vertical hold on crosswind

B

bagul

Guest
Does anybody know of a program or any emphirical data on the ammount vertical hold on cross winds? I'm sometimes hunt doves at 100 meters(acurately measured range) and wonder if my misses could be vertical hold due to cross wind. doves are big targets at 100 meters but i like to avoid near misses. Balistic programs i know gives eerily accurate horizontal hold but nothing on verticals. thanks in advance.:)
 
I shoot a sport called 22 Benchrest Silhouette and one of the ranges we shoot at is 100 meters. Here is a chart that I created in order to know the vertical component of the wind.
100Meters.jpg


The X axis is the horizontal hold off and the Y axis is my scope settings. The brown vertical line is a zero hold off and I would use a scope setting of 1.7.6. If I had to hold 2 inches to the right, my scope setting would be about 1.7.1 or five 1/8 minute clicks less. If I had to hold 3.375 inches to the left, I would use a scope setting of 2.0.0 or ten 1/8 minute clicks more. The red dots are data points I have collected to create the graph and each horizontal green line represents one eighth minute click

Please bear in mind that this is with my rifle and my ammo and I don't know what the wind is for a two inch right hold. We use a piece of surveyor's tape at each berm and I judge the horizontal hold off by the angle of the tape.
 
OK, I may show how dumb I really am.

But,

I know absolutely nothing about shotgunning other than a little hunting with one.

We get vertical component on a crosswind in our rifles due to the spinning of the bullet.

Utilizing a shotgun shooting shot, there is no spinning of the shot, RIGHT?

So a crosswind should not have any influence on vertical or horizontal component in a shotgun shooting shot. Right?

Doves at 100 meters? I guess I need what you are using?

Charlie
 
I'm sure that is a legal Rock Dove (pigeon) that he is plinking.
 
Shot pellets in the wind

Charlie:

Wind does effect shot pellets, and the pattern of the pellets. Mostly you are correct that pellets do not come out of the wad spinning, although some wads are designed to spin the wad mass for better patterning.

That said, the pellets are "rolling" when they exit the wad, and to a small extent the Bernouli effect comes into play, but not to the extent exhibited by rapidly rotating rifled bullets. Most shot gunners do allow for windage, when winds are stiff, mostly for drift L to R, or R to L, or for drop into a head wind, or rise from a tail wind. The impact of the wind is straight forward: pushes the pattern left or right in cross winds. In head and tail winds, the velocity is effectied + or -.

Needless to say, shotgunning (usually) involves a moving target. If shooting clays, the clay birds are really effected by winds, and most of your attention is focused on figuring out what the wind will do to the bird. In crossing shots and straight away shots, a strong head wind, into the flight of a clay, will cause it to rapidly rise, float, or even stall before a rapid drop. A strong tail wind can cause a clay to initially rapidly drop a bit, and then follow a rapid flat flight line.

In the shot gunning world, as you probably know, patterning the gun is the first order of business, before you can start playing with "Kentucky Windage".

A shot gun creates a 3-D pattern, not a 2 - D pattern, as in rifle shooting. You can find a good discussion on the subject at:
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/patterning.html

Hope you enjoy the web content. Best wishes to you for good shooting, Doug Miller
 
Is the Rock Dove found in the Philippines?

Oh . . . yes I guess it is:

According to the Wikipedia:
"Originally found in Europe, North Africa, and western Asia . . . the Rock Pigeon has been introduced to cities around the world".

So: Bagul. How is this live pigion game shot over there at 100 meters. Are the birds released, and shot on the fly with a shotgun? Are they tied down, and shot with a rimfire? Standing or Benchrest?

My "trick" for beating the drift caused by right hand bullet spin is to "try" to determine the wind speed. And: "Guess" at how far the bullet will drift at that speed. In a wind from the left, hold into the wind that amount and hold "UP" about 25% of that hold-off. With a wind from the right, hold into the wind that amount and hold "DOWN" about 25% of that hold off.

This graphic might help with seeing the relationship:
Bernoulli.jpg


You can get the horizontal wind drift from a ballistic computer program, but I have not seen one that will give the vertical component caused by right hand bullet spin.
 
Simple Diagram

Joe,

The simple daigram you supplied is great, I hope it is accurate, as it easily gives some idea of what the wind does as we usually blame the wind for that stray bullet:eek:
 
Reply to Markus Feldman

Markus Feldmann
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Doug,

very interesting for me, i must it read tomorow

Markus

www.br50.com or www.benchrestschiessen.de
=================
Markus:

Guess Got und guten Tag Herr Markus Feldman, Leider mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht. Entschlugen sie mir bitte.

Auf gut Glick mit der Lesen. Es ist sehr interesant.

I habe ihres Bilt am http://www.br50.com/ geschaunen ? (oder ist es angeschauen?? ... weider entschulgen sie, mein sehr schlechtes Deutsch.

Sie werden Westfallen Meister in 2008 .... sehr sehr gut. Auch sie werden in der Europameisterschaften sein !! Werden sie auch in dir erste Rimfire Weltschaft in Milan?

