Water soaked powder charge

H

HBC

Guest
Water soaked powder charge in 6mm-284

Several years ago, a charge of H4350 was soaked under water overnight. Next day the charge was dried quickly with several paper towels to get surface water off then arranged in a semicircle on the patio concrete floor. An equal amount of dry powder completed the circle. The powder was then ignited with a match and both dry and dampened powder charges burned normally and reached the opposite side of the circle at the same time. Interesting but not quantitative.

I have often wondered how such a water soaked charge would perform. Yesterday I placed 53.96 grains H1000 in a vile then covered the powder with water. This morning the water and charge were dumped, after 18 hr. 29 min. soaking, onto a paper towel, dried with that paper towel, dried with two more paper towels and loaded. As loaded, the charge weighed 54.74 grains, thus it gained about 1.45% water. The cartridge (6mm-284) with 6mm, 108-grain Euber VLD bullet seated to 3.013" COL, about 0.010" ITL, Winchester brass & Wolf primer was fired at a 25-yard target. Everything went normal with the bullet impacting about where expected after the rifle had been bore sighted.

The rifle: 700 Remington action (bought 49-years ago in Odessa, Texas), with Canjar set trigger, 26" Douglas chromoly barrel, 8" twist fitted with an Oehler M43 strain gage for pressure measurement.

The above test is preliminary to a 20-round test, with 20-charges weighed to 54.00 grains as close as possible, 10-charges soaked in water, 10-charges dry.

Measurements planned in the test:
1) Water weight gain for each of the water soaked charges
2) Muzzle velocity measured over a 48 foot sky screen spacing
3) Chamber pressure per the Oehler strain gage system
4) Groups captured electronically and with paper at 101.6 yards with the M43 system
5) BCg1 (this is just a byproduct but might as well be reported).

Why is this being done? Because it is interesting and I love to measure things.

Only the facts will be reported. Any shooter reading those facts can judge for himself the significance and sutibality for his purposes.

I forgot to say: The bullet was seated over the water soaked charge 17-minutes after the water and charge were dumped from the vile. The cartridge was fired 43-minutes after the water and charge were dumped from the vile.

H1000 was chosen for this test and H4350 chosen for the previous but somewhat similar test because those powders are extruded without a central hole. Thus it makes it easier to remove excess surface water from the powder granuels. The rifle will be equipped with a T16 scope.

Bob, I will take a photo of the pressure traces from both wet and dry charges and post them--I think the photos will be useable. I will probably shoot the test Tuesday morning.



Henry Childs
 
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Manufacture of smokeless powder:

Many of the old hands at shooting have likely read the quoted material below but it is presented here for some of the newer shooters who might not have read what constitutes smokeless powder and how smokeless powder is made:

The reference quoted below was written by Philip B. Sharpe, a noted
writer on small arms, primarily in the early 20th. Century. The author
spent a substantial amount of time at the Hercules Radford plant at
Radford, Virginia, often in areas where employees were not allowed at
certain times, to prepare Chapter II of the Supplement for shooters and
reloaders, to further their understanding of what smokeless powder consist
of and how it is made. Chapter II consists of pages 13 through 40 of the
Supplement.

The purpose of presenting the information quoted below is to state the
major operations in manufacturing smokeless powder but leaves out consider-
able detail presented by the author in Chapter II of the Supplement.
Chapter II of the Supplement, of course, does not include complete
technical detail of the physical facilities, chemical processes and
procedures required to complete the complex operations required for the
manufacture of smokeless powder.

The author stated that he studied the manufacture of smokeless powder in
the powder plants in 1944. Since that time, the process has likely changed
to some degree but it is likely that the same general process has been
updated with modern equipment, procedures and possibly propellant components
available in the latter years through 2011. HBC




Reference: Complete Guide to Handloading
by
Philip B. Sharpe

THIRD EDITION
second Revision
Supplement

FUNK & WAGNALLS COMPANY

New York

Copyright, 1937, 1941, 1949, 1952, AND 1953, BY

FUNK & WAGNALLS COMPANY

Now a subsidiary of: World Almanac Education Group, Inc
23221 Morgan Ct
Strongsville, OH 44149
216/663-8867


Quotes from: Chapter II of the Supplement, pages 13 through 40.

THE MANUFACTURE OF MODERN SMOKELESS POWDER

See the supplement of the reference book and find on page 14, following
page 463 of the INDEX of the book, the following two paragraphs which
states, as an outline, how nitrocellulose is made.

1) The inset paragraphs are quoted from the reference exactly except
that full justification is not employed below. Deviations from the
text are quoted with single marks, e.g. 'deg'. A line space in the
inset quote indicates a page change or a skip over a comment by the
author that was not required in the quote. Quotation marks within
the quoted text are as they appear in the book. Quotation marks
within introductory paragraphs are to indicate quotations from the
Supplement text:

Cotton linters are received in bales at the plant.
There they are broken and fluffed to properly dry
them and remove excess moisture. Where wood
pulp is used, it is first dried and then shredded.
From this point the manufacturing process is
identical.
The cellulose fibers are nitrated by immersion
and stirring in a mixture of nitric and sulphuric
acids, and following nitration, are freed of acids by
wringing, boiling, pulping, alkali poaching, screen-
ing, blending, and again wringing. This pure
nitrocellulose is then dehydrated, mixed with other
ingredients, dissolved in an ether-alcohol solvent,
and finally shaped into grains. In the manufacture
of double base powders, acetone is used as the basic
solvent instead of the ether-alcohol mix., and nitro-
glycerine is blended with the nitrocellulose.

