Voodoo Rifle Accuracy

scasa said:
What I'm most curious is are the receivers threaded for the barrel and the locking lugs, cocking cams, sear arrangement ,primary extraction and so on . I make some rimfire actions and I like to see what others are doing. I'm pretty much set on what I like to build with the exception of having a front locking lug .22 maybe someday I'll figure it out. If you have some pictures I'd sure like to see them. I also wonder on why you chose a cut rifled barrel. I guess that's a question.


Thanks Les
Click to expand...

Yessir, the receiver is threaded, the major is 1.062 and it's a true mid-lock. There are no lug ways forward of the locking abutments in the receiver. The 40X and true clones of the 40X all have lug ways forward of the locking abutments. The V-22 and variants of the V-22 such as the BR/F-Class actions, are not 40X clones. I'll post pics of various parts later tomorrow.

Just a couple reasons for using cut rifled barrels is they're more precise than button barrels and there's no stress induced by the cut rifling process. But, of the many reasons for choosing them, I have to say the biggest reason is many believe they won't perform as a rimfire barrel. I don't subscribe to this belief....

MB
 
DEFTI RIMFIRE said:
Yessir, the receiver is threaded, the major is 1.062 and it's a true mid-lock. There are no lug ways forward of the locking abutments in the receiver. The 40X and true clones of the 40X all have lug ways forward of the locking abutments. The V-22 and variants of the V-22 such as the BR/F-Class actions, are not 40X clones. I'll post pics of various parts later tomorrow.

Just a couple reasons for using cut rifled barrels is they're more precise than button barrels and there's no stress induced by the cut rifling process. But, of the many reasons for choosing them, I have to say the biggest reason is many believe they won't perform as a rimfire barrel. I don't subscribe to this belief....

MB
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Please permit me to ask two questions. Are your extractor/ejector located at 180 degrees and do either of them contact the the case while at battery?

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
Please permit me to ask two questions. Are your extractor/ejector located at 180 degrees and do either of them contact the the case while at battery?

TKH
Click to expand...

The extractors in the repeaters are 180 degrees apart and neither contact the case head while the bolt is closed. The extractor timing is such that, as the bolt is cammed closed, the extractors let go of the case head. As the bolt is opened, the timing dictates the extractors re-grip the case head.

MB
 
DEFTI RIMFIRE said:
The extractors in the repeaters are 180 degrees apart and neither contact the case head while the bolt is closed. The extractor timing is such that, as the bolt is cammed closed, the extractors let go of the case head. As the bolt is opened, the timing dictates the extractors re-grip the case head.

MB
Click to expand...

I am very sorry you weren't treated well at the bench rest matches you attended. I assure you that is not the norm.

We bench rest shooters are so few we really try to make new comers welcome.

Quite normally if someone shows up "just to watch" they are offered use of a rifle, rest, and ammo to give it a try.

As for the shooting done after the clock starts, but before the scoring targets are shot, is not just to warm up the barrel.

Most bench rest shooters clean their barrel before every target, and certainly before every match. The shooting is done to re establish the wax track in the barrel.

It may take 10 - 25 rounds or more before the rifles shoots to maximum accuracy.

When shooting indoors, another reason for shooting many rounds before the scoring targets is to establish range conditions. Or said another way, establish where the "miss" is at.

Quite normally there is a push (movement) that sends bullets off the point of aim. This push can be simply sighting errors (mirage), but it can also be air movement within the building.

Many times the push will recur through out the target often enough you can cheat to one side or high/ low and keep hitting the 10 ring. However if there is a lot of movement in the building it can be completely unpredictable.

This mirage/air movement effects point of impact differently depending on the bench location.

Yes, there really is some benches better than others even indoors, but this changes depending on what and where the action is happening in the building.

It is rare when one can use one point of aim all the way through a target.

Rimfire bench rest is a great game, but it is an acquired taste. Once you shoot it enough it is hard to do anything else. Hope you will join us again sometime.

TKH
 
Thanks to TKH

I appreciate your input . I only got to shoot one match before I moved back to ks but I had fun and your right everyone was very helpful to someone just starting out. It's a very addictive sport.
 
