What caliber for 600/1000 yard benchrest?

alinwa said:
6X47 Lapua

Does everything the DAsher does, mo/better/faster.

al
Click to expand...

Here are the top guns for the NBRSA 600 yd nationals,

1st Place
LG 6.5 x 47 , HG 6.5 x 47
2nd Place
LG 6Dasher, HG 6Dasher
3rd Place
LG 6 Dasher, HG 6 Dasher
4th Place
LG 6BRX , HG 6BRX
5th Place
LG 6BR, HG 6XC
6th Place
No Data
7th Place
LG 6BR, HG 6BR
8th Place
LG 8th Place, HG 8th Place
9th Place
LG 6 Grendel, HG 6 Grendel
10th Place
LG 6 Dasher, HG 300 Ackley

Looking at the results the 6 BR and variants were king of the hill that weekend and the 6X47 somehow did not show up in the winners circle. In all fairness there are a few shooters shooting the 6X47 with very good success and I shoot the 6 Grendel. If you pick a 6BR or variant for your first long range cartridge there is a whole industry of shooters that are shooting the 6 BR and variant that can offer all the help you need to get the 6BR tuned and shooting great and competitive.

Al how is "mo/better/faster" relate to long range Benchrest? I thought this was a game of accuracy and what is on the target that counts. I did not happen to see you at the NBRSA 600 yd nationals were you there? My appoligies if I happened to not remember seeing you shooting there. How many long Range registered matches have you shot in? Agian I apoligize if I have happened to miss you at the matches and I may be getting older and my memory going bad but I also don't remember seeing you in any of matches or match reports. Please Al if "mo/better/faster" is true show us some match reports and where you have won in a registered match shooting the 6X47. This is not about shooting in the backyard but shooting in the competitive arena with rules and regulations, targets measured and verified by a target crew and as the original poster had inquired about 600 and 1000 yard shooting.
 
6X47L is easy and repeatable. As has been stated it's unproven as of yet and because guys don't know how to spec it out it's getting the same rep the 6BR had for many years..... "less accurate." When I started posting on THIS BOARD the 6BR was a 'Joke Cartridge'..... the idea that it could reach even 600yds competitively was a joke. I won't go into the history but suffice it to say, I was there. I hit 2900fps in 1995, repeatably, with great brass life, shooting slip-fit necks. My first ever post on this board was "Do bullets Obturate In The Neck?" because I'd been shooting scuff-fit necks (In my back yard of course..... meaningless and all that :rolleyes: )

And this means nothing to you unless you were actively competing then.

The key with the 6X47L is the exact same thing as it is with the others, crush-fit foreforming.

I shoot 105-108's at 3150 comfortably using the 6X47L.

For those who think "mo/better/faster" is of no import then shoot something slower and be happy. Larry Kahle does just fine shooting 105's at 2750 out of a .243 short. I dunno' if he'd make it to a thou though......

"JMC" I don't post match reports to prove a point. Drive up to Portland the 26th and I'll show you personally how well the 6X47L shoots. I'll even sidebet you. I'll be shooting the same old converted PPC rifle in both Light and Heavy because I don't have a proper one built yet and would love to compare standings .....you can shoot anything you want including a big thirty........ We'll keep it simple, just position in the standings......Howsabout $50.00/position for everything from Small Group to Grand Agg?? You should be able to easily cover your fuel to get here and back, with meals...... Come on up, it's a free trip for you! I'd go a hunnerd bucks a pop but I'm a construction guy and a liddle short right now, so's I'm playing it safe with 50.00/ea. wouldn't want you to make a profit!

Schucks.... going against a backyard bumpkin you should be game to give me odds! :D

'Course this is only 600yds so the mo/better/faster part won't help but I shoot the same load for both....

You'll get to shoot against some good shooters, not just me so's you can have a good time. Gary Noble and Billy Copelin should be here, and Kurt Mendenhall and Bruce Bangemann and Larry Kahle and Everett Smith and ????...... Mark Van Beek will be usiing his record-setting 6BR and selling me his 6.5X47L brass......

The shoot's in northern OR, it's only one state away....

I'll bring a stack of 50.00 bills


al
 
Rflshootr said:
Al,
I'm assuming 4350........what is the charge weight and primer you're using?
What is your barrel length?
Click to expand...

yup. ----RL-17 works fine too

40.04gr +- .02 (1 kernel) H4350

Win or Fed primer although I wouldn't be afraid of Rem 71/2's, I shot a bunch fireforming

27" and 28" krieger

al
 
This is encouraging, I should be getting my 10-7.5 Bartlein in the next couple weeks..... specifically for the 115's which I've NEVER been able to get to shoot.

Light Gun, .600 BC........ at over 3000fps..... RHoOOOOWWAUGHHhHHHH!!! Eat thirty's and spit out 6.5's......