On pages 14 and 15, the author describes cotton linters:

Smokeless powder manufacture begins with the
production of nitrocellulose from cellulose or vege-
table fiber. This basic ingredient was formerly
cotton linters. Just what are "linters"? In the
manufacture of cotton products, the white cotton
bolls are picked and baled for the processing mills.
Here they are fed into ginning machines which
remove the long fibers used in the manufacture
of cloth. Other machines handle the cotton seeds

from the gins and clip free the shorter fibers re-
maining. These shorter fibers are also used in
cloth, thread, felt, or batting. The clipping process
leaves very short fibers remaining, usually not more
than 1/8 inch in length. These are again clipped
free, and since they are too short to be used in
the manufacture of cotton goods, this by-product,
called linters, is disposed of to the powder and
plastics industry.

On pages 15 and 16 the following paragraph, which states the
functions of the nitric and sulphuric acids used:

The two basic acids used are sulphuric and
nitric. Nitrogen from the nitric acid combines
with the cellulose to convert it to nitrocellulose.
Since the mixture of the two acids contains a
small amount of water, and since water is re-
leased by the reaction of the nitric acid upon the
cellulose, the function of the sulphuric acid is
to combine with this water and prevent dilution of
the nitric acid during the chemical process of
nitration.
In the nitration of each pound of cellulose, one
pound of nitric acid and 1/2 pound of sulphuric
acid are consumed. Thus is produced about 1 1/2
pounds of nitrocellulose (dry weight), the exact
weight depending on the degree of nitration.

On page 17 of the supplement, it is explained that the common
term, nitrocellulose, used above is more accurately described
by the term, cellulose nitrate.

Also on page 17, two forms of nitrocellulose, S1 and S7, are
described. The paragraphs below are quoted exactly as stated
in 1) above except the subscripts for S1 & S2 in the reference
are typed below as postscripts:

No Single nitrocellulose is entirely adequate for
the manufacture of smokeless powders. Two
types are used, differing chiefly in degree of nitra-
tion. These are known as guncotton or high grade
nitrocellulose, designated by the trade as "S1" and
pyrocotton or low grade nitrocellulose, designated
as "S7". The "high" and "low" grades do not
refer to quality, but to degree of nitration. Thus
the high grade S1 is approximately 13.4% nitrated,
whereas low grade S7 is 12.6%. These two grades
are manufactured and mixed to produce a blend
having a nitrogen content of 13.15% for single
base powders and 13.45% for double base types.
It may seem that the above percentages of nitra-
tion could be secured without the preparation of
two types of nitrocellulose plus the additional work
of blending. However, a single type cannot be
used for two reasons: first, other requirements,
particularly that of solubility, makes the produc-
tion of a single grade of nitration impractical; and,
second, the blended product makes use of the com-
plementary qualities of the two grades employed.
Low grade nitrocellulose of 12.6% nitration is
99% soluble in the ether-alcohol solvent, used
later, and the high grade 13.4% is almost insoluble
(6% soluble). Therefore when the colloid known
as "smokeless powder" is formed, the soluble low
grade dissolves and acts as a vehicle carrying the
insoluble high grade in suspension. The high
grade has the greater explosive power--it produces
a large volume of gas at high pressure--and thus
supplies the high potential desired in the finished
product. Further, the high grade, being diffused
in a fibrous state throughout the soluble plastic
low grade, acts as an igniter for the low grade.
Perhaps the outstanding development in smoke-
less powder manufacture and performance has
been the evolution of the blending of these two
grades to achieve the desired results.

The process of manufacture of the two grades
of nitrocellulose is identical--the only difference
being in the nitrating time. The process of nitrat-
ing consists of stirring cellulose fibers in a pot
charged with a mixture of nitric and sulphuric
acids in proper proportions, and in agitating the
mixture at proper temperature for the required
time interval.

On page 19, following further details of nitriding wood pulp and
cotton linters, it is stated "Here the material was boiled for
50 hours to remove remaining water-soluble acids." And further in
the next paragraph "After 50 hours of this boiling, the water was
drained from the tub and replaced with fresh water. The boiling
was repeated for an additional 10 hours."

On page 19, description of the process of removing acids from the
nitrided pulp or linters is described:

From the dewatering pots the mass was pres-
sue-piped to another building where it fed into
large wooden tubs for the "poaching" process.
This additional step removed traces of acid which
might have escaped previous washes. A tub was
filled with the pulp, a mixture of soda ash and
water was added to neutralize all acidity, and the

tub contents were brought to a boil, again using
steam. The mixture was agitated by means of a
horizontal, mechanically operated propeller. After
agitation the pulp was rinsed to remove traces of
the alkali (soda ash) and piped to blenders
in the same building.

Following the description of the "poaching" process and a description
of a blending process, the following statement was made on page 20:

From the blenders the pulpy mass was hosed
into centrifugal wringers to reduce the water con-
tent to about 30%. Below this percentage,
nitrocellulose tends to catch fire spontaneously.

Further description states that the wet nitrocellulose is dehydrated
some in presses and almost simultaneously by introducing pure alcohol
into the top of the block of nitrocellulose to displace water out the
bottom. p. 21 - 22

Once the dehy presses were finished with the cake
of nitrocellulose, it became known as "powder".

After the presses, a charge of seven 441 pound blocks of nitrocellulose,
which included 91 pounds alcohol per block, is mixed with 213 pounds of
a mixture of ether and alcohol in proportions of 65 pounds ether to 35
pounds alcohol. In addition, diphenylamine, DPA, is added (0.5% to 2%)
as a stabilizer to protect against decomposition which would result from
the liberation of nitric and nitrous acids in the colloid. (see p. 23)

At this stage, dinitrotoluene, DNT was added to the mix as a deterrent
to slow the rate of burning for artillery powder. Small arms powder
is coated with DNT, later in the process.

