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VarmintGuy
Guest
I wanted closure for this Barnes Varmint Grenade situation.
I have already decided they would NOT be worth the trouble for my needs, but I wanted to know how the Barnes folks go about informing their customers and potential customers about the need for "special" twist rates in their Rifles to attain stability with their products.
I did NOT drive all the way to Kalifornicopia to get a Barnes 2,008 catalog but I did drive quite a ways!
I turned my 2,008 Barnes hard copy, glossy catalog to the full page dedicated to the attributes of the Varmint Grenade bullets.
No where on that page does there appear a notification nor a warning that their Varmint Grenades need special twist rates!
Nor is there a warning visible on the green Varmint Grenade box that is pictured on that page!
Hmmm....!
Then I go back to the free DVD that I obtained from a sportshop regarding Barnes bullets and their attributes some time ago.
I do NOT recall that video mentioning the special twist rates needed for their Varmint Grenade line of bullets!
Granted the folks in Kalifornicopia voted themselves into this mess - this need for leadless projectiles - and it appears the nice folks at Barnes are trying to keep the Kalifornicopians shooting - BUT I feel they should be a little more "up front" with people contemplating buying their bullets!
Case closed.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I have already decided they would NOT be worth the trouble for my needs, but I wanted to know how the Barnes folks go about informing their customers and potential customers about the need for "special" twist rates in their Rifles to attain stability with their products.
I did NOT drive all the way to Kalifornicopia to get a Barnes 2,008 catalog but I did drive quite a ways!
I turned my 2,008 Barnes hard copy, glossy catalog to the full page dedicated to the attributes of the Varmint Grenade bullets.
No where on that page does there appear a notification nor a warning that their Varmint Grenades need special twist rates!
Nor is there a warning visible on the green Varmint Grenade box that is pictured on that page!
Hmmm....!
Then I go back to the free DVD that I obtained from a sportshop regarding Barnes bullets and their attributes some time ago.
I do NOT recall that video mentioning the special twist rates needed for their Varmint Grenade line of bullets!
Granted the folks in Kalifornicopia voted themselves into this mess - this need for leadless projectiles - and it appears the nice folks at Barnes are trying to keep the Kalifornicopians shooting - BUT I feel they should be a little more "up front" with people contemplating buying their bullets!
Case closed.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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rrendina
Guest
Does Sierra and other bullet manufactures place warnings about twist rates on the box of their .224" 70, 80, 90 gr, VLD bullets? No, it's in the Sierra loading manual, exactly where Barns has their warnings.
I am not a fan of the Varmint Grenades, that being said I am thankful someone is producing bullets I can use in SO Cal for varmint hunting.
Also, most loaders would not think about the length of the bullet rather than load for the weight. If you do, you get an unstabilized bullet and the lack of accuracy that follows.
So where is the the big crime Barnes has committed here? How has anyone here been harmed by the twist rate recommendations?
Much fuss over nothing?
I am not a fan of the Varmint Grenades, that being said I am thankful someone is producing bullets I can use in SO Cal for varmint hunting.
Also, most loaders would not think about the length of the bullet rather than load for the weight. If you do, you get an unstabilized bullet and the lack of accuracy that follows.
So where is the the big crime Barnes has committed here? How has anyone here been harmed by the twist rate recommendations?
Much fuss over nothing?
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Rrendina: No one said that Barnes was committing any type of "crime" except YOU!
And if YOU want to make EXCUSES for really poor and pathetic planning and public relations on behalf of the Barnes bullet people - be MY guest!
Over-looking just the exact bizarre and wasteful outcome that the original poster in this thread has NO rational basis!
That poster suffered at the hands of the Barnes people!
PERIOD!
Again OVER-LOOK it if YOU wish but I won't!
I will repeat - "I have NEVER had trouble with a 50 grain bullet of any manufacture KEYHOLING in any of my many 22-250's"! EVER.
Of WHAT use is a Barnes bullet that KEYHOLES in one of the most popular and common Rifles to be had?
The Barnes folks have tried to fill a niche and that is commendable - but to do so in such a poorly thought through manner is a sign of seriously poor judgement.
Again "no crime" - just poorly thought through planning and policy - bordering on deceit!
