideration. Ultimately, he can read and weigh all the input by everyone and draw his own final conclusions.

It's just my opinion, and I am simply telling him what I must to do to get the tight target groups as seen in the photo. A concentricity gage is a must for me.
 
Al,
You wouldn't know that your equipment and procedures are producing good results without a way to "see" those results. After repeated measurement, you have the confidence to stop checking. The way that you learned what worked was by having a way to "see". Gauges are no substitute for good process equipment or procedures. They are a good way to evaluate and validate. If I run across a fellow that is at the point of wanting to improve the quality of his reloads, I loan him my least favorite concentricity gauge, and let him pull his hair out for a week or two, trying to make his equipment produce good results. It is at that point that he will usually listen when I tell him that he needs better dies.
 
VaniB said:
Al,

Relying on basic physics 101, I suppose that a bullet that is seated in a straight and concentric case and faces forward into the bore with zero pitch is more prone to enter and ride down the bore toward the target in more of a straight path. (assuming of course our rifle is true and straight) Therfore, I prefer my bullets to seat as perfectly straight in the case as I can get them. And so on that premise....in order to know if my finished round is straight, I need to rely on a gage.

Much of the instances of case distortion or bullet inconcetricity I am referring to is with a new and unfired case. But even after firing the case, and the case has been ironed out to the chamber dimensions, some distortion during minimal resizing can occur. I especially have NEVER owned a seater that plants a bullet perfectly straight every time in the case. And it only takes that one eccentric round out of few rounds to spoil an otherwise tight group.

If you can get the same tight groups as I can.....but, without doing the double checking, sorting, and occassional resizing that I have to do during the handloading process, then you obviously have something or know something that I don't.

I think that until our thread starter Doublegobble hones his skills to the degree that he can arrive at top accuracy in the same easy and fluid manner that now evidently comes natural for you, he would do well to rely on gages like I do that would help him to double check his work. You know, this is not a beginner who I am suggesting go out and buy all kinds of fancy equipment, and that he should be running before he learns how to walk. He did mention that he was already getting ags in the .2's, and that he is no stranger to tight groups at long distance shooting. I think my information and the suggestion that he might invest in finer precision tools such as a concentricity gage would be a valid and serious consideration. Ultimately, he can read and weigh all the input by everyone and draw his own final conclusions.

It's just my opinion, and I am simply telling him what I must to do to get the tight target groups as seen in the photo. A concentricity gage is a must for me.
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Quite simply, NO. :)

I've missed my point somehow.

What I'm actually saying is different than all this. While I took the "gauging route" in a long and circuitous loop to arrive at accuracy IT WASN'T NEEDED........ If I had listened to others, if I had followed others' guidance, I'd not have had to do all of the learning and measuring.

To go back to your first assertion that a straight round is more accurate than a crooked one in your rifle....you state "Relying on basic physics 101, I suppose that a bullet that is seated in a straight and concentric case and faces forward into the bore with zero pitch is more prone to enter and ride down the bore toward the target in more of a straight path." and this is one of the things I disagree with.

Simply NO......

IMO a bullet will always be cocked or slanted or pitched or show inbore yaw equal to neck clearance. The "straight case" becomes moot as it SLAMS! open to seal the chamber and releases itself completely from the bullet before it's even moved! And the "aligning effect" of having a bullet perfectly centered in the rifling lands becomes moot as the swirling, buffeting gas-hammer builds to exert the 500-600 pounds needed to start the bullet. It takes 600 POUNDS, like a 600lb ape jumping up and down on the base of the bullet....... to get it started into the bore.


It is my belief that FIT is more critical than alignment and that with a proper FIT all alignment problems go away, without need for measuring or confirming. And that furthermore you can "gauge this fit" without any extra tooling using only the rifle, the die and the reloading tools/procedure.

just another way.

