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mr. nobody
Guest
that last guy was using really hot ammo for sure
!! i had seen tha one before. i think tomc sent it to me about a year ago.
!! i had seen tha one before. i think tomc sent it to me about a year ago.
Bill Wynne
Active member
I don't know much more than you, mr. nobody, but I have bought ammo in the winter time that shoots great and in the summer it looses its fizz. This year I will test ammo for the winter and if it goes south in the hot summer, I will buy some more.
Just one other thing, If an ammo does not shoot well in my rifle, I have found no amount of tuning seems to help it. I could be wrong. I think we all are still learning.
Concho Bill
Just one other thing, If an ammo does not shoot well in my rifle, I have found no amount of tuning seems to help it. I could be wrong. I think we all are still learning.
Concho Bill
"Just one other thing, If an ammo does not shoot well in my rifle, I have found no amount of tuning seems to help it. I could be wrong. I think we all are still learning."
I agree with you on that one Bill. This Ammo thing is just about enough to drive one nutz in this game. I finally got some that was working pretty good in my ole 40X this year, but only have 6 boxes left now. When I tested some from the same machine, rated about the same speed, Eley, it wasn't even close. I want one of those non ammo sensitive rifles folks talk about
Les
I agree with you on that one Bill. This Ammo thing is just about enough to drive one nutz in this game. I finally got some that was working pretty good in my ole 40X this year, but only have 6 boxes left now. When I tested some from the same machine, rated about the same speed, Eley, it wasn't even close. I want one of those non ammo sensitive rifles folks talk about
Les
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mr. nobody
Guest
tuners won't make a lot of bad ammo better. it will make great ammo even better. i did have one test lot that when i was tuning i knew that it was going to hit to the left and high. it did it everytime. i used it anyway. in targetb 13 if you look at it the bullet that was highleft in the group was tennex 1059 speed. it was the one that always did go high left. that one was what made the group so big.
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pacecil
Guest
The idea that a tuner will "not make bad ammo better " does not make sense. What does make sense is that the effect of a tuner on accuracy is so slight that in poorly grouping ammo you could not detect the slight difference the tuner would make - or what makes more makes sense is that the shooter will not even want to "see" the difference. I suspect a tuner will have a per cent effect rather than a constant amount effect on all ammo, but this is something I've never been able to prove.
In any case mr nobody's noting that his tuner moved the poi with his "bad ammo" does not mean it wasn't making the bad ammo better. It just means it made the bad ammo group in a different place on the target. It appears he believes the tuner should make the bad (and thus different) group in the same position as his good ammo. If it doesn't then his conclusion is the tuner "has no effect on bad ammo".
Then let's look at what hi2utoo says: He says if he can't make his rifle shoot good without a tuner, then he can't make it shoot good with one. Everybody get this????
In any case mr nobody's noting that his tuner moved the poi with his "bad ammo" does not mean it wasn't making the bad ammo better. It just means it made the bad ammo group in a different place on the target. It appears he believes the tuner should make the bad (and thus different) group in the same position as his good ammo. If it doesn't then his conclusion is the tuner "has no effect on bad ammo".
Then let's look at what hi2utoo says: He says if he can't make his rifle shoot good without a tuner, then he can't make it shoot good with one. Everybody get this????
Kent Owens
Well-known member
pacecil,
Hang in there. Maybe you can convince the folks that they don't really need tuners. Don't give up the fight. I'd especially appreciate it if you could talk the guys I shoot with to remove theirs for 2010. I'd bet they'd get different results.
Hang in there. Maybe you can convince the folks that they don't really need tuners. Don't give up the fight. I'd especially appreciate it if you could talk the guys I shoot with to remove theirs for 2010. I'd bet they'd get different results.
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mr. nobody
Guest
pacecil,
when i first got my old suhl that shot so well i found lots of eley that shot great in it. then when i got my tuner and got it tuned, it made more of a difference than you would think it does. a much tighter smaller group. it went from shooting 1/4 inch groups down to one ragged hole groups. your not going to convince me or anybody else who have seen it happen that a tuner doesn't help any in the least.
when you get one set right and get the amo the rifle wants to shoot it does indeed help alot. if they didn't help would anybody ever have one on a rifle? they'd just be high priced paper wieghts. instead people who have used them and seen what they do do when they are set right wouldn't even begin to shoot in a match against anybody using them and even think they could get in the top rankings.
you can think what you want but look at the target closely. there is stringing plain as day before i got the right wieght set on the rifle. then as i got to adjusting the adjustment collar on it the group tightened up. as i passed the sweet spot they started opening back up again.
a tuned rifle shoots better in the wind. it make find great lots of ammo easier, and they simply make a great rifle into a truely great joy to shoot.
you can go on living in the dark ages if you wish. but those of us who have seen the light are now living in it.