IF they'll shoot.

al
 
Ohhh, and BTW yes, I've had to neck up and false shoulder 4 of my 6BR barrels, because the gunsmith's REFUSE or are unable to get them right. I've been ordering my HS gages .003 under for ten years..... just don't tell 'em!

Or find a 'smith who'll lissen instead of doing it his way.


BTW Lynn says the new brass is soft..... you gotta' neck 'em way up, jam 'em hard.

I'm resetting the shoulders AND the neck on my 6X47L, they just STOP for fireforming. In fact if you wait a day they might not even go in, you'll have to reset the shoulders.

And the stepped neck bushing???? friggin' MAGIC!!

al
 
Bruce
The only thing Bill "The Surfer Dude" Hubina put on his equipment list was 6mm.I am in the process of comint out with a new form that says cartridge instead of caliber as alot of shooters take things literaly.I am also going to add gunsmith to the form and put a space in between Action and stock so a guy can actually put them both down without having to write in empty space.
I will go back an use the edit button as I want that post to be as accurate as possible.If anyone could get themselves/me in touch with Curt I would like to get his equipment list.I hate sending something into print like a national event with a big empty slot.
I think Barry Bluhm (6BRXLefty) had alot of success with his 6x47 as well.

To the original poster there are three main things you need to compete at 600/1,000 yards.
I will put them in alphabetical order
Accuracy.
Accuracy.
Accuracy.
The reason the 6BR 6 Dasher 6 Grendel 6x47 are doing so well is that the shooter using the particular cartridge of choice has a good shooting rifle.All of these cartridges shoot well and the guy winning is usually the guy who made the least mistakes.
I finished 10th overall and my weakest link was my lightgun in 6 Dasher.It wasn't the guns fault it was my not being able to get off work when it wasn't raining and believe me it rained alot out here this year.I didn't get my seating depth dialed in and it cost me a top 5 ranking.
My father shot a 6 Dasher to 13th place but had one shot add a full inch to his aggregate.
John Crawford finished 9th overall with his Grendel and had one group keep him from finishing much higher.
In short any of these cartridges can win its just a matter of not screwing up.
Ken Schroeder is 81 years old and has been shooting a pair of standard 6BR's for more than 10 years now.He is always in the Top 10 list.

Squeakie
Forming 6 Dasher brass can be done a bunch of different ways and they are all easy.You can even buy 308 Lapua Palma Brass now and set the shoulder exactly were you want it so there are no more excuses for anything.

Alinwa
I think the point John was trying to get across was that velocity and high bc bullets don't win matches accuracy does.Lou Murdica's wife Connie has a 6BR that flat out shoots.Lou called his friend Eric Stanton on the phone and told him to get down here.Eric asked him what to bring and Lou said your earmuffs.He ended up winning in Sacramento one trip and Reno one trip with a borrowed gun at National events not club matches and Reno doesn't have wind it has Zephyrs.
If it was all about high velocity and high bc the 6x284 and 6mm-06's sitting in my closet would be at every match.A great group out on the back 40 is nice but you need 30 great shots to win lightgun and 60 to win heavygun and you can't ignore that one flyer that adds a inch to your aggregate.I have even tried multiple guns in each class at the nationals and would choose the gun based on the relay shot in and the amount of wind in that relay.It was a colossal mistake.

John
Me thinks we had better drive on up to Portland !!!!!!! Its about 500 miles for me each way so figure 1200+ miles for yourself.I think Alinwa is afraid of Sacramento so we had better take the game to him.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
falconpilot said:
Fireforming Dasher cases is no big deal. Size up the neck with a .257 mandel, then resize aboiut 1/2 neck back down to 6mm to give a crush fit when closing bolt, seat bullet, and shoot. Firefroming rounds have always proved to be just avbout as accurate as formed rounds.

Again, the Dasher holds are the records. You can't argue success...I'm not sure about your barrel life. The Dasher will give you a competetive 2200-2500 rounds...I know..I've shoot out almost 3 barrrels now....I would think that the 6/250 is quite a barrel burner, like the .243...
Click to expand...

so far it's OK (throat life) after about 600+ rounds. The round's not perfect, and for what I use it for, it does a fine job. I've been looking at two home brew case designs now for several months. Both use a 40 degree shoulder and a generic 6mm Remington style neck. One is about .125 shorter than the .243 at the shoulder, and can be formed out of .243 brass or 6mm brass. The other is similar, but is formed from 6/.284 brass. Still my line drawings put the vortex of the flame inside the .250AI case neck, but I'm uncomfortable with it. Still I think a longer neck will solve most of the lingering thoughts in the back of my head.
Thanks for your reply
gary
 
Al,
The question was about “What caliber is currently yielding the best accuracy and winning the most matches at 600 and 1000 yards today? What caliber do you recommend a person to shoot in 600/1000 yard competition?” from a shooter who sounded like he did not have a lot of experience. The 6BR and variants were and are a proven cartridge and probably the best choice for one to start out with. Any benchrest game is about accuracy and more accuracy and hard work. Once he gets his feet wet and shoots awhile and gains experience then he may want to venture out and try other cartridges but in the meantime while he is learning he has a tremendous supporting cast of shooters to help with his learning curve and get him up to speed. The 6BR and variants are a very winning cartridge overall.