Cut rifled barrels

Mr. Voodoo....what make of cut rifled barrels do you use...any special twist or size?

Thanks,

High Noon
 
tonykharper said:
I am very sorry you weren't treated well at the bench rest matches you attended. I assure you that is not the norm.

We bench rest shooters are so few we really try to make new comers welcome.

Quite normally if someone shows up "just to watch" they are offered use of a rifle, rest, and ammo to give it a try.

As for the shooting done after the clock starts, but before the scoring targets are shot, is not just to warm up the barrel.

Most bench rest shooters clean their barrel before every target, and certainly before every match. The shooting is done to re establish the wax track in the barrel.

It may take 10 - 25 rounds or more before the rifles shoots to maximum accuracy.

When shooting indoors, another reason for shooting many rounds before the scoring targets is to establish range conditions. Or said another way, establish where the "miss" is at.

Quite normally there is a push (movement) that sends bullets off the point of aim. This push can be simply sighting errors (mirage), but it can also be air movement within the building.

Many times the push will recur through out the target often enough you can cheat to one side or high/ low and keep hitting the 10 ring. However if there is a lot of movement in the building it can be completely unpredictable.

This mirage/air movement effects point of impact differently depending on the bench location.

Yes, there really is some benches better than others even indoors, but this changes depending on what and where the action is happening in the building.

It is rare when one can use one point of aim all the way through a target.

Rimfire bench rest is a great game, but it is an acquired taste. Once you shoot it enough it is hard to do anything else. Hope you will join us again sometime.

TKH
Click to expand...

Thanks TKH, I appreciate your perspective, but to be more clear, I didn't say I wasn't treated well at the matches; I stated, in so many words, that I wasn't a fan of the drama. Various individuals/groups seemed to find it really easy and somehow satisfying to speak ill of other individuals/groups and I personally find that very hard to trust. I also see it played out on the BR forums, which aren't welcoming to new/inexperienced BR shooters. Too many remarks/comments are veiled in arrogance and some don't actually bother to veil the arrogance at all. I couple this activity with the outright conjecture involved in most technical discussions and have chosen to step back from the BR forums and approach BR my own way.

I get what you're saying about dealing with ambient conditions and this is where I struggle with the "demands" of BR. These ambient conditions are the same for all disciplines of shooting and experience is the greatest of all tools when it comes to a higher level of performance, not gear. When I hear/read comments as I've read here about Vudoo platforms not being up to par for BR shooting, it's possibly true in some areas of platform execution (stock type, bedding, tuner, etc), but people that purchase a Vudoo aren't experienced BR shooters and aren't looking for certain refinements in execution of the platform itself. From a design standpoint, the Vudoo action is designed and made just as well and in some cases better based on the BR actions I've looked at. This is the area where it's important to keep the discussion relevant, as most BR shooters making such comments haven't actually seen or shot a Vudoo but choose to speak factually without having any facts....clearly comparing apples to oranges.

What you're saying about laying down a fresh wax track makes perfect sense now, but wasn't the explanation I received at one of the matches I attended. Not sure if I asked someone lacking experience as it's possible he may have been doing it without really knowing why. I appreciate you explaining that, as I generally don't clean a barrel until accuracy falls off, around the 2000 round mark depending on where I've been shooting.

I fully intend to participate in BR. I've developed an action specific to the discipline and the rifles themselves will be built differently than our repeaters. I've also developed my own trigger within direct collaboration with Flavio Fare (part of the design is mine, other parts are mechanisms he was already using). I'm testing various barrel designs, none of them button, and the results I'm seeing are quite interesting and the coolest thing is, there's actual data. There's also a lot of interest in F-Class which I believe I'm more interested in.

Thanks again TKH, I appreciate you taking the time to offer a perspective that's easy to latch on to.

MB
 
High Noon said:
Mr. Voodoo....what make of cut rifled barrels do you use...any special twist or size?

Thanks,

High Noon
Click to expand...