when i first got my old suhl that shot so well i found lots of eley that shot great in it. then when i got my tuner and got it tuned, it made more of a difference than you would think it does. a much tighter smaller group. it went from shooting 1/4 inch groups down to one ragged hole groups. your not going to convince me or anybody else who have seen it happen that a tuner doesn't help any in the least.
when you get one set right and get the amo the rifle wants to shoot it does indeed help alot. if they didn't help would anybody ever have one on a rifle? they'd just be high priced paper wieghts. instead people who have used them and seen what they do do when they are set right wouldn't even begin to shoot in a match against anybody using them and even think they could get in the top rankings.
you can think what you want but look at the target closely. there is stringing plain as day before i got the right wieght set on the rifle. then as i got to adjusting the adjustment collar on it the group tightened up. as i passed the sweet spot they started opening back up again.
a tuned rifle shoots better in the wind. it make find great lots of ammo easier, and they simply make a great rifle into a truely great joy to shoot.
you can go on living in the dark ages if you wish. but those of us who have seen the light are now living in it.
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pacecil
Guest
To mr nobody
Do you mean one hole groups (let's just call it .25 ctc) at 50 yards EVERY-TIME!
Do you mean one hole groups (let's just call it .25 ctc) at 50 yards EVERY-TIME!
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martin hammond
Guest
if your rifle is bedded and tuned properly and the timing is set properly there is no such thing as bad match ammo. and pacecil you have the tuning about 98% right, the reason it is minimal is it's not tuned and time properly.
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mr. nobody
Guest
the tuning part i totally understand. it's the timing thing that i still haven't figured out what is it you are timing marty? from what i have gathered the tuner will make the bullet leave the muzzle at the muzzles highest/lowest point in the vibration.
i have seen groups go from .250 ctc to one ragged hole. the first step was to find ammo the rifle liked. buy as much of it as i could then install the tuner and tune it to that ammo. then on you buy ammo that fits that tune.
marty has something he is doing. it is pretty much what calfee told everybody years ago(hopewell test). right down to calfees water test. it works for him. heck it works for everybody when you do it. i'm just stumped by marty saying timing. what is it you are timing?
i have seen groups go from .250 ctc to one ragged hole. the first step was to find ammo the rifle liked. buy as much of it as i could then install the tuner and tune it to that ammo. then on you buy ammo that fits that tune.
marty has something he is doing. it is pretty much what calfee told everybody years ago(hopewell test). right down to calfees water test. it works for him. heck it works for everybody when you do it. i'm just stumped by marty saying timing. what is it you are timing?
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mr. nobody
Guest
i don't shoot groups after i find ammo that shoots tiny groups. i buy 2 boxes of test lots.1 i use for groups. if it doesn't shoot groups under .250 grease ring to grease ring i set it aside(not center to center). i shoot for score after that with the last box. group shooting doesn't impress me much anymore. shooting score is what i like. i leave the group shooting up to people who enjoy it. and .250 grease ring to grease ring is the cut off limit on any ammo i test. if it isn't almost one ragged hole when i test i set it aside and use it to follow the barrel after i clean it.
you see the better the ammo and the better tuned the rifle is, the higher you will score if you can do your part. i'm working on every aspect of it. i have a great rifle now. it's almost tuned. i'll find the ammo and work on myself as i go along.
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rdterrell
Guest
Cold air
Cold air not only cools your equ' but cold air is more dense causing increased drag. Slowing your bullets out of their confort zone . Check speed at or near target....not as noticably with center fire but still there....cuz......
Cold air not only cools your equ' but cold air is more dense causing increased drag. Slowing your bullets out of their confort zone . Check speed at or near target....not as noticably with center fire but still there....cuz......
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pacecil
Guest
mr nobody...I'm just trying to learn how others evaluate their gun and ammo so bear with me.
you say...i buy 2 boxes of test lots.1 i use for groups. if it doesn't shoot groups under .250 grease ring to grease ring i set it aside(not center to center). i shoot for score after that with the last box
I assume you are using three shot groups. I also assume you are considering that .25 group to be the maximum you will accept, that is, it's not an average. After that you kinda lose me. If the box doesn't shoot under .25, why do you then use the second box?
you say...i buy 2 boxes of test lots.1 i use for groups. if it doesn't shoot groups under .250 grease ring to grease ring i set it aside(not center to center). i shoot for score after that with the last box
I assume you are using three shot groups. I also assume you are considering that .25 group to be the maximum you will accept, that is, it's not an average. After that you kinda lose me. If the box doesn't shoot under .25, why do you then use the second box?
