What am I missing?

T

Tod Soeby

New member
Just got my new dasher back from my smith....rem 700, 30" 1-8 twist. I am keeping the factory stock on it for now. The gun began life as a VS 220 swift with the HS Precision varmint stock with the bedding block. We bedded over the block for a better fit. He also put on a better recoil lug and sent the bolt away for some work. Not a true bench gun, but a SA twin to my Spencer built 300 wby .330 neck which shoots incredibly well for a "sporter"

I read about you guys out there who actually shoot matches while fire forming. Really???? My groups don't look like groups....more like SHOTGUN PATTERNS!:eek: 2-3 inch groups. I am using 28.5 gr of RL 15 and loading to jam with Berger 105's. CCI primers, Lapua brass. The cases are coming out with sharp crisp shoulders. The first thing I tried was a different scope. Same thing. While I had the scope off I checked the bases and they were tight. So are the action screws. Weather was perfect...30 degrees , no wind, and no mirage! Oh, I am also breaking in the BBL using the fouler-5 shot group-clean method. There are about 50 rounds through it now and cleanup is getting very easy now.

My smith is hunting in TX for another week, so I can't talk to him, and I want to try something this weekend. He has built many dashers, some of which have taken home some "wood", so he knows his stuff!

ANY ADVICE????

"HELP ME....I'VE FALLEN.....AND I CAN'T GET UP!!!" :cool::eek::rolleyes:
 
First of all, are you fireforming by just jamming the bullets deep or are you making a false shoulder?


Fireforming without a false shoulder will make your groups into shotgun blasts AND the brass is forevermore ruined, you can't fix it.


al
 
Al,


Are you stating fact....or your opinion. I have never done the wildcat thing. I do know that the topic of "just jam" vs "false shoulder" methods of FF brass is as volatile as the "non Molly" vs "molly"....or the "LR" vs "SR" game shooting. I was going to use the "pistol powder & grits" method, but I couldn't get the brass necked up right. I know that the subject of the correct fireform process has been debated both here and at the 6 BR site. I thought that EVERYBODY was right. Ya, I know....I'M EASY!!:D

My smith does the false shoulder thing.....All I have is a .264 mag die.....I tried running just the expander into the neck....but lost all of the brass I tried. My "GO TO GUY" uses the "just jam" method, and has a half dozen dashers, some of which have "won wood". He is also gone through easter, so I can't talk to him either. All I have now is you guys......my extended family.:D:D.

I have access to a .257 wby die....Should I try that (instead of the .264)?? It should be a lot easier on the brass I would think. I have 50 more rounds loaded....27.5 Varget....I could pull the bullets and powder and try that.
 
Al,

Why is the brass forevermore ruined? Couldn't one FL size, maybe anneal, and do the false shoulder thing before firing a second time? [Or, if the brass doesn't know, why tell it?] Just curious.
 
Ok, the bullet-jamming method is flawed two ways:


#1- the bullet DOES NOT stay in place in the neck when the firing pin hits it. I've tried every method known from running full thickness necks with .008 if squish to degreasing and JB Welding the bullets into the neck. I've made brass from longer parent cases so that shoulder brass became very thick neck brass. IME you will NOT get a bullet to hold in place using conventional methods.


#2- Even if you DID get the bullet to stick in the neck..........does this mean that you'll hold the case back tight to the boltface?

NOPE!

That 105 will slip into the lands as much as .120 from touching to deep jam. So let's say you set your jam to "tight"...... now go and depress your firing pin with your hand. Is it jammed THAT TIGHT? Now back of and SMACK it.... Is it THAT tight?




Is this FACT? Well here are two easy ways to test this at home;


--------- Set the loaded round on the counter and drop a 25lb rock on the tip of the bullet.... from 1ft in the air.


---------- OR, just seat a round as you normally do but this time leave the powder out and use a dead primer (you actually should kill a primer to make the test accurate but even a FIRED primer will show you what you need to know)
. . . Measure it for OAL
. . . Pull the trigger
. . . Measure it again
. . . See?



I KNOW, I KNOW everybody and their mother's brother wants to argue wit' it.............. next thing somebody will be telling you to grease your cases....... and there's always the old "but so-and-so has been building match-winning guns" or "So-and-so has won matches with brass made this way".


I can't fight that.


GO TRY IT!!!


Now make some GOOD cases by using a JAM-fit on a false shoulder and shoot them head-to-head with your 50cases already in hand. You've got a Golden Opportunity here, USE IT :):):) please.


New, perfect cases VS old, nappy piss-poor fireformed cases :)


checki'dout


BTW you absolutely need to false-shoulder using grits to FF.



al


BTW Dawg, the reason the brass is ruined is because it WILL still fireform when it slides, it'll just fireform stupid and crooked. I used to have this ARGUMENT with the late Skip Otto right here on this board. Several times The Skipper ALSO posted about truing caseheads and how best to do it.

;)


He never DID make the connection to the best of my knowledge :)



No you absolutely cannot fix it. The case web area is permanently deformed and work-hardened.
 