In order to go along with your RATIONALIZATIONS a person would HAVE TO completely ignore the obvious - "the obvious" demonstrated by the original posters trials and tribulations with the Varmint Grenades keyholing in his common Rifle.
I am not willing to ignore that.
Let me ask you directly there rrendina - HOW do you ratinionalize away the FACT that the Barnes people did not mention once - in any way, shape or form anywhere in their 2,008 catalog that you need special twist rates in your Rifle to stabilize this line of Barnes bullets???
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
And if YOU want to make EXCUSES for really poor and pathetic planning and public relations on behalf of the Barnes bullet people - be MY guest!
Over-looking just the exact bizarre and wasteful outcome that the original poster in this thread has NO rational basis!
That poster suffered at the hands of the Barnes people!
PERIOD!
Again OVER-LOOK it if YOU wish but I won't!
I will repeat - "I have NEVER had trouble with a 50 grain bullet of any manufacture KEYHOLING in any of my many 22-250's"! EVER.
Of WHAT use is a Barnes bullet that KEYHOLES in one of the most popular and common Rifles to be had?
The Barnes folks have tried to fill a niche and that is commendable - but to do so in such a poorly thought through manner is a sign of seriously poor judgement.
Again "no crime" - just poorly thought through planning and policy - bordering on deceit!
In order to go along with your RATIONALIZATIONS a person would HAVE TO completely ignore the obvious - "the obvious" demonstrated by the original posters trials and tribulations with the Varmint Grenades keyholing in his common Rifle.
I am not willing to ignore that.
Let me ask you directly there rrendina - HOW do you ratinionalize away the FACT that the Barnes people did not mention once - in any way, shape or form anywhere in their 2,008 catalog that you need special twist rates in your Rifle to stabilize this line of Barnes bullets???
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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rrendina
Guest
Varmint Guy, I did not say they committed a crime, look at the post, I ask where is the crime they committed?
I don't have the catalog but the website clearly states the recommended twist rate, have a look: http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/varmint-grenade/
Everyone I know that has had to load the Barnes VG's was aware of the twist rate prior to purchasing the bullets. As stated prior, I don't care for the VG's, and I didn't appreciate the way Barns threw us here in California under the buss with there miss information to our legislature, that contributed to the led ban that we are complying with now.
The original poster assumed the bullets would work in his rifle. Only after he loaded and found out he had problems did he begin his research. Much advice was given, some better than others. I don't think he has yet discovered what twist his rifle is, but he did mention he was going to load the 36 gr and give them a try. I hope he posts the results. I wish him luck.
I don't have the catalog but the website clearly states the recommended twist rate, have a look: http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/varmint-grenade/
Everyone I know that has had to load the Barnes VG's was aware of the twist rate prior to purchasing the bullets. As stated prior, I don't care for the VG's, and I didn't appreciate the way Barns threw us here in California under the buss with there miss information to our legislature, that contributed to the led ban that we are complying with now.
The original poster assumed the bullets would work in his rifle. Only after he loaded and found out he had problems did he begin his research. Much advice was given, some better than others. I don't think he has yet discovered what twist his rifle is, but he did mention he was going to load the 36 gr and give them a try. I hope he posts the results. I wish him luck.
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Larry Elliott
Guest
Just looked on the Midsouth Shooters Supply website and when I finally found the 50 gr Barnes Varmint Grenades the website clearly shows that these bullets require a minimum 1 in 9" twist. In fact they listed faster than "normal" twist rates for many of the Barnes no lead bullets because they're all longer than a lead cored bullet. The next time I'm out looking around I might see if anybody has any of the 50 gr VG's to check the label.
Maybe they got complaints, and added a label warning.
Maybe they got complaints, and added a label warning.
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Rredina: AGAIN - YOU are the one mentioning crimes!
No one else.
I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets.
And again I ask, how and then WHY do you rationalize shortcomings of the Barnes folks in adequately describing to potential buyers of their bullet the need for special twist rates.
I told you of the lack of "NOTIFICATION" I have found, and exactly where it was lacking.
Now, AGAIN I ask of you, will you please tell me how YOU rationalize this away?