We use our own along with Bartlein and Krieger....most all are the standard 16 twist, but I have other twist rates in testing. My favorite so far based on the results is a single digit twist.

MB
 
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DEFTI RIMFIRE said:
Thanks TKH, I appreciate your perspective, but to be more clear, I didn't say I wasn't treated well at the matches; I stated, in so many words, that I wasn't a fan of the drama. Various individuals/groups seemed to find it really easy and somehow satisfying to speak ill of other individuals/groups and I personally find that very hard to trust. I also see it played out on the BR forums, which aren't welcoming to new/inexperienced BR shooters. Too many remarks/comments are veiled in arrogance and some don't actually bother to veil the arrogance at all. I couple this activity with the outright conjecture involved in most technical discussions and have chosen to step back from the BR forums and approach BR my own way.

I get what you're saying about dealing with ambient conditions and this is where I struggle with the "demands" of BR. These ambient conditions are the same for all disciplines of shooting and experience is the greatest of all tools when it comes to a higher level of performance, not gear. When I hear/read comments as I've read here about Vudoo platforms not being up to par for BR shooting, it's possibly true in some areas of platform execution (stock type, bedding, tuner, etc), but people that purchase a Vudoo aren't experienced BR shooters and aren't looking for certain refinements in execution of the platform itself. From a design standpoint, the Vudoo action is designed and made just as well and in some cases better based on the BR actions I've looked at. This is the area where it's important to keep the discussion relevant, as most BR shooters making such comments haven't actually seen or shot a Vudoo but choose to speak factually without having any facts....clearly comparing apples to oranges.

What you're saying about laying down a fresh wax track makes perfect sense now, but wasn't the explanation I received at one of the matches I attended. Not sure if I asked someone lacking experience as it's possible he may have been doing it without really knowing why. I appreciate you explaining that, as I generally don't clean a barrel until accuracy falls off, around the 2000 round mark depending on where I've been shooting.

I fully intend to participate in BR. I've developed an action specific to the discipline and the rifles themselves will be built differently than our repeaters. I've also developed my own trigger within direct collaboration with Flavio Fare (part of the design is mine, other parts are mechanisms he was already using). I'm testing various barrel designs, none of them button, and the results I'm seeing are quite interesting and the coolest thing is, there's actual data. There's also a lot of interest in F-Class which I believe I'm more interested in.

Thanks again TKH, I appreciate you taking the time to offer a perspective that's easy to latch on to.

MB
Click to expand...

" I generally don't clean a barrel until accuracy falls off, around the 2000 round mark depending on where I've been shooting."

Most bench rest barrels are chambered short, meaning there will be from .100 to .200 bullet jam into the lands. This means our barrels tend to build a carbon ring at the mouth of the lead rather quickly.
Many can only shoot 150-200 rounds before this carbon ring starts to build, starts to resize bullets, and makes bolt closing hard. Therefore we clean to remove this carbon ring often.

We have also experimented with various twist rates. Slow twist, fast twist, gain twist, etc. etc. No one I know of found the panacea.

In general I learned fast twist, below 15 per inch doesn't make better accuracy, slow twist above 17 can shoot killer in hot humid conditions. There was a time I carried different twist barrels to a match. When the temp got above 90 I would go to my killer 17.5 twist. For awhile I thought I was doing something but after two years of data turns out I didn't really gain anything. But when I was doing it I felt good about it.

I do not want to discourage you from experimenting. You may find something we overlooked. But I would suggest there may be better areas to spend resources.

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
" I generally don't clean a barrel until accuracy falls off, around the 2000 round mark depending on where I've been shooting."

Most bench rest barrels are chambered short, meaning there will be from .100 to .200 bullet jam into the lands. This means our barrels tend to build a carbon ring at the mouth of the lead rather quickly.
Many can only shoot 150-200 rounds before this carbon ring starts to build, starts to resize bullets, and makes bolt closing hard. Therefore we clean to remove this carbon ring often.

We have also experimented with various twist rates. Slow twist, fast twist, gain twist, etc. etc. No one I know of found the panacea.