"The case web area is permanently deformed and work-hardened." Well, I don't want to believe this. But I can't disprove it. So I suppose I should call you names instead. Only a few names, though, because I've used a lot of falsies in shoulders and have no quarrel with your falsies statements.
 
Al,

Point taken......But you didn't answer my last question.....Will I have an easier time with a 257 wby die (as compared to a .264 die)......I don't want to ruin any more brass than I already have, and spend time pulling bullets ect.....

Thanks,
TOD
 
Tod Soeby said:
Al,

Point taken......But you didn't answer my last question.....Will I have an easier time with a 257 wby die (as compared to a .264 die)......I don't want to ruin any more brass than I already have, and spend time pulling bullets ect.....

Thanks,
TOD
Click to expand...

Todd,
I think you may need a different tool to properly open the necks. There are tools made specifically for opening case mouths. They have a long taper unlike expanding balls that are commonly found in dies. Al has given you some very good advice. IMO you can not properly fireform your Dasher without a false shoulder. Get yourself the correct tools and it will be quite simple.
 
I shoot a 6BRX, I fireform mine using the jam method, havent lost a case, best group at 100 has been .107 (fireforming) but I use more of the same powder, same bullets, and my nappy piss poor cases seem to be lasting forever,while shooting very sub MOA at whatever distance they're fired from. :confused:

I've Jam Method formed 17 M4, 22PPC, 6PPc, 243Ack with pretty much the same result....my guess is the primer has already done what its supposed to do by the time the alleged disturbance from the firing pin occurs and the case is on its way to taking up the volume its supposed to?

I am going to get some cases spinning tomorrow to check the runout in the case heads just in case...
 
I agree with Al, kind of.

Friends that have done the false shoulder with a .257 cal. expander have had great success. But... I fireformed 200 22 Dashers in a fireform barrel in short order without doing the false shoulder. I told the gun owner to neck the 6BR down to 22 but ONLY to the point that they were snug in the chamber. He took them all the way back to the shoulder using a 22 BR die. And he loaded them with powder and bullet.
My method was to remove the bolt stop from a 700 bolt, pull the bolt, insert loaded round under Rem extractor, insert bolt and go bang. I had the barrel in a pipe vise sitting in a steel sawhorse (used for real pipe work).
The barrel was cooled off with water about every 40-50 rounds and it went fine.
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, IT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO YOU AND TO THE FIREARM.
 
Tod Soeby

Tod I have never seen 2-3 inch groups when fireforming anything other than Lost River Bullets and a barrel with one land missing 1.5 inches.
I think you are experiencing RE15 problems.I have shot a couple pounds of it and could never get consistency at all were I live.One day it shoots small the next day its over pressure and sticky bolt lift.The groups do the same kind of thing.
I know many shooters who swear by it and I have even witnessed them shoot small groups with it but in my humble opinion it is very sensitive to the conditions.
The Expiper shot 1.2XX with it out here at the 600 yard nationals but he lost alot of primers that day.
If it was my gun I'd try H4350 or Varget for the fireforming.I think Bob Hoppe shot a 0.5823 group at 600 using Varget so it can be done.
Lynn
 
Lynn,

Like I said, I have another 50 loaded with 105/27.5 varget. I think I will follow some of the advice given here and pull the bullets, neck up with a .257 die (although I have been told it is NOT the right tool), size back down, and load w/29.5 varget.

I was looking at some of my old targets when the gun was a 220 swift. 40 + targets, most of which were load development and not very good, which averaged .5252 (3 shot groups). I bought a SUPER TUNER for it a few years back, and when I found the "sweet spot" it shot "south" of .2" groups (again 3 shot groups). Problem was, the sweet spot changed every day. Not a lot, but enough to turn those into .4" + groups. Not bench rest quality, but wwwaaaaayyyy better than 2-3 inches!!!

I know the gun used to shoot before we "improved it". Oh yeah, I forgot, we also trued up the action, on top of all of the other stuff. I just can't imagine the number of things wrong, and what they are, to make it shoot this way.:mad: I was WAY to excited to get this gun......THAT WILL TEACH ME!!
 
Tod Soeby

Tod you mentioned a H-S stock with the aluminum bedding block.I had the PSS rifle with the same stock I think and there are two things about it that you need to watch.The first is the bolt handle cut out.I have seen very few of these stocks that the bolt handle doesn't touch the stock when the trigger is pulled.IOf you slip a thin strip of newspaper under the bolt handle and hold the handle down it shouldn't touch.You need to hog out this area if it is touching.
Those stocks are also made of a flexible pastic material and if the front rest is too far forward and you put on a long tube which is typical for this type of shooting it will flex around on you.This is easy to check for and correct just move the rest farther back and see what happens.
On your 257 die I have done lots of stuff like that in the past either because it was late at night or nobody local had the correct part.With the internet at your finger tips you can now simply go to the Bruno Shooters Supply website and get yourself a K-M Expandiron for 257 or 264 whichever you want for $15 and it threads right into your press with 7/8 threads.
I don't use the false shoulder approach myself as I don't move the shoulders forward on my cases but it seems reasonable.
I use cream of wheat and red dot to make my ackley cases.
Lynn
 