Everyone YOU know, MAY, be aware of the specialized twist rate requirement - but I did not know that and I watched the Barnes video and I did not see it in their catalog and I did not see it on the 20 and 22 caliber projectiles AND the original poster was obviously not aware of it - so why do YOU try to rationalize away this poor merchandising by the Barnes folks?
Are YOU affiliated with the Barnes people - even though you don't use their products?
Mr. Elliott correctly implies that EVERY box of Barnes bullets that requires a special (out of the norm!) twist rate should have a WARNING on the box!
And I agree with that!
And I know for a fact, that is NOT the case.
Shooters don't normally take a computer with them to the sport shop when they want to buy some bullets - so they can look up the "Midway USA" site for "warnings", that rationalization of yours is also defunct!
IF you are aware of the Barnes folks somehow making things more difficult for shooters in Kalifornicopia then why in the world man, would you try to rationalize anything on their behalf???
Wow - you take the cake!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
No one else.
I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets.
And again I ask, how and then WHY do you rationalize shortcomings of the Barnes folks in adequately describing to potential buyers of their bullet the need for special twist rates.
I told you of the lack of "NOTIFICATION" I have found, and exactly where it was lacking.
Now, AGAIN I ask of you, will you please tell me how YOU rationalize this away?
Everyone YOU know, MAY, be aware of the specialized twist rate requirement - but I did not know that and I watched the Barnes video and I did not see it in their catalog and I did not see it on the 20 and 22 caliber projectiles AND the original poster was obviously not aware of it - so why do YOU try to rationalize away this poor merchandising by the Barnes folks?
Are YOU affiliated with the Barnes people - even though you don't use their products?
Mr. Elliott correctly implies that EVERY box of Barnes bullets that requires a special (out of the norm!) twist rate should have a WARNING on the box!
And I agree with that!
And I know for a fact, that is NOT the case.
Shooters don't normally take a computer with them to the sport shop when they want to buy some bullets - so they can look up the "Midway USA" site for "warnings", that rationalization of yours is also defunct!
IF you are aware of the Barnes folks somehow making things more difficult for shooters in Kalifornicopia then why in the world man, would you try to rationalize anything on their behalf???
Wow - you take the cake!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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rrendina
Guest
You enjoy attacking California assuming all the shooters here voted for the liberals and that couldn't be farther than the truth.
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Redina: I don't smoke!
So don't get off in that tangental direction - that would be as useless as you wondering what crime the Barnes folks have committed.
By the way - not only myself but countless millions of other sportsmen don't want what you allow to go on in Kalifornicopia to SPREAD!
Don't try to blame me for your collective Kalifornicopia shortcomings.
The problem is with YOU, trying, to rationalize the Barnes folks manufacturing a 50 grain bullet in 22 caliber that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory twist barrels 22 caliber barrels!
I won't let you get away with that kind of ridiculousness!
It appears you are now convinced there is no crime committed by the Barnes folks - right!
Well hooray for you - then don't mention them being accused of any crimes again.
Why did you bring it up in the first place?
You are trying to defend yourself and your ridiculous rationalizations by burping up Red Herrings?
Thats pointless and puzzling.
What I do accuse them of, I'll repeat for you, and ask AGAIN, why are you standing up for them - "I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets".
No crimes, just really poor merchandising and planning - bordering on the deceitful, I will add.
You post - "I am not sticking up for Barns (sp) any more than I am sticking up for the other company's that share the EXACT business practices".
I simply must ask you what "other company's" make a 22 caliber 50 grain bullet that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory 22 caliber barrels? And then NOT informing the public of special needs with this bullet!
And instead of answering this question directly I am predicting you will wander off in another useless tangental bout of bizzarreness!
You've already done it rredin you have "taken the cake" - don't try for the booby prize now!
Barnes has committed a faux pas with the 50 grain Varmint Grenades and no amount of witless rationalization will undo that.
The only remedy is for the Barnes people to try to convince folks like the original poster to re-barrel their Rifles so they can keep using these difficult to stabilize bullets!
Fat chance of that!
Don't you think the Barnes folks should publish the special twist rates needed in their OWN catalog?
Again, I commend the Barnes folks for TRYING to fill a niche for you Kalifornicopians its just that they fell quite a bit short in informing the shooting public regarding the "special needs" in this line of bullets.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
So don't get off in that tangental direction - that would be as useless as you wondering what crime the Barnes folks have committed.