In general I learned fast twist, below 15 per inch doesn't make better accuracy, slow twist above 17 can shoot killer in hot humid conditions. There was a time I carried different twist barrels to a match. When the temp got above 90 I would go to my killer 17.5 twist. For awhile I thought I was doing something but after two years of data turns out I didn't really gain anything. But when I was doing it I felt good about it.

I do not want to discourage you from experimenting. You may find something we overlooked. But I would suggest there may be better areas to spend resources.

TKH
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense on the carbon ring....thanks.

Originally, I also found faster twist barrels not performing well but I also found a correlation of twist to length based on an increase in angular velocity. When I increased the length of the faster twist barrels, they really woke up in an impressive way. When looking at TOF to calculate BC, there's a clear improvement. Doing the math on BC relative to twist using the current bullet designs, you're able to tap into roughly 70% of the published BC in a 16 twist barrel. Doing the math backwards and comparing TOF of 16 twist to the faster twist I'm testing, I'm able to calculate and see physical results that match and use all of the available BC. Does this mean anything to BR? I'm quite sure it does given the struggle with ambient conditions.

I believe there's tons more to learn on many subjects within rimfire that have historically been tested by many and resulted in books on the subject. There's a considerable amount of anecdotal info and choosing to be skeptical has allowed me to serve this community well.

Thanks TKH,
MB
 
...."Many can only shoot 150-200 rounds before this carbon ring starts to build"

Tony, its actually less rounds than that!

We have a product that we have sold for many years that totally prevents that lead / carbon ring from forming. In fact one of the early rimfire benchrest shooters who is also a retired engineer and a long time assistant to one one of the legendary barrel makers called me one afternoon while I was at our rifle range testing a new small caliber wildcat. He went on and on about this lead ring problem and had tried many different products to prevent it with no success. I really wanted to keep shooting one of my new hot wildcats and truthfully just wanted to get him off the phone! Out of desperation I said tell you what I'll send you some of our super duper bullet lube and he grumbled and cussed a little but finally hug up. Then one weekend my wife and I were gone but returned home to find several messages for me to call him right away! So I did, thinking something awful happened to him and when he answered he said two things....BOY ....( i was a lot younger back then...lol..and that's how he always addressed me....you know those grumpy old benchrest shooters..!) you have done something no one in almost a hundred years has ever done...I said whats that as I had no clue what he was talking about ...and he said your product totally prevents the lead ring from forming! I said (because at that time I didn't shoot 22 rimfires much except for squirrel hunting) what lead ring? He explained it all to me in very great detail.... in fact I published his articles in our magazine Small Caliber News. The second thing he told me was that if all the 22 rimfire match ammo companies ( and he knew all of them very well..trust me!) had any brains they would be at your doorstep with their attorneys tomorrow morning! I'm still waiting.......i can tell you this, he is correct as it is all preventable with our product. BTW...All his testing was with his 22 rimfire custom built rail gun in his own tunnel using a very expensive modern bore scope!

On a little side note, I got a call a few years back from a air gun shooter. He went on to tell me he had just won the world airgun championship and his friend placed forth using our product! I said I didn't think airguns has leading problems? He said they sure do but there is absolutely none using your product and at the end of the day we were the only two with clean hands! Interesting so now I coat my precision pellets too!

High Noon
 
Makes me think you're talking about Frank T back in the day?

I suspect you're going to be getting a lot of questions about your product shortly. LOL

Landy
 
Mike,
I would absolutely agree with what Tony has told you. Should you not know, he is not only an extremely accomplished shooter but a pretty fair builder in his own right and one of the few no BS and knowledgeable guys that will be on a forum.
FWIW with many if not most traditional configuration barrels ( usually typical lands/grooves, not MI) we have seen detrimental throat carbon build in as little as 100+ rounds, especially in new blanks that are not well seasoned yet. As Tony said, most(from what I have seen) BR guys employ cleaning usually after a single card. A well known builder once stated "I can repeat clean" .
All these guys that preach non cleaning until accuracy falls off, sounds simple until you ask if it happens in the middle of a big match.
A good, match quality, SS barrel is likely always going to perform as good as it can starting from clean metal after a few shots lay down fresh, warm lube. This proved time and again from my long term smith that has built many national champ, world record guns and probably the best IR sporters money can buy. That is what I'd call the high water mark regarding "demands" so to speak.
I would leave you with one final thought.
Coming to market with a BR entry, you would be greatly aided by getting one in an accomplished competitors hands. Somebody versed in shooting accomplishment but, as important, versed in top level ammo selection, tuning, as well as proper maintenance of the platform. I suspect honest, reliable data can only help development progress.

