What is this???

vicvanb said:
And you claim I used faulty reasoning.

Without checking headspace, no one (including you) can state that the rifle has no problem.

Bumping the shoulder back 0.003 (not revealed in the first post I replied to) likely contributed to case head separations but no one can conclude this was the sole cause absent a headspace check.

You imply excessive headspace is no problem. Very bad advice possibly resulting in injury to the rifle's next owner who may be unaware.

And $100 to check headspace? It's a 2 minute chore to run the gauge in the chamber. Those I know would do it for no charge.
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vic, you and I think very differently....... I come from a background of DOING, actually building and testing stuff. And a background of actually making change, not making myself feel good.

#1, I'll say it again, excessive headspace IS NOT DANGEROUS! You've again wandered off into "Very bad advice possibly resulting in injury to the rifle's next owner who may be unaware." Please explain to all of us HOW excess headspace is dangerous! Just list one bad thing that could happen from excessive headspace. Really, just explain in simple language to those of us here WHY it's dan'rous and how.....

#2, regarding my cost of 100.00, here's where we REALLY part ways. First of all, I would do it for no charge..... that's simply not the issue. I TOLD you, I understand efficiency, "cost" of an item or service has little or nothing to do with "what someone charges." You think that "free" is really free! You are the sort of person who believes that "hydrogen fuel cells are the answer" and "EV's are zero emission vehicles." And that if the gunsmith over in Spartansburg charges $10.00 to check headspace then THAT'S THE COST........You will not, will never, probably CANNOT assess true cost of anything. If dude lissens to you and somehow you convince him he needs to get his head checked then the money clock starts....... first he must take the time off from his life to locate the gunsmith, then he must drive to same, then he ties two people up for at least 1/2hr.etc etc etc. all for NOTHING!

I completely understand that you totally disagree with me :)

I'm used to it.

I DON'T SEE THE WORLD THE WAY YOU DO!

But in MY world (the one I'm leaving to my kids and grandkids) it costs 100.00 against my environmental tab to get headspace checked.

I'll save that money when I can.

al
 
OK, now I must clarify something...... in my bakkenforth wit' vic some may get the impression that I'm pooh pooohing the danger of casehead separation......

I'M NOT!!!

Do a search for 'alinwa casehead separation' and I jus' betcha' you'll turn up a few of my rants.... It Is My Considered Opinion that casehead separations are like flat tires. 99.9% of the time a flat tire is completely anti-climactic and not in any way harmful BUT.....

BUT!!!

Sometimes it's BAD, sometimes the blown out tire throws chunks into bystanders, bends vehicle body and suspension parts or even sends the vehicle careering acros't 3 lanes of traffic and people DIE.....and sometimes casehead separations are BAD.

Unbeknownst to most casual observers rifle actions are purposely designed with this in mind. An informed search will turn up articles, books and discussions re how the various actions handle excess gas. This excess gas can be caused by a variety of things..... improper case architecture, moisture in chamber, too-high pressure, too low pressure, improper powder/bullet mix and old cases to name a few. And actions are designed with vents, vents whose sole purpose is to keep the bad stuff from searing your precious ocular equipment. One of the worst "vent tests" I've ever seen was the result of someone-who-shall-remain-nameless-but-who-always-wears-his-safety-glasses who built .308 cases from 30-06 brass in the interest of getting closer neck tolerance in a factory chamber.....suffice it to say, "the vents worked."

As did the safety glasses.

Meantime, let's all remain ignorant of just HOW these vents work eh :) Let's keep it in the realm of "this is what they WOULD do if we ever had a problem..."

DarkWorld SUUCKSSS!!!

And casehead separations are easily avoided, PREVENTED, by proper use of tools and technique.

Nor can casehead separation occur only from a headspace problem. Have no fear, guns are safer than driving to church Sunday morning..... until we start to MESS with them. Like improperly setting our reloading dies.

IMO the guy who started the idea of "setting the die to touch the shellholder" should be sorry....should retract his idea.

Just ONE of a dozen "truths" that just need to go off and DIE.

ooops


al
 
It has been proven that headspace that is so excessive that firing pin protrusion had to be altered to get the cases to fire caused no damage to the rifle or shooter (Bob Greenleaf in PS). However, if cases fired with that excessive headspace are sized back to their original size the next firing will lead to head separations. Old military rifles like the SMLE, Krag, Moisin Nagant, and others all had chambers cut "generously" so that any old crappy, muddy ammo would chamber. No problems at all until people FL size the cases to near original size and fire them again. The heads fall off the cases. I've seen it happen. Nothing evil happened except that getting the front part of the case from the chamber was less than fun.

Cases need to be resized the minimum amount that will allow chambering. More is excessive. Most anything in excess is bad.
 