The nitrocellulose, solvent and additives mixture was then mixed
approximately 45 minutes and then further processed in a macerator.
"This machine served only to continue the colloiding operation under
pressure. " (see p. 25)"

"From the macerator the rubbery chunks were transported to the
preliminary blocker for compression into cakes for ease in handling
in later stages of manufacture." (see p. 25)

On pages 28 and 29 it is described that two cakes of nitrocellulose,
including additives and solvent are placed in a press. The press
forces the material through two screens (a 16 mesh supporting a 40
mesh screen, p. 26) then through 49 dies to extrude 49 strands of
"green" powder with a single axial hole for small arms powder. (Some
extruded powders, e.g. those manufactured by ADI for Hodgdon, do not
have axial holes in the powder granules. HBC) The green powder strands
are collected in 49 containers to be transported to the cutting
machines.

On p. 30 it is stated, after the green powder has been cut into granule
lengths:

Green powder is now finished--but you still
can't shoot it. To transform it into a useable fin-
ished propellant, it is necessary to remove all traces
of solvent. The first step is to dry the powder, and
strange as it may seem, this drying is done with
water.

On p. 31 it is described that the majority of solvent is removed from
the green, cut powder in water sealed tanks by a flow of carbon dioxide
gas downward through 12,000 pound charges of green powder in the solvent
recovery building followed by water drying, described below. On p. 32,
coating of the powder with DNT is described:

When the powder arrived at the Water Dry
House, it still contained from 3% to 5% of the
solvent. This process was simple in that the pow-
der was aged and freed of traces of the solvent
by soaking in water for a predetermined length
of time. Open metal carts, usually of copper,
transported the powder to Water Dry, to be
emptied into wooden tanks 12 feet in diameter and
holding 50,000 to 60,000 pounds of powder, dry
weight. One of these tanks would normally handle
more than the charge capacity of an entire solvent
recovery building.
When the tank was filled with its charge of
powder, it was flooded with water heated to 65 'deg.' F.
For six days this water was circulated through the
batch by pumping it into the top and drawing it
off through the bottom. At the end of the six-
day water cure, the charge received one or two
rinses of water, and the batch was tested for free-
dom from solvent. If it passed, the water flow was
stopped and the tank permitted to drain dry. This
draining usually required from three to six hours.
The water-moist powder was then ready for the
air-dry process. Coating, a wet operation, was first
for rifle powders, so the moist powder was poured
into 50-pound canvas sacks and transferred to the
coating house.

The heavy copper coating bar-
rels took a charge of 1112 1/2 pounds of powder,
90 pounds of water, and 65 pounds of DNT. The
powder was first poured into the tumbling-barrel,
the oily brown sugar DNT was added, the water
run in, the cover sealed, and the motors started.

The powder was tumbled for one hour then washed:

The powder was gravity-
fed from a top floor through a hopper, washed
down with water, and passed through a series of
shaker screens to remove traces of dust and lumps
of individual grains which might have stuck to-
gether during the coating operation.

Following the deterrent coating, the powder was air
dried and coated with graphite, p. 24:

All small arms powders
were given a final coating of graphite, although
many cannon powders included this powdered
metal as part of the mixture. Besides its natural
lubricating qualities, graphite serves to reduce the
hazards of loading small arms ammunition. It
causes the powder grains to flow freely through

the hoppers, and since these powders, being a form of
plastic, are inclined to generate static electricity
when tumbled, the graphite serves as an electrical
conductor to dissipate this static by grounding it
through the metal hopper, the loading machine,
and thence to ground.


(On p. 24, the author referred to graphite as inert. Graphite
is not inert, it will burn. There is some free oxygen in the air
within a loaded cartridge case that likely combines with
some of the graphite. By "inert", possibly the author
meant that the graphite is not intended as a source of
propellant energy. HBC). The air dry process was described
on p. 33.:

Powder was air dried in tanks similar to those
used in solvent recovery. Here, any minor traces
of solvent remaining in the water-coated grains
was evaporated and exhausted to atmosphere.
Steam-laden air was passed through the powder
and the vapors discharged through a stack 3 feet
in diameter and 20 feet high. If the powder in
this process was of the double base type (nitro-
glycerine content) the nitroglycerine fumes were
absorbed by a tank of sodium hydroxide in the
bottom of the stack. The air within the stack was
kept preheated at all times to the high temperature
of 60 'deg.' to prevent condensation.

The air dry process took from one to five hours.
Rifle powders took more time than the larger sizes.
But at long last you had powder which could be
used. Only it needed a coating of graphite, or
"glazing," as the boys on the powder line chose
to call it.

The powder was again poured into sacks and
transported to the graphite house, a building
similar to the coating house. Here a charge of
approximately 5,000 pounds of powder was poured
into a kettle and 1 1/2 pounds of
powdered graphite sifted over the charge.

The reason for the barricaded graphite building
is that powder is dangerous before the graphite
coating is applied--static electricity could fire the
charge before the coating was uniformly applied.
Thus no employees were permitted within the
graphite house while the tumbling kettles were in
operation. But the observer was a gun nut--not
an "employee"....

After graphite coating the powder is blended. On p. 33, a
brief description of the blending process was given:

This is a rather simple operation; yet one that
is necessary, to create a final product of uniform
quality. A 5000 pound charge from the glazing
barrels was run into 100 50-pound canvas sacks.
These sacks were segregated by batches, and 100
batches were used in the preblending operation.
A sack from each batch was emptied into the
tumbling kettle. The tumbling blended these
thoroughly, whereupon they were resacked and
ready for a similar distribution in the final blend-
ing.