Looks like I'm being outvoted though! :) So Senor' Gobble gets some new toys.... :) (I'd like to see him spend his money on something else, like a new barrel)

LOL


al
 
VaniB said:
Larry, I hope you were really kidding, and I haven't hurt your feelings. I was voicing an opposing opinion as respectfully as one could ever try. You have offered me helpful advice in the past when I knew a lot less, and I say it with sincerity that you're one of the last people here who'd I want to offend. :)



VaniB, If you'd hurt my feelings I'd have gotten cranky. I was just yankin' your leg. Mostly if people start being overly nice and deferential, I figure that I've screwed up in a major way, or they're trying to get money or something. Since we're just exchanging opinions it's hard to screw that up too badly, although I've been known to do that, and I'm too cheap to give anyone money. Well, except maybe she who must be obeyed. :eek: :D :D :D
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Doublegobble

Hey Gobbler its killahog from longranghunting.com. It seems as though giving you the link to this website to help you with your reloading has ended up teaching me a thing or 2. Good luck, and kept reading in a few years you might have the knowlage to help someone else.
 
Al

This may seem like a dum question ,but what is the correct procedure for getting a fitted die. I realize I would need fired cases to send to the die man, but what other info will he need?

This has been an enlightening thread to say the least, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks Les
 
LesWard said:
This may seem like a dum question ,but what is the correct procedure for getting a fitted die. I realize I would need fired cases to send to the die man, but what other info will he need?

This has been an enlightening thread to say the least, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks Les
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Dumb question.....

There is only ONE dumb question.......

The one you don't ask! :)

Getting brass ready for the die man is an important item IMO. I think that the brass you send off should be fired 3-5 times WITHOUT SIZING so that it's a tight fit in the rifle's chamber;

-You can neck-size only if you have the capability.

-It would SEEM that you could set your resizing die about a quarter-inch high so that it just sizes the end of the neck BUT.... this doesn't work because before you're sizing the neck you're squeezing on the shoulder and disrupting your fit. Don't bother trying it.

-Soooooo, if you can't neck-size only then you just load the bullet into the neck by hand and CAREFULLY insert it with the rifle pointed skyward if need be, and lay it down and fire it. You don't need neck tension except to hold the bullet in place. Unless you've got a very long chamber you should be able to do this quite easily as the rifling lands will hold the bullet in place once you've got the round chambered. With a decent chamber and up to .002 of neck clearance this is all automatic as the round will stay in on its own but for sloppy factory type necks with .005-.007 radial clearance you must improvise. (Note that if you've got over .003 or maybe .004 of neck clearance you will never get "straight reloads" but you can still find a gain in accuracy because of FIT, your vibrational patterns will smooth out....)

Fire five rounds until they're tight. Remember to GREASE YOUR LUGS and fire them until you have to thumb the bolt closed, you can feel the resistance.

send these off to Neil Jones for a good die.

Now here's the kicker, finding a good fitted and hardened die these days SUCKS!

-Harrell's only does BR/PPC/X47L cases

-Carstensen needs your reamer.

-I can't find a gunsmith who'll make random sized dies any more even if I supply the reamer! Getting a good heat-treat has become problematic.

-There ARE still guys who'll "cut you a bump die with your chambering reamer" or even "make you a sizer from your roughing reamer, you don't need it hardened" ......... but please, if you've got your reamer just have Carstensen do it.

So you've got Neil Jones (AWESOME dies) and you've got Hornady Custom Shop (which I've never used but I hear good things) and then you've got guys who want to charge $600-900.00 for a die (Duhhh! like THAT's ever gonna' happen!)

Or you get your die first and order the reamer off of it. Problem here is, you'll get a TOO SMALL chamber IMO....... but that's just me. :D

So it's a problem.

IMO the answer is Neil Jones at this point, send the man some tight brass.

al
 
Wow!!

Thanks Al,
I sure appreciate that information. And I wil give that a shot. No Pun Intended.

I shoot an old 6X250 (30+yrs) and seem to have reached a plateu & without
going to the next level I will not improve.

Many Mahalo's

Les
 
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