When you post you come here with very strong opinions and absolutes on shooting, my question to you was very simple and you choose to evade the answer and go with a tirade of a post instead. You threw out coming to Oregon, betting on the match, how you don’t want to brag about your success, a lot of shooters named all the while you are evaded answering a simple question, I have been to the nationals and shot against most of the shooters you named and shot better than some and not as good as others and made my mistakes along the way, have placed very high but small mistakes where costly and hurt my position in the grand. My question to you was simple and is still there and unanswered “How many registered matches have you shot in?” It was not about putting up side line bets and who’s coming to shoot in Oregon a very simple question you choose to evade, Why?

There has been some success with the 6X47 by a few people and Bruce yields his rifle very well and has placed very high in some matches and done very well at the nationals and has beaten me as well. There are other shooters who also have done very well with the 6X47 overall and it may be a great cartridge but also may not be the best for a new shooter to long range shooting the learning curve is tough enough with out venturing into a new area with a cartridge that few are shooting. And come to think of it maybe Lynn is right we need to come up there and shoot.
 
John,

The 6BR is a monstrous fine round.....although 15yrs ago it was in exactly the same place as the 6X47L is today, NEW and unproven for long range work. A small and vocal few touted it's merits based on experience with a wide variety of rounds and look at it today. :)

And they got beat up a whole lot worse than this for supporting a silly little round.

AT THAT TIME the common answer was "6X284" and "308 Baer" and "300 Win Mag" and the real humdinger for LG was the .243AI. Well, I went through five .243AI reamers and 7 barrels on 4 guns to find it unsatisfactory. I started fiddling with the 6BR and found happiness. 10yrs ago I was yelling a lot louder than this....... for the 6BR!

But it's a little anemic for 1000yds, always has been.

So people started blowing it out and up. The bugs were finally getting worked out by the time the "Dasher" came along..... (I'm kinda' bugged by this term because the DAsher is a 22 round and a wonderfully innovative one......specifically designed to easily utilize the techniques I espouse for making good cases) but anyway, the "Dasher"...............

The Dasher is a good round. But it's a complete PITA to make good cases for. Making essentially THE SAME CASE by starting with the 6.5X47L case is dead easy.... it's already necked up, it's a little longer and it's so bloody identical that you can chamber it with a 6BR reamer if you want. It could even be called a "6BR variant" only it's much easier to deal with. Too long??? Trim it back....

You need the brass

You need a FL die

And you can now neck to crush for fireform.

"BOOM"

:)

You want REALLY good brass??? Get'cherself a stepped neck bushing.

"BOOM"

:)

So why pick on it?

It's the CONCEPT that's sound! Of course it doesn't have a huge string of wins, it CAN'T.....yet..... Neither does the 30X47L but so what? It CAN'T NOT work. But if it's your opinion that the 6BR is a better choice, then so be it. It's America after all.... BTW I've got my order in with all the vendors for the new 308 brass too..... do I need it to be "proven??" Do I need to hear about it from a "good shooter??"

Nope. It has to work. And it will. And it's supposed to be in this week..... again. :)

I didn't "evade the answer"..... I made what I figured was a perfectly fair proposition in reply to your aspersions, come on up and shoot against this backyard shooter (your term) and his homemade 6X47L and get your gas paid for. I withdraw my offensive offer and offer you an apology instead. I reacted poorly. And if this is a "tirade" then I'll also be careful not to step in any more of your posts. And I didn't "name a lot of shooters" I named some of the few who regularly shoot up here and will probably be at this match.

To answer the question that seems to be on your mind, I've shot the 5-6 NBRSA 600yd matches that have been held here in Portland. "Brag about my success???" I don't know where you came up with this! :rolleyes: Ohhh, and no need to "apoligize (twice) for missing me"....... I wasn't there as you very well know, and if I had been you definitely wouldn't have missed me.

I'm glad you're shooting well.



And of course I'd love it if you guys came up..... what I DON'T love is guys who squeal and yell about others not coming to them. I've got kids, bunches of them, the shortest one isn't yet two years old......