This was nothing but a repetition of the pre-
blending process. The 50-pound sacks were segre-
gated and a sack from each of 100 preblends was
poured into a final blending barrel. Thus, despite
the fact that a lot of IMR 4895 contained 55,000
to 60,000 pounds, the blending operation assured
little variation in the ballistic qualities of the many
lots emerging from the blending houses each day.

Beyond the steps outlined above, the powder is packaged.
On p. 36, the composition of two double base military powders are
given:

NITROGLYCERINE POWDER
manufacture

Although much of the equipment used in the
manufacture of the double base powders is like
the single base, and can be used interchangeably,
there is some special equipment, and a difference
in manufacturing procedure.
The major change began with the nitrocellulose
mix or blend. You will recall earlier in this chapter
that the low and high nitration nitrocelluloses were
blended for single base powders in proper pro-
portions to give a final blend of 13.15% nitrogen
and for double base types, 13.45%. Since cellulose,
having a nitration greater than 13.25%, is prac-
tically insoluble in the ether-alcohol solvent, but
is readily dissolved in acetone and nitroglycerine,
the later solvent was used for the double base
line. Acetone serves a dual purpose--added to the
nitroglycerine, it acts, not only as a solvent, but
also somewhat desensitizes the high explosive.
Formula for double base powders vary. Two
samples of military powders are given below to
show some of the possible variations:

MATERIALS M2 M5

Nitrocellulose 75.50% 81.50%
Nitroglycerine 20.00% 15.00%
Potassium nitrate 1.00% 1.00%
Barium nitrate 1.50% 1.50%
Diphenylamine 0.75% 0.75%
DNT 1.00% -----
Graphite 0.25% 0.25%

The familiar Hercules HiVel #2 powder is
grained somewhat differently from M5 army pow-
der, but is of the same nitroglycerine content and
approximately the same formula.

MANUFACTURING TIME, p. 39:

The time required in powder manufacture
naturally varied with the individual types. Small
arms single base powders such as IMR 4895 ran
from the raw cotton linters or wood pulp stage to
the final packing of the powder in about 16 to 17
days, the greater part of this time being used to
purify the green powder.

Summary of some ingredients of smokeless powders for small arms from
the referenced book and other sources from the internet:

Portion of
Propellant
by mass Chemical Formula

Nitrocellulose---------85%-95% C6H7(NO2)3O5 + 3H2O, approx. 2)
Nitroglycerine---------0 to about 20% C3H5N3O9 3)
Potassium sulphate-----1% K2SO4 4)
Graphite---------------0.03%-0.25% C 5)
Diphenylamine (DPA)----0.5% to 2% (C6H5)2NH 6)
Dinitrotoluene (DNT)---0.06% dry C6H3(CH3)(NO2)2 7)

2) Double base powders contain about 80% nitrocellulose.
3) A high explosive, mixed with acetone to mix with nitrocellulose
which adds a higher energy content to the nitrocellulose.
4) Potassium sulphate reduces muzzle flash slightly.
5) Graphite is an allotrope of carbon. In the text, p. 33, it is
stated that 1.5 pounds of graphite is mixed with approximately
5000 pounds powder, that is 0.03% graphite. On p. 36, the table
showing ingredients of two double base powders, M2 and M5, the
graphite content is shown as 0.25%.
6) A stabilizer to prevent the formation of acids and thus reduce
deterioration of the powder and reduce the chances of auto-
combustion.
7) DNT is a deterrent used to reduce the burning rate of nitrocellu-
lose, highly explosive and sold with a maximum moisture content of
1%. DNT solubility in water is up to 150 ppm. When mixed into
the propellant (as opposed to coating the outside surface for
small arms powder), DNT reduces the hygroscopic properties of
nitrocellulose.

On p. 32, it is described that 65 pounds DNT is mixed with
1112 1/2 pounds of powder (probably moist powder), which would
mean that 5.8% DNT was mixed with powder for coating.

On one internet source, Wikipedia, it is stated that:
"Dinitrotoluene (toxic, carcinogenic, and obsolete)"
Centralites and dibutyl phthalate are shown as deterrents.

In Sharpe's Supplement, he mentioned that the old celluloid film was nitrocellulose
but that comment could not be located again but an interesting tidbit was found on
the Internet.

A search for "Using shredded celluloid film for gunpowder" turned up the Internet
site "http://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/1915/frickd15921.pdf..."
from which the following quote was copied and pasted. (A shooting friend told of African
hunters using shredded celluloid film in a similar manner as stated below and in looking
for that information, the following quote was found, copied and pasted below.):

The belligerent tribes of the Khyber Pass area of India and also those of the
Kurdish region of Iran and Iraq…used to raid the local cinemas periodically and
cart off all the movie film on hand, which they would later shred up for
gunpowder. It worked fine, and put British patrols in the tragic-comic
predicament of being decimated by an early edition of Beau Geste or The Great
Train Robbery.16

The paragraph above is quoted from Caroline Jane Frick's Doctoral Dissertation:

Restoration Nation:

Motion Picture Archives and "American" Film Heritage




Additional information about the constituents of propellants M2 and M5 plus a single base IMR propellant.
----------------------------------Information within brackets, [ ], by HBC.