By the way - not only myself but countless millions of other sportsmen don't want what you allow to go on in Kalifornicopia to SPREAD!
Don't try to blame me for your collective Kalifornicopia shortcomings.
The problem is with YOU, trying, to rationalize the Barnes folks manufacturing a 50 grain bullet in 22 caliber that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory twist barrels 22 caliber barrels!
I won't let you get away with that kind of ridiculousness!
It appears you are now convinced there is no crime committed by the Barnes folks - right!
Well hooray for you - then don't mention them being accused of any crimes again.
Why did you bring it up in the first place?
You are trying to defend yourself and your ridiculous rationalizations by burping up Red Herrings?
Thats pointless and puzzling.
What I do accuse them of, I'll repeat for you, and ask AGAIN, why are you standing up for them - "I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets".
No crimes, just really poor merchandising and planning - bordering on the deceitful, I will add.
You post - "I am not sticking up for Barns (sp) any more than I am sticking up for the other company's that share the EXACT business practices".
I simply must ask you what "other company's" make a 22 caliber 50 grain bullet that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory 22 caliber barrels? And then NOT informing the public of special needs with this bullet!
And instead of answering this question directly I am predicting you will wander off in another useless tangental bout of bizzarreness!
You've already done it rredin you have "taken the cake" - don't try for the booby prize now!
Barnes has committed a faux pas with the 50 grain Varmint Grenades and no amount of witless rationalization will undo that.
The only remedy is for the Barnes people to try to convince folks like the original poster to re-barrel their Rifles so they can keep using these difficult to stabilize bullets!
Fat chance of that!
Don't you think the Barnes folks should publish the special twist rates needed in their OWN catalog?
Again, I commend the Barnes folks for TRYING to fill a niche for you Kalifornicopians its just that they fell quite a bit short in informing the shooting public regarding the "special needs" in this line of bullets.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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rrendina
Guest
You have been added to the list of people I pray for.
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savage12LRPV
Guest
![downsized_0202091940[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1662-1d2d41b1c9578fdc96f88282ec381ee9.jpg)
![downsized_0202091942[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1663-51a23055a8adf1f275d1970128805c26.jpg)
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rrendina
Guest
Interesting 
Is that something new or have they always had the twist rate on the 50 grain .224 box?
Is that something new or have they always had the twist rate on the 50 grain .224 box?
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savage12LRPV
Guest
its not new, that box is from when they came out, so everyone crying about
it just needs to look at the box and the new boxes are the same.
i love them and they shoot great out of my savage and my friends rock riv.
PEOPLE JUST NEED TO READ THE BOX THATS ALL?
it just needs to look at the box and the new boxes are the same.
i love them and they shoot great out of my savage and my friends rock riv.
PEOPLE JUST NEED TO READ THE BOX THATS ALL?
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savage12LRPV
Guest
![downsized_0202092047[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1664-82c68af3ad1f0ffb7818e2dba9cfff90.jpg)
![downsized_0202092048[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1665-f1455938e8c33c15bb325a6664c25e7a.jpg)
![downsized_0202092048a[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1666-5c8372ccec4fdd9aec999e82ef1af9aa.jpg)
![downsized_0202092049[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/1/1667-21ecd36244e532fea5d9e10296723331.jpg)
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rrendina
Guest
Before I started to load the VG's I contacted Barnes and spoke to a customer service guy, he put me on to the 36 grainer's and explained why the 50's wouldn't work in my rifle. I haven't seen a box of the 50's until your post 12LRVP, thanks for the visual.
But I am not the one complaining about the warning on the box either.
Let me quote VarmintGuy:
Enough, I have a headache
But I am not the one complaining about the warning on the box either.
Let me quote VarmintGuy:
and
and
and
Enough, I have a headache
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savage12LRPV
Guest
I was not trying to be mean or a jerk, just trying to help cause i shoot the heavy stuff and just wanted the facts out there, the only thing that i shoot that does not have a recomendation is nosler but its an 80 gr. custom comp and i think it shoots the best out of a 1:7 twist. rrendina if you have questions on the 223 stuff ask cause i shoot it way to much and almost everything i have is 223 or 556 other than my 30-30 pistol and my 44 rem mag pistol by TC and love them for hog hunting.
