Tunners Centerfire Vs Rimfire

J

JohnsonGunsmith

Guest
Ok tunners are a rimfire must have (is my understanding) in order to compete. In Centerfire guys are still playing with them and some good things have come from useing them but the majority still do not use them. The guys that do use them adjust them constantly with the changeing conditions etc. and my understanding is that rimfire guys set them then leave them alone. My question is why do you think rimfire has benefited so much from the use of them while centerfire has not. Do you believe as Mr. Calfee does that the adjusting and having a tunner that is too light has hurt the centerfire guys?
 
I think that the big difference is that the centerfire shooters can tailor their ammunituion to their rifles, by varying charge, bullet, seating depth, etc., while the rimfire communties is at the mercy of the ammo makers. We cannot change anything in our ammunition, therefore, we have to tune our rifles to the available ammunition, whereas the centerfire shooters can change their components around to match their rifles...

JMHO

Dave
 
I would agree completelythat this is true and I did ask my question wrong. What I really want to know is why do centerfire guys adjust and rimfire guys do not? I would think that it would work the same with either type of gun and the adjustments would not be needed in centerfire after you found your tune? Why do we adjust I have heard so we can leave the load the same and just turn the Tunner, but rimfire does not adjust the load and you guys stay in tune.
 
We really don't stay in tune. It just takes too much time and ammo at a match to search for a new tune. Some try without much success in my observation with the exception of a couple of guys that keep good notes and know with this temp/humidity they need this tuning change.
 
The shooter that has had the most success using a tuner for short range CF benchrest, Gene Buckys, does not change its setting during matches, or for that matter at all, after determining what he feels is the best setting during initial testing, for each new barrel. After that, he tunes conventionally. This is not to say that other shooters do not adjust, just that Gene has done very well doing it his way. Also, it should be pointed out that you can only hang so much weight on the front of a 10.5 # CF rifle, and still maintain the balance necessarry to its being shot free recoil, and that attempts to use a barrel contour similar to what works well with rimfire tuners, in conjunction with a heavier tuner have failed (10.5# CF benchrest rifle) . Of course heavier rifles have different realities, but in short range CF benchrest, if something does not work on a 10.5# rifle, it is pretty much useless, given that many shooters shoot one rife for LV, HV and Sporter. As I have said many times before, simply declaring that a thing will work, is no substitute for building a rifle that proves it.

Another thing that I have noticed is that not all shooters who post their opinions about CF tuners have used them, or if they have, thay may not have tried one for a particular application. I have used more than one design, for the application mentioned above. They are not the only way to shoot small, but IMO, everything else being equal, they are an advantage. Unfortunately, for me, rifle components cannot unpull a trigger when conditions have been misread or ignored. :D
 
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I gave up on CF tuners

I came to believe that the only way tuners work at peak performance on CF rifles is to keep moving them with the Temp/ humidity and I wasn't willing to put in the time to figure that out. I decided to simply find the tune my bare barrel likes most of the time and go with that. I shoot Score and pre-load and am not as driven to win all the time as I use to be.

As for Rimfire; I got involved again a couple of years ago after a long absence and have learned some things lately about my tune. For instance, I have three lots of ammo that work in my 10.5 lb Turbo / Rock Creek / Harrels/ Noodle. I found a day that was ideal for testing; very light air but enough to move flags and in one direction. I found that each of the three lots likes a little bit different Harrels setting; like 3 clicks for one lot and 7 clicks for another.

That said, I believe I can see my rife go out of tune as the temp comes up and humidity down. I am thinking that is why scores in the 3 gun or Unlimited in the morning are pretty good then go down hill in the afternoon. Not everybody's do but many do. I think the rifles just fall off tune slightly. The only way to know is to spend a day testing under match conditions. I felt the same was true the one time I shot in the Rock River Barn. The rifle's tune was moving around.

There are some weight limitations with 10.5 Rf rifles as well. If Calfee is right, I would really like to know the signs he sees to tell him the tuner needs more weight.
 
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The principle varience between the two may very well be in the dramatically different nature of barrel harmonics between CF and RF. That being said the best smiths that have ever laid hands on .22's would tell you once your barrel is tuned.... it's tuned, something I wholeheartedly believe and would tend to be supported by the current proliferation of great shooting sporters, none of which can incorporate changable tuning devises, but are, in fact, tuned.
 