From Interior Ballistics of Guns, page 310, Table 2
Edited by
Herman Krier and Martin Summerfield

Progress in Astronautics
And Aeronautics

Martin Summerfield
Series Editor-in-Chief

Volume 66

ISBN 0-915928-32-9

Copyright 1979 by
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Constituent--------------------M2----------------- M5-----------------IMR [1)]
Nitrocellulose (NC), %-----77.45---------------81.95----------------100.00
% nitrogen in NC-----------(13.25)--------------(13.25)-------------(13.15)
Nitroglycerin, %-------------19.50---------------15.00----------------…
Barium nitrate, %------------1.40-----------------1.40-----------------…
Potassium nitrate, %--------0.75------------------0.75-----------------…
Potassium sulfate, %--------…-------------------…-------------------1.00 a
Dinitrotoluene, %----------- …------------------- …------------------- 8.00 b
Diphenylamine, %-----------…-------------------…-------------------0.70
Ethyl centralite, %-----------0.60---------------- 0.60-----------------…
Graphite, %-------------------0.30---------------- 0.30-----------------…
Ethyl Alcohol(residual), %-----2.30-----------------2.30-----------------1.50
Water (residual), %--------- 0.70-----------------0.70-----------------1.00
Isochoric flame temp.
-------------- Tv, K----------3319-[5515 F]----3245 [5382 F]----2835 [4643 F]
Unoxidized carbon, %------0--------------------0---------------------2.7
Combustibles, %------------ 47.2-----------------47.4-----------------59.2
Heat of explosion, cal/g----1080 [4521 J/g]----1047 [4383 J/g]----868 [3633 J/g]
Density, g/cm3---------------1.65-----------------1.65-----------------1.62 [density of solid NC]

a) Added. b) Glaze added.
[Isochoric: A constant volume process as in a bomb calorimeter.]
[1) It was not stated which IMR propellant, (possibly IMR 4895)]
 
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Thank you for posting the powder manufacturing information. It would not be easy for most of us to come by. I have copied it into a word document for future reference.
Boyd
 
This information lends itself to an earlier discussion re 'grounding' powder measures. The graphite is there to promote conductivity allowing electrical differentials to 'bleed off' or stabilize instead of arcing.

Good Stuff Henry

al
 
Test completed about Noon, 6/14/11

WATER SOAKED CHARGES OF H1000 IN 6MM-284:

Several years ago, a charge of H4350 was soaked under water overnight. Next day the charge was dried quickly with several paper towels to get surface water off then arranged in a semicircle on the patio concrete floor. An equal amount of dry powder completed the circle. The powder was then ignited with a match and both dry and dampened powder charges burned normally and reached the opposite side of the circle at the same time. Interesting but not quantitative.

I have often wondered how such a water soaked charge would perform. Yesterday I placed 53.96 grains H1000 in a vile then covered the powder with water. This morning the water and charge were dumped, after 18 hr. 29 min. soaking, onto a paper towel, dried with that paper towel, dried with two more paper towels and loaded. As loaded, the charge weighed 54.74 grains, thus it gained about 1.45% water. The cartridge (6mm-284) with 6mm, 108-grain Euber VLD bullet seated to 3.013" COL, about 0.010" ITL, Winchester brass & Wolf primer was fired at a 25-yard target. Everything went normal with the bullet impacting about where expected after the rifle had been bore sighted.

The rifle: 700 Remington action (bought 49-years ago in Odessa, Texas), with Canjar set trigger, 26" Douglas chromoly barrel, 8" twist fitted with an Oehler M43 strain gage for pressure measurement.

The above test is preliminary to a 20-round test, with 20-charges weighed to 54.00 grains as close as possible, 10-charges soaked in water, 10-charges dry.

Measurements planned in the test:
1) Water weight gain for each of the water soaked charges
2) Muzzle velocity measured over a 48-foot sky screen spacing
3) Chamber pressure per the Oehler strain gage system
4) Groups captured electronically and with paper at 101.6 yards with the M43 system
5) BCg1 (this is just a byproduct but might as well be reported).

Why is this being done? Because it is interesting and I love to measure things.

Only the facts will be reported. Any shooter reading those facts can judge for himself the significance and suitability for his purposes.

I forgot to say: The bullet was seated over the water soaked charge 17-minutes after the water and charge were dumped from the vile. The cartridge was fired 43-minutes after the water and charge were dumped from the vile.

H1000 was chosen for this test and H4350 chosen for the previous but somewhat similar test because those powders are extruded without a central hole. Thus it makes it easier to remove excess surface water from the powder granules. The rifle will be equipped with a T16 scope.



Henry Childs


WATER SOAKED H1000 SMOKELESS POWDER CHARGES

Test: The purpose of the test was to load 20-cartridges identically but with ten of those cartridges being loaded with 54.00 grains of dry H1000 and ten cartridges loaded with 54.00 grains H1000 after being soaked under water overnight, then fire the cartridges to compare performance as described below:

Test Equipment:

Remington 700 with Douglas 26" chromoly barrel with 8" twist (barrel fitted with Oehler M43 strain gage. The Douglas barrel was probably purchased in 1990 shortly after purchasing my first Oehler M43 system. The barrel probably has less than 500 rounds fired in it.). The barrel was chambered by Douglas and was purchased to use primarily in pressure test firing with the Oehler M43 system but has been used for some deer hunting.

Oehler M43 with 48-foot sky screen spacing, acoustic target placed at 101.6 yards.

Cartridge: 6mm-284, Winchester brass weighed for consistent average weight of the two 10-shot test loads. In addition the extraction groove diameters of the two 10-shot groups were measured and found to have an average diameter within 0.0003" of each other, that to insure that the extraction grooves did not contribute to the case weight variation.