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rrendina
Guest
Thanks for the offer. I just loaded a few hundred rounds of the 36 gr VG's for the .223 just to be in compliance. I obtained the data from the Barnes reloading manual. I was not looking for single hole accuracy out of these due to the rifle they will be fired in but they did group 1" @100 yards, that was better than I expected. This rifle had a 1 in 9 twist so I can fire the longer bullets in it but I don't think I'll bother right now, have to wait and see how this no led thing plays out.
BTW, today I received my order of Berger .224" 55gr Moly bullets. I had to laugh, right on the box, "For 1 in 14 twist or faster"
BTW, today I received my order of Berger .224" 55gr Moly bullets. I had to laugh, right on the box, "For 1 in 14 twist or faster"
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Rredina: Well it looks like you have lost the argument as you have now resorted to the immature tactic of calling names!
And I quote your post:
VarmintGuy, "you have been added to the list of people I pray for.
YOU IDIOT "!
Now calling me an idiot does not solve this situation!
And you calling me an idiot is beneath the dignity of this board!
I suggest you apologize!
Back to the situation of Barnes inadequacy in warning folks about the special needs of their bullets!
Aren't most factory Rifles that shoot 22 caliber bullets capable of stabilizing your 55 grain Berger bullets - in other words AREN'T MOST FACTORY RIFLES in caliber 22-250 Remington using twists of 1 in 14"?
I checked the Sako site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked the Ruger site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked most of the Remington site and all I could find there was 1 in 14" twist in their 22-250 Rifles!
Well it was nice of the Berger folks to "warn" everyone about the need to use their 55 grain bullets in 1 in 14" twist Rifles!
Duhh....
I went to Bergers website and they (like the Barnes folks catalog) had no "warning", warning people about any special needs with either of their two 55 grain 22 caliber offerings!
Nor their 50 grain offerings.
What does the rate of twist notification on a box of Berger bullets telling folks "in effect" to go ahead and use them in most all Rifles, have to do with the Barnes bullets needing special twist rate barrels to shoot a common bullet weight lest they "keyhole"?
SO - you had to CALL the Barnes folks to find out the 50 grain bullets wouldn't work in your Rifle - you, rredina, have MADE MY CASE!
Save your prayers and your name calling for your own personal needs!
I am doing just FINE without either of them!
Especially, don't demean the decorum of this site by calling other well intentioned posters who you can't keep up with, "idiots"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
And I quote your post:
VarmintGuy, "you have been added to the list of people I pray for.
YOU IDIOT "!
Now calling me an idiot does not solve this situation!
And you calling me an idiot is beneath the dignity of this board!
I suggest you apologize!
Back to the situation of Barnes inadequacy in warning folks about the special needs of their bullets!
Aren't most factory Rifles that shoot 22 caliber bullets capable of stabilizing your 55 grain Berger bullets - in other words AREN'T MOST FACTORY RIFLES in caliber 22-250 Remington using twists of 1 in 14"?
I checked the Sako site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked the Ruger site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked most of the Remington site and all I could find there was 1 in 14" twist in their 22-250 Rifles!
Well it was nice of the Berger folks to "warn" everyone about the need to use their 55 grain bullets in 1 in 14" twist Rifles!
Duhh....
I went to Bergers website and they (like the Barnes folks catalog) had no "warning", warning people about any special needs with either of their two 55 grain 22 caliber offerings!
Nor their 50 grain offerings.
What does the rate of twist notification on a box of Berger bullets telling folks "in effect" to go ahead and use them in most all Rifles, have to do with the Barnes bullets needing special twist rate barrels to shoot a common bullet weight lest they "keyhole"?
SO - you had to CALL the Barnes folks to find out the 50 grain bullets wouldn't work in your Rifle - you, rredina, have MADE MY CASE!
Save your prayers and your name calling for your own personal needs!
I am doing just FINE without either of them!
Especially, don't demean the decorum of this site by calling other well intentioned posters who you can't keep up with, "idiots"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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rrendina
Guest
If I give you a quarter will you go away?