I would never contradict the accepted truths relating to the tuners and rimfire, but I can tell you that what you have described in not the case in centerfire group. One either moves the tuner, or changes the loads, as conditions change. There are a few that preload for group matches, but although there have been some successes, the number of matches won this way is very small. I would suggest that these successes exist because the load was a good match for conditions, and that if the weather had not been as predictied, that the results would not have been the same. Of course if you wanted to demonstrate that what has evidently been accomplished in rimfire, a permanant tuner adjustment, that is appropriate for all conditions, shooting the same ammo, it would have to be actually done, and to this point, it has not been.
 
tim said:
The principle varience between the two may very well be in the dramatically different nature of barrel harmonics between CF and RF. That being said the best smiths that have ever laid hands on .22's would tell you once your barrel is tuned.... it's tuned, something I wholeheartedly believe and would tend to be supported by the current proliferation of great shooting sporters, none of which can incorporate changable tuning devises, but are, in fact, tuned.
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Tim,
Why is it that Smiths don't make the barrels for the Weight Class Rifles the same way they do Sporters or just put Sporter Barrels on Weight Class Rifles? If they can tune Sporters to shoot competatively, why should they not be able to do the same with the same style barrels for the Weight Class Rifles? I have seen a couple of them but they are the odd ones and have not been a revelation, that I have seen.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
Tim,
Why is it that Smiths don't make the barrels for the Weight Class Rifles the same way they do Sporters or just put Sporter Barrels on Weight Class Rifles? If they can tune Sporters to shoot competatively, why should they not be able to do the same with the same style barrels for the Weight Class Rifles? I have seen a couple of them but they are the odd ones and have not been a revelation, that I have seen.

Pete
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You're asking the wrong question, I believe, Peter. They don't do sporters that way, because they want to, they do so because they have to, given the one piece barrel/weight requirement. That barrel, may very well be on and off several times durring fitting adjusting the "lug" and/or the counterbore until an optimum is reached. You also get one shot, go to far, that bbl is done.If you left it up to them, barring rules, I suspect they all would tell you it's easier to simply clamp on a tuner and dial it in, given a choice.
 
tim said:
You're asking the wrong question, I believe, Peter. They don't do sporters that way, because they want to, they do so because they have to, given the one piece barrel/weight requirement. That barrel, may very well be on and off several times durring fitting adjusting the "lug" and/or the counterbore until an optimum is reached. You also get one shot, go to far, that bbl is done.If you left it up to them, barring rules, I suspect they all would tell you it's easier to simply clamp on a tuner and dial it in, given a choice.
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Somehow I knew I would ask the wrong question. Thanks for your answer.

Pete
 
JohnsonGunsmith said:
I would agree completelythat this is true and I did ask my question wrong. What I really want to know is why do centerfire guys adjust and rimfire guys do not? I would think that it would work the same with either type of gun and the adjustments would not be needed in centerfire after you found your tune? Why do we adjust I have heard so we can leave the load the same and just turn the Tunner, but rimfire does not adjust the load and you guys stay in tune.
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Not all RF shooters keep adjusting their tuners.. Once your barrel is tuned, it should shoot most, quality match ammo, pretty much the same. I know that when my gunsmith rebarrelled my 40X, he tested and tuned the rifle with Eley Match. He gave me the velocity and machine number, and I have not changed my tuner setting in a year and a half. It is still where my gunsmith set it...I am not saying that I will never have to change my tuner setting, but so far I have found ammo, in the range I was told, that shoots great.. I know a few shooters, Harry Deneen for one, that used to tune his rifle and tape the tuner and not change it for the whole year or more..

Dave
 
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Pete Wass said:
Somehow I knew I would ask the wrong question. Thanks for your answer.

Pete
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The point was that the easiest, most repeatable, solution is the simple clamp on adjustable tuner. I'd imagine it would be quite successfull to replicate a 10 1/2# version of a sporter, but why? Myself I'd prefer the option on adjustability of a Harrels type tuner.
 
I believe a tuner properly set on a CF rifle gives a wider tune range. Reading what Gene Bukys posted, I believe he gets a powder-bullet combo that works. He installs tuner and adjust it until he finds a setting that gives the widest tune range. I believe he said he may tweek his load a little, but doesn't touch his tuner.
With Gene's success I believe we need to follow his lead.
 
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