Best,
Tim
 
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tim said:
Mike,
I would absolutely agree with what Tony has told you. Should you not know, he is not only an extremely accomplished shooter but a pretty fair builder in his own right and one of the few no BS and knowledgeable guys that will be on a forum.
FWIW with many if not most traditional configuration barrels ( usually typical lands/grooves, not MI) we have seen detrimental throat carbon build in as little as 100+ rounds, especially in new blanks that are not well seasoned yet. As Tony said, most(from what I have seen) BR guys employ cleaning usually after a single card. A well known builder once stated "I can repeat clean" .
All these guys that preach non cleaning until accuracy falls off, sounds simple until you ask if it happens in the middle of a big match.
A good, match quality, SS barrel is likely always going to perform as good as it can starting from clean metal after a few shots lay down fresh, warm lube. This proved time and again from my long term smith that has built many national champ, world record guns and probably the best IR sporters money can buy. That is what I'd call the high water mark regarding "demands" so to speak.
I would leave you with one final thought.
Coming to market with a BR entry, you would be greatly aided by getting one in an accomplished competitors hands. Somebody versed in shooting accomplishment but, as important, versed in top level ammo selection, tuning, as well as proper maintenance of the platform. I suspect honest, reliable data can only help development progress.

Best,
Tim
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100% Tim and what Tony is saying certainly makes sense, he has my respect. Although my repeater chambers have a fair amount of engagement in the lands, they're not as tight as Tony has described, but my BR chamber is. If I've not appropriately communicated my appreciation for the sharing of info that's happening here, I'll reiterate that it's certainly appreciated and quite refreshing at the same time. I'm trying to be very careful because I don't want to come across the wrong way.

Thanks again Tim,
MB
 
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Yes SPL is still available!

Hi Joe,

Yes SPL is still available at The Woodchuck Den Ph. 330.897.0614

I just came across our original ad in Small Caliber News summer of 2001 which is the same issue Frank Tirrell did his fantastic article on eliminating the lead ring using SPL coating on 22 rimfires! ( Those SCN issues featuring Franks writings are still available) and interesting the price of SPL is still the same $12.95 ...may have to change that ...lol

I have never pushed it but continue to sell it to precision centerfire shooters, rimfire benchrest shooters, long range lead bullet shooters and the competitive airgun shooters! We also sell it to the common shooter looking to improve their rifles performance and help extend barrel life. Btw..for almost two decades without one complaint! It works...

Todd

The Woodchuck Den Inc.
330.897.0614
www.woodchuckden.com
 
High Noon said:
Hi Joe,

Yes SPL is still available at The Woodchuck Den Ph. 330.897.0614

I just came across our original ad in Small Caliber News summer of 2001 which is the same issue Frank Tirrell did his fantastic article on eliminating the lead ring using SPL coating on 22 rimfires! ( Those SCN issues featuring Franks writings are still available) and interesting the price of SPL is still the same $12.95 ...may have to change that ...lol

I have never pushed it but continue to sell it to precision centerfire shooters, rimfire benchrest shooters, long range lead bullet shooters and the competitive airgun shooters! We also sell it to the common shooter looking to improve their rifles performance and help extend barrel life. Btw..for almost two decades without one complaint! It works...

Todd

The Woodchuck Den Inc.
330.897.0614
www.woodchuckden.com
Click to expand...

Todd,

I clicked on your site in order to find out more about your product but there’s not much there. Is there a website listing it with more information?
 
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