Tod Soeby,


I use a .257 right now for false shouldering 6BR brass, actually I'm running he cases up into a 25-05 die. I have a 6BR with a chamber that's 8 thousandths too long, to make the cases jamfit requires that I neck them up to .257 and then back down but leaving a pretty long section swelled up, 'WAYY more than the .008 of headspace, more like 1/8". If this link works here is a picture of my setup used recently.


http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4353/6/51/78/2/35/8/835027851605_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4353/6/51/78/2/35/8/835027851605_0_ALB.jpg


What happened was that I got invited to a match and wasn't ready. I had this barrel laying around that was nearly new but was chambered with too much headspace. The headspace is a problem because to addd length means that the GAPspace is now something like 20thousandths........'waayyyyy too much for comfort when shooting 30-40 bullets at a stretch. Oh Well, they let me clean between relays :eek:


So I had to make some brass.


I made these up quickly and shot them for the match with only one firing on them. This was all I could do. My targets showed it but I did OK considering.

I shot my sighters with brass that fit the chamber perfectly but hadn't been properly fireformed. They'd been fireformed by jamming the bullets deep. These other cases had 15 firings on them and were (are) well seasoned BUT I'd been going to go through and "cull" them because I feel that they threw shots. I feel that some of these sighters lied to me.

AND I shot a couple groups with brass which had been fireformed in another rifle that had 11 thou of headspace........ I bumped the shoulders back the .004 required for this barrel and used them. They shot great.



I'll go take some pix of my HG targets because I feel that they illustrate the difference between well-fitted and seasoned brass and brass with only one fireform shot on it.


al
 

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Yo Dawg,


You'se k'in call me names all's ya' want man!!! If you DO happen to come up with something new I'll write it in my ringbinder :D

"Saturday March Twenty Second Two Thousand and Eight, squeezed and pinched my neck, called me poopyhead"......... "Definitely called me bad names".



Re the calloused deformity;

You may not be able to disprove it, but if you've got measuring tools you can surely prove that it's deformed!

Chuck the case into a spinner and check for squareness of the casehead.

NOW, try to "fix it". :)



ka-tCHANGGGG!!!


Not an empirical proof but enough for Ol' Alinwa......


LOL



al
 
Ok, this is probably more "information" than anyone wants but this IMO illustrates the difference between brass that has only been fireformed by jamming the bullets VS brass which has been fired square. I lied in my other post.... upon rearranging the targets and checking the brass used I found (and remembered) that I fired my first HG group with the same thing that I'd used for my sighters. If I'd have had a scope capable of resolving bullet holes I'd have quit, changed loads and tried to salvage this target but Oh Well.... at least it centered up nice :D It turns out that I'd used the once-fired brass for my Light Gun rounds. (I figured at the time that this was probably my best brass and my best shot at hitting something but they shot ragged too.) The rounds used for Light Gun are the ones in the other pic where I documented the false-shouldering technique. They were NOT ready for competition with only one shot in them. BTW I'm not one of these guys who gets as good results fireforming as with fireformed brass. I think that's a sign of a screwed up gun.

Here are the three Heavy targets in order:

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4683/6/3/68/90/30/2/230906803605_0_ALB.jpg

((((As you can see I didn't win anything ;) ))))




And here are pix of each target so you can see the progression from "bullet-jam fireformed" and then two targets with properly made brass. As an aside, even the properly fireformed brass was from another gun entirely, I just bumped the shoulders back .004 to fit this barrel and hadn't even fired them in this rifle before. It is good brass though.



The brass in picture 1 is some that I've had for a long time, it's been fired 20+ times. It's in perfect shape but IMO it shoots raggedy groups because it's not square. I used it for my first HG round because it seemed like a good idea at the time. I had a lot of it, a full box, and had been using it to find the target and felt "centered" with it.


HG(1) http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4683/6/3/58/79/28/1/128795803605_0_ALB.jpg

Images HG(1) and HG(2) are targets fired with good, properly fireformed brass from another rifle (same reamer). I just reset the shoulders to fit and had at it. Compared to the first target I see a solid improvement. I am happy with the last two groups overall...........they were what I expected the rifle to do, and me with my 6.5X20 scope. I only really dropped one and I think I know which shot it was. Well OK, so the groups DID form a liddle LOW, but it was sunny/cloudy/sunny and I couldn't SEE! So THERE!! .... I was happy :)........with a 20 power scope you're shooting blind at 600 so I don't really know. I'll never again shoot 600 with only 20 power!

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4683/6/3/58/79/68/1/168795803605_0_ALB.jpg
http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4683/6/3/68/80/99/3/399806803605_0_ALB.jpg


I'm asking folks to try it out, don't take my word for it. I coulda' faked those targets, I just took the pix a half hour ago. ;) Sometimes the difference between good and bad brass is hard to see at 100yds. I test a lot at 200 and now at 350yds, differences really start to show up at the longer yardage.



So I dunno if it's FACT or not but I believe it :)



LOL



al
 

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Alinwa

Al those 1500 yard groups don't look all that bad but who is G Borden as seen on your ammo box.LOLROF
Lynn
 
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