Servous and weidersehen, Doug Miller
 
Markus Feldmann
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Doug,

very interesting for me, i must it read tomorow

Markus

www.br50.com or www.benchrestschiessen.de
=================
Markus:

Guess Got und guten Tag Herr Markus Feldman, Leider mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht. Entschlugen sie mir bitte.

Auf gut Glick mit der Lesen. Es ist sehr interesant.

I habe ihres Bilt am http://www.br50.com/ geschaunen ? (oder ist es angeschauen?? ... weider entschulgen sie, mein sehr schlechtes Deutsch.

Sie werden Westfallen Meister in 2008 .... sehr sehr gut. Auch sie werden in der Europameisterschaften sein !! Werden sie auch in dir erste Rimfire Weltschaft in Milan?

Servous and weidersehen, Doug Miller

Hallo Doug,
wo hast Du die Deutsche Sprache gelernt? Ich habe alles verstanden. Ich wäre froh wenn ich ohne Übersetzungsprogramm so gut Englisch könnte ;).
Ja ich werde bei der ersten Kleinkaliber (Rimfire) Weltmeisterschaft in Mailand dabei sein (ich freue mich schon :D).
Bist Du auch in Mailand dabei ?

(Ich habe mal in Deutsch geschrieben, ich denke du wirst es verstehen)

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Markus Feldmann
 
Reply to Markus Feldman ... press 1 for English

Guten Morgen und Tag Markus,
I war a studenten auf die Univeristat von Frieburg ... in neunzehn hundred zwei und sechtzig !! Jawohl, ich bin nur a bischen alt, nicht wahr? Bestimmt, ich habe leider meisten Deutsche vergisst. 46 Jahren mit ohne Deutsche, und mann vergisst sehr viel !! Aber meine Studenttagen sind noch nich vergessen.

Ich bleibte (wohnte) auf Schoenbergweb ... vielich 10 kilometer Sued auf Freiburg mit sehr sehr net Folken (Frau und Herr Leisburg ... er war ein Rechtsanwalt ... und a Weintrinker ... und "auf English: Wine Judge" ). Ich kann schon Deutsch lesen, aber screiben und sprechen ist jetzt sehr schwer.

Viel wuenschen fuer grosse kunst mit ihren Benchrest BR50 Schiessen! Sie sind ein Meister !!

Nein, ich wuensche nicht auf Mailand reisen. I glaube Fluegzueg Reissen ist leider noch nich fuer Mensch (auf English ... a "civilized process"). Das ist sehr leider, und est tut mir leid.

Auch mit sehr fruendlichen Gruessen (est gibt garn keines Umlaut auf mein KB ... sie verstehen das hoeffinlich.), Doug Miller, in der Vereingen Stadten (Pennsylvania)
======
Hallo Doug,
wo hast Du die Deutsche Sprache gelernt? Ich habe alles verstanden. Ich wäre froh wenn ich ohne Übersetzungsprogramm so gut Englisch könnte .
Ja ich werde bei der ersten Kleinkaliber (Rimfire) Weltmeisterschaft in Mailand dabei sein (ich freue mich schon ).
Bist Du auch in Mailand dabei ?

(Ich habe mal in Deutsch geschrieben, ich denke du wirst es verstehen)

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Markus Feldmann
===========
 
Thanks Joe,
I see you updated your Wind Diagram - Great!
Any chance you could send me this updated version to put my my website?
The only one I had must of been a miss print and I spent 2 hours moving the 9:00 wind bullet hole from 2:00 to 4:00.
 
Green Card

Ken,

The Green Card is up to date. INS was pretty decent about it.

Seriously, isn't it amazing that one of the German National Team in Milan is actively viewing this site? Check out their site at www.br50.com and you'll see his picture along with his gear. Also there is a photo of the EU RimFire target with the 30 targets per board.

He was interested in the US information on wind influence, and I hoped a little "native" chat would make him feel really welcome.

I suspect he'll be an excellent, and very tough competitor. He also seems to be a real gentleman, and suspect he'll make a lot of friends at the World Event.

Bet all attending will have a good and rewarding time in Milan.

You and Cherie keep up the great shooting. Hope to see you soon. Best wishes, Doug
 
The Wind Graphic . . .

Hello Doug:

Yes, I updated my wind graphic two years year. The one you have is probably 6 years old. You have my permissio to use this new one on your website.

I would need your e-mail address to send the graphic to you as an attachment. Can't seem to manage attachments by private message.

Joe Haller :)
 
Huge Sunshade .. .by Shorty

Shorty,

Been a long time since I've seen a "full barrel" sun shade. "Mirage killer" for the indoor shooting? Seems a little fan would work better. Also thought those huge shades could create a whole new set of barrel harmonics. Whatever, it looks a great deal like an indoor range here in the States. Let's check up and see how Markus does at the World Championship. His club sure has a well maintained web site. Doug
 
Been a long time since I've seen a "full barrel" sun shade. Doug

I think also it brings nothing and is only for the eye
But everyone should do what he wants :D:D:D

Or the shooter has wind flags hidden in the pipe ;)

Markus
 
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