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mr. nobody
Guest
the second box is for putting lube in the barrel after i clean it or i keep it for later use. i used to allow my girlfriend to shoot it through a savage markII that i have. the way i had been doing it in the past was i would shoot test lots in my 25 yard basement. if it was bigger than one bullet hole i sent it to the savage pile of ammo. i would shoot one 5 shot group, one 20 shot group and one 25 shot group. if any of them were bigger than .250 from ring to ring i set them aside. if they were one ragged hole under .250 grease ring to grease ring(that is not much bigger than one ragged hole) at 25 yards i next took it outside and shot it for score at 50 yards in the wind. i have found a great many lots of ammo this way that was great ammo. i won't name the name of a friend of mine, but i told him to try a lot one time i tested this way. he still has some of it and it was great ammo.
i have changed a few things here lately and feel like it wasn't for the best. i believe i will be going back to this method simply becuase it works for me(and at least one other that told me how to do it about 3 years ago). shooting for score inside at 25 yards isn't fun when you get everything right because at 25 yards you can and will shoot perfect targets. it's the outside at 50 yards that you prove what you have found.
i have tuned my suhl at 50 yards. i have to 2 heaviest harrels wieghts on it and it sets at 275 on the tuning collar. it's been there since i tuned it. i now test ammo and when i find what shoots the best to my tune at 50 yards i buy as much of it as the seller will allow me to purchase. i pasted up some 1072fps eley eps last year from dan killough i should have my butt kicked up between my shoulders(and yes that is my humped back and not my a$$) for not buying every bit of. i found it testing just like i explained above. first at 25 yards then at 50 yards. i was shooting through my suhl(if everybody has kept track of this i will not lie about it. my suhl out shot the rifle i shot in the matches last year hands down. i was bound and determined to shoot the hall actioned rifle because i gave alot more for it than i did the suhl. next year i will not be making that mistake. i will be shooting what rifle shoots the best).
i know somebody is going to say the tune on a rifle at 50 yards isn't the same as for at 25 yards, but yes it is. the bullet is leaving the barrel at the exact same point at 25 yards as when it is zeroed at 50 yards. the only thing that changes is the zero on the scope(if you rezero it for 25 yards). that was working for me in the past. it worked very well. i may very well return to it becuase what i'm doing now sure as hell aint working for me at all.
i have changed a few things here lately and feel like it wasn't for the best. i believe i will be going back to this method simply becuase it works for me(and at least one other that told me how to do it about 3 years ago). shooting for score inside at 25 yards isn't fun when you get everything right because at 25 yards you can and will shoot perfect targets. it's the outside at 50 yards that you prove what you have found.
i have tuned my suhl at 50 yards. i have to 2 heaviest harrels wieghts on it and it sets at 275 on the tuning collar. it's been there since i tuned it. i now test ammo and when i find what shoots the best to my tune at 50 yards i buy as much of it as the seller will allow me to purchase. i pasted up some 1072fps eley eps last year from dan killough i should have my butt kicked up between my shoulders(and yes that is my humped back and not my a$$) for not buying every bit of. i found it testing just like i explained above. first at 25 yards then at 50 yards. i was shooting through my suhl(if everybody has kept track of this i will not lie about it. my suhl out shot the rifle i shot in the matches last year hands down. i was bound and determined to shoot the hall actioned rifle because i gave alot more for it than i did the suhl. next year i will not be making that mistake. i will be shooting what rifle shoots the best).
i know somebody is going to say the tune on a rifle at 50 yards isn't the same as for at 25 yards, but yes it is. the bullet is leaving the barrel at the exact same point at 25 yards as when it is zeroed at 50 yards. the only thing that changes is the zero on the scope(if you rezero it for 25 yards). that was working for me in the past. it worked very well. i may very well return to it becuase what i'm doing now sure as hell aint working for me at all.
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pacecil
Guest
I'm sorry mr nobody, I missed "25 yards" completely. Nevermind!
C
cadillacjack
Guest
Hey Kent
What a Great post!! I agree!! I wish the guys I shoot with would remove their Tunners,Noodles, Sliders and Mid- Barrel Devices for the 2010 Season. Then Maybe we would have a Chance. See you at the Nationals. Fred
What a Great post!! I agree!! I wish the guys I shoot with would remove their Tunners,Noodles, Sliders and Mid- Barrel Devices for the 2010 Season. Then Maybe we would have a Chance. See you at the Nationals. Fred
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mr. nobody
Guest
that is only with the first box. the second box is outside at 50 yards in the wind for score.
here lately i have been trying everything outside at 50 yards. it has not been working to weel. i might go back to testing the first boxes inside at 25 yards and taking the 2nd boxes of the best lots back outside at the range for 50 yard score testing in the wind. that seemed to really help pick the best lots out for me. i have found several that shot well in no wind, but like crap in the wind. some that shot ok in each calm and wind. and some that just shot good in wind.
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martin hammond
Guest
Derek, this was shot yesterday in 38 degrees and winds exceeding 15mph, the ammo shot was just recieved yesterday purchased from a member on this forum. on friday dec 4th I will answer the pm's sent starting with the 4th one back. pm's recieved from 11:01 to 11:02 am will be the only ones I answer about tuning and temps. and how to tune with new ammo.
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Whistler
Guest
Marty, Let me Guess
The next thing on your agenda.........you will have a book coming out for sale!
The next thing on your agenda.........you will have a book coming out for sale!
J