Larry Elliott said:
It has been proven that headspace that is so excessive that firing pin protrusion had to be altered to get the cases to fire caused no damage to the rifle or shooter (Bob Greenleaf in PS). However, if cases fired with that excessive headspace are sized back to their original size the next firing will lead to head separations. Old military rifles like the SMLE, Krag, Moisin Nagant, and others all had chambers cut "generously" so that any old crappy, muddy ammo would chamber. No problems at all until people FL size the cases to near original size and fire them again. The heads fall off the cases. I've seen it happen. Nothing evil happened except that getting the front part of the case from the chamber was less than fun.

Cases need to be resized the minimum amount that will allow chambering. More is excessive. Most anything in excess is bad.
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Spot ON...

This is all so funny.... over on the other board there's a guy irate because he's got some loaded rounds from one of the non-mainline mfgrs (Hornady maybe??) That WON'T CHAMBER!!! ....."WHAT kinda' NONSENSE is THIS??" he wonders!! And then somebody finally MEASURES the rounds and finds them to be "seven thousandths oversized." Ohhh Frabjous DAY! HOOraww HooRAYY!! Wheee! and Waughhhh and "TERRibleness!!" "We've FOUND the problem, but NOW what???" And "HOW could this HAPPEN??" And folks fuss and sputter, nattering about danger and skyfall and culpabilities.........

Meantime, kids got bugs crawling in and out their faces in other parts of the world........

This has gone on for all the fortysome yrs I've been shooting.... things aren't perfect and guys will grunt and opine that he should "send the gun in" or "send the rounds back" or "get the headspace checked" or "sue SOMEbuddy before SOMEbuddy gets hurt!!"

'GO' to 'NO-GO' has traditionally been three thou with the 'Field Gage' being a couple thou over that for a total of .005...... And yet anyone who's ever actually MEASURED stuff will find that brass varies (has always varied ;) ) as much as 10thou to datum through the yrs........ with belted magnum cases sometimes being 10 or even 15thou short.....and that rounds like the 30-06 you can reset the headspace (actually head clearance) by 2-3 thou JUST BY CYCLING A ROUND! Shoot, I've seen it where gun won't close, tap it a few times and down she goes.... And I've found dozens of factory combinations with 6-10thou of clearance.....


The cases in the op were busted BECAUSE THEY'D BEEN RELOADED WRONG!!! Actually a very common mishap .....And the dude came on here to find out WHY..... And HE FOUND OUT WHY! And that with effort it can all be avoided. And the absolute answers, methods and means can be found right here, for FREE.


Let me say again..... for those of you'se too tired to find out WHY, just stick with factory ammo and factory guns and YOU'LL BE FINE :) If y'all DO reload you'll just cost the world money "sending it back" and "getting it checked out by exspurts" instead of taking the time and doing the work to figger it out.... and for all those millions of guns out there with "excessive headspace" this factory ammo will be PERFECTLY SAFE.

Ohhh, so sorry to you'se chilly folks.

And thanks for all the help you've offered the guy with the busted cases, you're a real credit to the shooting community :) a liddle misinformation coupled with NO information always looks good....

al
 
I think Al is right.

I shoot and reload for sporters, and I partial full-length size my brass. What I have found is that if I run a fired case into the sizing die and stop when the shell holder is shy of touching the die by about half the thickness of a dime, and then chamber the case, it will offer greater resistance to bolt closure---beyond what is desirable. Because the diameter of the case body is being squeezed down the shoulder will move forward. It probably is much more pronounced when cases have greater taper, e.g. the .220 Swift.

I use this as a technique for adjusting my sizing die. I have calculated that only 5 degrees of lock-ring adjustment (about the same as the movement of the second hand in one tick) will effect shoulder set-back by about 0.001 inch, so adjustment must be made with great patience. I rely on feel; when I can feel the resistance of the bolt closure just beginning to decrease, I know I am in contact with the shoulder and that's where I stop.

It must be recognized that partial full-length sizing does not prevent case stretching and the eventual necessity of case trimming, but with proper die adjustment the technique will help extend case life.

I'd like to offer a guess as to why the OP's case separation occurred so far from the case head, where we usually expect to see it: low-pressure loads. The stretch during firing will occur closer to the case head when pressures are near maximum because the case is adhering to the chamber walls for most of its length during peak pressure time. If the peak pressure is lower, the case is adhering to the chamber walls only in the forward portion leaving the rear half of the case to slide in the chamber and stretch the case. Assuming my theory is correct, the separation IS due to improperly sized brass and the unusual location of the failure is due to the lower pressure.

That's just my two cents.
 
I've got to say that there are two ways to size a case, either FL or Neck. If the cases will rechamber after firing they can be NS with no problems at all. Some rifles give better accuracy with FL sized cases, both custom and factory, I've proven that to my own satisfaction. I tried "partial sizing" with absolutely no success, by the time cases could be rechambered without using a cheater bar on the bolt handle they were effectively FL sized. Buy a set of gauges to check shoulder setback on FL sizing, push the shoulder back 0.001 or 0.002 inch, and there'll be no shortening of case life. Shoving the shoulder back more than that for a bolt action rifle will shorten case life. If a person chooses not to FL size then buy an NS die, that's what they're made for. They don't cost that much, and adjusting die settings every so often is more aggravation than I can stand.
 
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