Load: 20 rounds loaded with 54 grains H1000 powder, Wolf primers and Euber 108 grain VLD bullet, 3.013" COL, 0.010" ITL 10 of the 20 charges were soaked in water for an average of 22 hours.

Additional information: The 20 cartridge case necks were annealed and reamed to remove "donuts". The ten "dry" cases weighed 1927.10 grains. The ten "wet" cases weighed 1927.00 grains. The 20 powder charges varied in weight from 54.00 grains to 54.02 grains. Lot numbers: H1000--8 1122003725; Euber bullets--10; Wolf primers--11-09.

The information below is about the ten “dry” charges and ten “wet” charges of H1000:

………………………………................................................................................. Dry charge component of
………………………………................................................................................. “wet” charges plus water,
Order of………“Dry” charges,………………Dry charge component of…………seconds before loading,
Fire…………….grains………………………“wet” charges, grains………………grains

1.………………..54.02.…………………………….54.00.……………………………....54.76
2.………………..54.00.……………………………..54.02.……………………………...54.74
3.………………. 54.02.…………………………….54.00.……………………………....54.74
4.………………. 54.02.…………………………….54.00.……………………………....54.74
5.………………..54.00.……………………………..54.02.……………………………....54.76
6.………………..54.02.……………………………..54.00.……………………………....54.70
7.………………. 54.02.……………………………..54.00.……………………………....54.74
8.………………..54.00.……………………………..54.00.……………………………....54.74
9.………………..54.02.……………………………..54.00.……………………………....54.74
10.……………….54.02.……………………………..54.01.……………………………....54.75



Rifle weight: 10.42 pounds. The forearm was fitted with a 3" wide aluminum plate to rest on the front bag.

H1000 water soak time: Varied from 21 hrs. 10 min. to 22 hrs. 54 min.

Euber bullets: Extremely consistent in base to ogive with a full range variation of 0.0005" for the 20 test bullets. Weight varied from 107.96 grains to 108.02 grains. The length of the bullets was 1.217" with (14) varying +- 0.0005" and (6) varying a maximum of +- 0.0015"


Test was fired 6/14/2011 between 11:00 A.M. and Noon with conditions of 96 F @ 34% R.H. and 29.97" Hg corrected barometric pressure at and elevation of 130 ft. AMSL

The barrel was cleaned thoroughly 6/13/2011. Four fouling rounds were fired immediately before the test.

The ten dry rounds were fired first with the following results:

Average muzzle velocity of 2981 f/s with an e.s. of 32 f/s
Average peak pressure exceeded the wet charge average peak pressure by 18.6%
Average BCg1 of 0.444 with an e.s. of 0.017 or 3.8%
The 10-shot group impacted at 101.6 yards into a 0.88" group with 9-rounds into 0.80"

The ten wet rounds initially had charges of 54.00 grains H1000, were soaked under water for an average of 22 hours. The wet charges were poured separately onto a paper towel to remove excess water then placed on a second paper towel to remove additional surface water. At that point the powder had absorbed water and likely had water on the powder granule surfaces in the maximum amount of 1.13 grains or 2.09%. To provide wet charges with consistent amounts of water, the wet charges were air dried for approximately ten minutes each to reduce the water gain to an average of just under 0.74 grains for a 1.36% average gain in water.

The ten wet rounds were fired last with the following results:

Average muzzle velocity of 2764 f/s with an e.s. of 27 f/s
Average peak pressure was 15.7% below the average peak pressure of the dry charge
Average BCg1 of 0.443 with an e.s. of 0.010 or 2.3%
The 10-shot group impacted at 101.6 yards into a 1.00" group with 9-rounds into 0.67"

Thus, comparing the water soaked wet charges to the dry charges, by adding 1.36% by weight water to each 54.00 grain H1000 charges the wet charges:

Average muzzle velocity was reduced approximately 217 f/s or 7.28%
Average peak chamber pressure was reduced approximately 15.7%.
The 10-shot groups and BCg1 for the two loads were basically equivalent.

Henry Childs
 
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Photos of M43 output

The results in the attached photos are based on default atmospheric data but the results are close. The output data in my last post above reflects the correct atmospheric data.

The left photo is of the M43 output for the "dry" load and the right photo for the "wet" load.

Henry
 

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Henry, Thank you for posting your study. Very informative. Some time back, I placed some powder outside in the damp
night air and loaded it in the am. Armed only with an Oehler 33, I compared it with powder that had been dehydrated. The
Velocity loss for the damp powder was near 150fps. I did not test weigh for the water gain, and simply assumed that it did.
Great work.
 
Previous test resullts

Bob,

I edited the post above, with the test results, by adding the following information:

Additional information: The 20 cartridge case necks were annealed and reamed to remove "donuts". The ten "dry" cases
weighed 1927.10 grains. The ten "wet" cases weighed 1927.00 grains. The 20 powder charges varied in weight from 54.00
grains to 54.02 grains. Lot numbers: H1000--8 1122003725; Euber bullets--10; Wolf primers--11-09.
Rifle weight: 10.42 pounds. The forearm was fitted with a 3" wide aluminum plate to rest on the front bag.
H1000 water soak time: Varied from 21 hrs. 10 min. to 22 hrs. 54 min.
Euber bullets: Extremely consistent in base to ogive with a full range variation of 0.0005" for the 20 test bullets. Weight
varied from 107.96 grains to 108.02 grains.
The length of the bullets were 1.217" with (14) varying +- 0.0005" and (6) varying a maximum of +- 0.0015"

Bob,

Here is the test made in 2005 (Also, Wikipedia has some very informative information on Relative Humidity.):


NITROCELLULOSE BASED RIFLE POWDER WEIGHT CHANGE WHEN EXPOSED TO ATMOSPHERE

Beginning on 11/7/2005, five powder samples were poured in plastic
containers and exposed to the atmosphere inside a shop for 26.22
hours, see results for tests #1 through #5 below.