I'll be there when I can.

al
 
Alinwa
I don't want to enter this post late and get accused of jumping on your case but your explanation of the 6br isn't exactly kosher.
The 6BR started life as a shortrange cartridge made from Remington URBR brass as just another answer to the 6PPC.It was not intended as a 600 yard round because there was no 600 yard matches then and that is why it took a bunch of years to catch on.Kind of hard to win 600 yard matches 20 years before any were ever held.The shortrange guys took it on there varmint hunts and slowly but surely they started using heavier and heavier bullets and faster twists and the rest is history as they say.
The 6x47L is a simple neck job and its based on a purpose built case made specificaly to challenge the success of the 6BR and not to defeat the 6ppc in shortrange benchrest.Its been out long enough it just hasn't gained the following because some shoot and some don't shoot.Don Nielson shot one and went back to the parent case as did countless others.Down the road it may have some kind of following but in my opinion it won't be anything like the 6BR.

I read alot about your brass but I don't see anything that stands out or catches my eye as new or innovative except for your swelled/bulged case bodies and so far thats not catching on or changing the face of Benchrest.Maybe when we finaly start to read alot about your targets things will begin to change.
The DAsher is a 22 round and a wonderfully innovative one......specifically designed to easily utilize the techniques I espouse for making good cases)
Waterboy
 
I didnt know the dasher was originally a 22. Thats very interesting! I wonder how it would feed from a rem 700 short action magazine?? Sounds like a great coyote round! I love chasing them coyotes when its to cold to shoot of a bench. LOL!!! Actually it sounds like a very expensive coyote round, but still pretty cool! Do any serious 600 yard shooters shoot the 22 dasher? I dont think i have seen much on that topic. I suppose the 90gr vld Berger bullets would get the call? Again, very interesting! Thanks Lee
 
skeetlee said:
I didnt know the dasher was originally a 22. Thats very interesting! I wonder how it would feed from a rem 700 short action magazine?? Sounds like a great coyote round! I love chasing them coyotes when its to cold to shoot of a bench. LOL!!! Actually it sounds like a very expensive coyote round, but still pretty cool! Do any serious 600 yard shooters shoot the 22 dasher? I dont think i have seen much on that topic. I suppose the 90gr vld Berger bullets would get the call? Again, very interesting! Thanks Lee
Click to expand...


Yo Skeeter.....

Why expensive? It's cheaper than the 22-250, is that expensive?


No chambering built around Lapua brass and proper dies is "expensive"...... SO WHAT if the brass cost you more??? I've got Lapua cases that have been fired 80 times at high pressure, fired until the flashholes get all weird!

And they still hold a bullet and shoot fine.

The original 22 DAsher is the brainstorm of Dan Dowling and Al Ashton, dudes knew about making brass. Making the DAsher solves a bunch of problems alla'sametime..... Unlike the later "6 Dasher" it's ALREADY necked up! You just chamber it where you want it, set your 22 DAsher FL die down-down-down until you can cram the bolt closed and VOILAAHHHH!!! Perfect cases. An absolute no-frills wildcat that WORKS.

Stuff like this jus' makes me smile :) :) :) I love K.I.S.S. genius..... And I salute D and A for pure-dee genius.


Ohhhh, and BTW, contrary to the assertions of the genii above, I don't consider MYSELF to be innovative in any way. I didn't invent anything nor develop anything nor innovate nor PROVE anything ever............. but I lissen well, and I have the capacity to learn from others :) And I strive to learn the 'why' of things VS quoting guys who've "won some wood." Tiger Woods is a great golfer.... does this mean I beat him up over club designs???

And statements like "XXX just doesn't shoot" drive me around the bend. There's a REASON "XXX doesn't shoot!"

DIG??

Jim Stekl worked with Mike Walker and others to develop the 6BR just because he hated the thought of a commie cartridge winning the world....... his personal rifle has a Calvin "piss on the PPC" sticker on the stock and he gets down right belligerent about it all (or used to)..... but the 6BR never took over for the PPC. WHY NOT??? Well, there are several reasons, but no real gunsmith will argue the fact that once you address these issues a rifle built on 6BR brass will shoot just fine, hang right with the PPC...... but the PPC passed it up. While folks gobbled and struggled with the 6BR the PPC quietly passed it up. A shortened 6BR, properly formed will shoot just fine, but there's an entire industry built around the PPC. A properly made shot 22 will hang with a PPC....... PROPERLY made..... ooooohhhhh, but they sure haven't won much wood!!! Maybe when they get more wood they'll "take over the PPC..."

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here's a pic of some Lapua brass, these have been fired 33 times in this pic at humungous pressure. They're now over 50 firings and still look like this, never been trimmed.



BG



Lapua brass

proper fireform

proper resizing/maintenance

Rock On!! :D

or don't

al
 
Hmmm, I'm out of my depth here...

"Type Status report?"

I'll try to move the pix to another site and see if that works.

al
 
Sorry guys, I'm just trying stuff.

280tld2.jpg


This is frustrating, these came up as pictures yesterday

???

al
 
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