Begining on 11/8/2005, two additional powder samples were tested
by exposing the powder to the atmosphere for 24.73 hours, see results
for tests #6 and #7.

The tests were performed inside a shop where no heating or cooling
equipment was operated during the test. Temperature in the shop
varied from a low of 65 F to a high of 72 F with outside humidity
varying from a low of 60 F dew point to a high of 68 F dew point.
Corrected barometric pressure varied from a low 30.07" Hg to a high
of 30.19" Hg at 130 feet above mean sea level.

#1) Ramshot Big Boy, now named Magnum, lot 6 12 01, 73:

initial tare weight--281.11 grains (gn.)
gross weight----2437.10 gn. @ 11:27 am, 11/7/05
gross weight----2437.22 gn. @ 2:32 pm, 11/7/05
gross weight----2436.90 gn. @ 7:16 pm, 11/7/05
gross weight----2436.42 gn. @ 7:49 am, 11/8/05
gross weight----2436.56 gn. @ 1:40 pm, 11/8/05
final tare weight--281.20 gn. (tare weight change: 0.09 gn.)

powder test weigh--2155.99 gn., weight loss--0.63 gn. (-0.029%)


#2) Hodgdon Varget, lot 8 0507013803:

initial tare weight--278.18 gn.
gross weight----2211.42 gn. (time and date for test #1 applies to
gross weight----2212.08 gn. tests #2, #3, #4 and #5)
gross weight----2212.42 gn.
gross weight----2212.74 gn.
gross weight----2212.90 gn.
final tare weight--278.22 gn. (tare weight change: 0.04 gn.)

powder test weight--1933.24 gn., weight gain 1.44 gn. (+0.074%)


#3) Alliant RL22, lot 9/139:

initial tare weight--278.70 gn.
gross weight----2397.44 gn.
gross weight----2397.58 gn.
gross weight----2397.46 gn.
gross weight----2397.28 gn.
gross weight----2397.36 gn.
final tare weight--278.76 gn. (tare weight change: 0.06 gn.)

powder test weight--2118.74 gn., weight loss 0.14 gn. (-0.0066%)

#4) IMR 4350, lot 502AU09, L6694:

initial tare weight--276.14 gn.
gross weight----2433.66 gn.
gross weight----2433.46 gn.
gross weight----2433.12 gn.
gross weight----2432.68 gn.
gross weight----2432.58 gn.
final tare weight--276.20 gn. (tare weight change: 0.06 gn.)

powder test weight--2157.52 gn., weight loss 1.14 gn. (-0.053%)


#5) Vihtavouri N170, lot 571-95:

initial tare weight--281.96 gn.
gross weight----2993.90 gn.
gross weight----2993.90 gn.
gross weight----2993.72 gn.
gross weight----2993.40 gn.
gross weight----2993.30 gn.
final tare weight--282.06 gn. (tare weight change: 0.10 gn.)

powder test weight--2711.94 gn., weight loss 0.70 gn. (-0.026%)


#6) Vihtavouri N160, lot 583/02:

initial tare weight--276.20 gn.
gross weight----2644.50 gn. @ 2:08 pm, 11/8/05
gross weight----2645.02 gn. @ 6:11 pm, 11/8/05
gross weight----2645.76 gn. @ 9:00 am, 11/9/05
gross weight----2646.04 gn. @ 2:52 pm, 11/9/05
final tare weight--276.16 gn. (tare weight change: -0.04 gn.)

powder test weight--2368.36 gn., weight gain 1.58 gn. (+0.067%)

#7) Vihtavouri N165, lot 726-03:

initial tare weight--282.04 gn.
gross weight----2608.50 gn. (time and date for test #1 applies to
gross weight----2608.80 gn. test #7)
gross weight----2609.42 gn.
gross weight----2609.62 gn.
final tare weight--282.04 gn. (tare weight change: 0)

powder test weight--2326.94 gn., weight gain 1.12 gn. (+0.048%)

#8) IMR 4198, lot E940C25 L3202:

initial tare weight--1123.70 gn.
gross weight----3458.86 gn. @ 9:40 am, 11/10/05
gross weight----3456.84 gn. @ 11:47 am, 11/10/05
gross weight----3455.90 gn. @ 1:56 pm, 11/10/05
gross weight----3454.34 gn. @ 4:07 pm, 11/10/05
gross weight----3454.16 gn. @ 9:57 am, 11/11/05
final tare weight--1123.78 gn. (tare weight change: 0.08 gn.)

Powder test weight--2335.16 gn., weight loss 4.78 gn. (-0.205%)


Note: The tare weight, weight of the open top plastic margarine tubs
the powder was tested in, gained a small amount of weight during
the test. The tare weight gain was accounted for in the net loss
or gain of weight of the test powders. A thin walled stainless
steel bowl would probably be a better choice for the test contain-
ers. The weight gain of the plastic containers might have been
due to absorption or adsorption of residual ethanol and/or ether,
used in the manufactur of the test single base propellants or
possibly acetone in the case of double base propellants.

Some propellants listed in the test results above show weight
gain and some show weight loss even though they underwent similar
manufacturing processes. The difference in weight change might be
explained by the water content as controlled by the manufacturer.
That is, some manufacturers control the burning rate of canister
propellants, sold to reloaders, by mixing water into the powder.
Thus a powder with little or no water added might absorb water
from the atmosphere while a powder requiring the addition of a
significant amount of water, might loose weight when exposed to
the atmosphere.

A control test weight of 820.26 grains was used throughout the
test to check the repeatability of the balance. The test weight
showed that the balance weighed consistently throughout the tests.
The balance used is an A&D FX300 electronic balance with a resol-
ution of 0.02 grains and a full scale capacity of 4784 grains.

Note for test #8:
The powder charge for test #8 was weighed in a stainless steel
bowl of about 4" diameter. The tare weight gain of 0.08 grains,
might have been caused by solvents from the smokeless powder adsorb-
ing on the surface of the stainless steel bowl.

After the SS bowl set for five days, the tare weight remained at
1123.78 grains. The bowl was then placed on a raidant type
surface burner on a cooking stove and heated for about two minutes,
allowed to cool then heated another minute. As the bowl heated,
an odor similar to smokeless powder was observed. After the bowl
cooled to under 150 F, it was weighed again at 1123.66 grains.

During test #8, inside the shop where the test was conducted,
temperature vaired from a low of about 62 F at night to a high
of about 68 F during the day. Humidity, outside the shop, varied
from a dew point of 28 F to 38 F and corrected barometric press-
ure at 130 feet above mean sea level varied from 30.20" Hg to
30.31" Hg.


Henry Childs
November, 2005
Revised 6/15/2011 (adding comment about acetone)
 
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Henry...............very interesting test! (I see no problem posting :) )
In simple terms.............Since most long range shooters pre-load, would it be safe to say that the rounds loaded at home in my shop would not change significantly if I get to a match and it is high humidity or damp? The loaded round is sealed tight enough where humidity would not effect the charge? On the other hand, a short range benchrester who loads at the range might experience a change if the weather becomes more damp or more dry?
Rich De
 
Rich I have always thought along those lines and so do most SR shooters.
However I find this whole thing interesting in that he did get a better group from the wet powder. However a hunting rifle and a BR rifle are 2 different animals.
It makes me think maybe we are confused about the humidity thing but everything points to the opposite.
Wish I could see these results done with a br rifle with a known load that shoots.

But thanks for all you have done here HBC. I dont want to sound ungrateful.
 
See Norma Reloading Manual, Edition 1, p. 118

Rich,

I was going to make this post tomorrow but your question, on the effects of humidity on loaded ammo, leads right to it, so here it is today:

On the referenced page in the Norma manual there is a chart for the 30-06 cartridge showing the effects of humidity on the 30-06 ammunition stored at stated humidity levels for over 600 days. The time period with the greatest change in velocity per day appears to be from about day 275 to day 320. Over that 45 day period the ammo velocity change, checked periodically, was a little over 9 f/s, thus an average daily change of about 0.2 f/s. Thus if it took you five days to travel to the match and complete your shooting, your velocity change might be on the order of 1 f/s. I don't have a problem with changes that small.

I had a couple of questions about Norma's test and sent an e-mail to them with those questions and Dr. Don Heath of Norma was gracious in responding and providing the following useful information, copied and pasted below from his e-mail. I doubt that he will mind me quoting his statement:

Henry



With fresh factory brass, and proper primer seating there should be no leakage up to 80º C. On reloaded ammo, all bets are off, but unless stored under very poor conditions they are well enough sealed for all normal sporting use over reasonable lengths of time. The military however, require the primers and bullets to be sealed in with shellac or similar and packaged in air tight bags for a reason….Ammunition is often stored at very high temperatures, in high humidity for years on end. Those are not conditions sport shooters should subject their ammo to.



Yours faithfully



Dr Don Heath D.Sc

Manager Technical Support

Norma Precision AB

S 670 40

Åmotfors
 
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Vern...........read Henry's post on his results again: The dry powder produced a .88" group at 2981 fps and the wet powder a 1.0" group at 2764.

Thanks for the reply Henry.
Rich De
 
Rich unless I am misreading this....
"The ten dry rounds were fired first with the following results:

Average muzzle velocity of 2981 f/s with an e.s. of 32 f/s
Average peak pressure exceeded the wet charge average peak pressure by 18.6%
Average BCg1 of 0.444 with an e.s. of 0.017 or 3.8%
The 10-shot group impacted at 101.6 yards into a 0.88" group with 9-rounds into 0.80""
AND
"The ten wet rounds were fired last with the following results:

Average muzzle velocity of 2764 f/s with an e.s. of 27 f/s
Average peak pressure was 15.7% below the average peak pressure of the dry charge
Average BCg1 of 0.443 with an e.s. of 0.010 or 2.3%
The 10-shot group impacted at 101.6 yards into a 1.00" group with 9-rounds into 0.67""

The 9 round listings are smaller for the wet powder, that is what I was referencing.

That is .80 for 9 dry and .67 for 9 wet. He mentioned the 9 group spread for a reason most likely.
 
OK, I see what you mean............but, unless he shot more groups, I would not hang my hat on just that one group. And, the wet powder lost a lot of fps.
Rich De
 
If we considered the actual "tune" of a rifle it could have been nothing more that that velocity with that powder was actually the best tune and nothing really to do with the water itself. In other words it could have been done duplicated with the dry powder at a lower charge.
 
Henry, thankyou once again. Your work is greatly appreciated. I do have some questions that I'm sure you can answer.
1. Is powder hydroscopic or is moisture simply held at its surface ?
2. As a practical matter, how soon would powder be affected by humidity once a can is opened. Lets assume
a shooter arives at the range with last years notebook, sets up his Chrono. Fills his powder measure with
new and fairly dry powder and leaves the top off his measure and the Humidity is 80%
 
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