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phantom496
Guest
Thank you . .
I will go to the links and see what they have. . . Thanks . . .
Phantom
I will go to the links and see what they have. . . Thanks . . .
Phantom
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henrya
Guest
My new (to me) lathe should be here by end of next week. Its a Boxford (English South Bend copy) with 1.375 hole in the spindle, 10" swing and 24" between centers. Its got a rocker tool holder on it now but I'm thinking of adding a Phase II pretty soon. I had an Aloris on my South Bend but they are mighty pricey these days. I had 7-8 tool holders and really liked using it. From what I read the Phase II is plenty good.
While waiting and watching for a good lathe at a good price I've been thinking about tooling and remembering that grinding threading tools was not my strong point. I could make threads but not necessarily with a finish that I'd brag about. I'm going to fix that this time. My original thought was to buy my way out of the situation but now I'm thinking I'll give grinding my own a good try before I shell out for the insert stuff.
And I'll be sure to watch for some T15 blanks.
Henry
While waiting and watching for a good lathe at a good price I've been thinking about tooling and remembering that grinding threading tools was not my strong point. I could make threads but not necessarily with a finish that I'd brag about. I'm going to fix that this time. My original thought was to buy my way out of the situation but now I'm thinking I'll give grinding my own a good try before I shell out for the insert stuff.
And I'll be sure to watch for some T15 blanks.
Henry
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phantom496
Guest
Tooling Web Site
I went to that CDCO Tool site, I see some tooling that I have kind of been after for several years and I ordered the catalog. I am going to measure my tool holders tomorrow and if it is about the same size I am going to order one and see if it fits, if it does I am going to send them a nice order for about 4 or 5 more of them. I hate having to take a tool out to do another cut and then having to go back and get the other tool again . . what a pain. Thanks so much for the info. The other place that I finally remembered was KDK tooling co. They used to be right down the street from me, then one day they moved and I didn't know where they went, Flagstaff, AZ, no wonder, the Peoples Republic of Calif. was/is chasing nearly every industry out of the state, too many regs. to let the businesses do their job. So the state lost the employees and the tax rev. from a really good company.
Thanks again . .
Phantom
I went to that CDCO Tool site, I see some tooling that I have kind of been after for several years and I ordered the catalog. I am going to measure my tool holders tomorrow and if it is about the same size I am going to order one and see if it fits, if it does I am going to send them a nice order for about 4 or 5 more of them. I hate having to take a tool out to do another cut and then having to go back and get the other tool again . . what a pain. Thanks so much for the info. The other place that I finally remembered was KDK tooling co. They used to be right down the street from me, then one day they moved and I didn't know where they went, Flagstaff, AZ, no wonder, the Peoples Republic of Calif. was/is chasing nearly every industry out of the state, too many regs. to let the businesses do their job. So the state lost the employees and the tax rev. from a really good company.
Thanks again . .
Phantom
Ben,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you...been working on the @$%&#! house. I cut recessed 90 degree crowns, and since I've gone to all the trouble to dial the bore in to zip point $hit, I swing the compound over to 45 degrees, and cut a LIGHT chamfer with my HSS crowning bit. Just enough to take the land down to the groove via the 45. Seems to work fine for me.
I, with no disrespect intended for Phantom, personally don't think crown type, shape, whatever, is that critical. I do think that a well machined, accurate crown is critical. I read somewheres that Boots Obermeyer didn't think crown shape was too terribly important, having tried them all. I think he cuts 45 or 60 degree chamfers on his barrels.
I've read where if one cuts a 90 degree crown on one's barrels, one doesn't have to worry about dialing the bore a whole lot, because 90 degrees to the bore is 90 degrees...even if the bore is running out. I think that is a grabasstic approach, and always dial mine in....makes me feel better. I cut recessed 90's because I like the way they look.
Justin
OK, I plan to continue dialing in the muzzle with a ptg indicator rod, and facing 90 degrees, with a 60 degree chamfer, it's working well so far.
thanks
Ben
ps, I'm building a 30x60 hay barn this summer, I feel your pain.
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phantom496
Guest
Tooling Web Site
Zebra13,
No offence taken . . I was simply making a note to those doing Crowns that most of the serious shooters do the 11 deg. and it is a common crown to see on long range rifles. My take on it is that it does not make any influence on the bullet as it leaves the muzzle, it leaves clean of ony gasses doing something funny to the bullet. The counter bore type are good also, but it all comes down to personal preference by the shooter.
I went to the CDCO tool site and purchased two of the tool holders, they fit perfectly. I am going to go back and order a few more pretty soon, I really appreciate the information on where to go and get them. I have been looking for those holders for nearly 5 years, finally got them. . .
Phantom
Zebra13,
No offence taken . . I was simply making a note to those doing Crowns that most of the serious shooters do the 11 deg. and it is a common crown to see on long range rifles. My take on it is that it does not make any influence on the bullet as it leaves the muzzle, it leaves clean of ony gasses doing something funny to the bullet. The counter bore type are good also, but it all comes down to personal preference by the shooter.
I went to the CDCO tool site and purchased two of the tool holders, they fit perfectly. I am going to go back and order a few more pretty soon, I really appreciate the information on where to go and get them. I have been looking for those holders for nearly 5 years, finally got them. . .
Phantom
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hsmike
Guest
Hi Guys,
Thought I'd introduce myself and throw some info out here for discussion.
My company makes the High Speed Steel inserts and kits referred to in the earlier posts (ARWarnerCo.com).
First I need to stress that HSS is not a replacement for carbide but an alternative. Most (95%) of our HSS inserts are for industrial applications where carbide is chipping or breaking. Luckily for me this includes most high temp. alloys and other problem materials (inconel, waspoloy, Ti, Stainless,Ect...).
Our inserts are made from a grade of HSS known as T-15. This is a Tungsten based, 5% cobalt grade that has the best wear resistance, red hardness & toughness for the money. ( $19.00/$24.00 per lb)
In one of the above posts back rake was an issue. Carbide inserts are pressed then sintered. A chipbreaker can be pressed into a carbide insert thus giving the tool back rake. since a chipbreaker can't be pressed into a HSS insert we must grind one in. When we do this, it can only be done on one edge (without crossing on the corners). This is very effective But it makes the tool directional.(left hand or right hand). That is why we don't offer chip control (or back rake)in the kits.
As far as the screws that we use, most of our inserts have ISO holes in them that require a 60° torx screw(same as carbide that the 4th letter is a "T" or "W" such as TCMT, CCMW Ect..)
Another issue is side clearance. our inserts have an 11° clearance angle around the periphery. Carbide is usually 5° or 7°. This is for strength. Carbide edges are very fragile. We actually make some inserts that have 30° side clearance with a 20° chip breaker. (very sharp!).
One more note: most Carbide inserts for turning have a hone or TLand on the edge. This is actually a radius or flat on the cutting edge. It can be as small as .005 or as large as .015. Your lightest cut has to be deeper this dimension. if it is not you are creating a negative cutting configuration. (rubbing it off). Most Carbide manufacturer's list this dimension in the catalog for the specific insert.
Enough for now (long week)be back soon
Mike Warner
Arthur R. Warner Co.
Thought I'd introduce myself and throw some info out here for discussion.
My company makes the High Speed Steel inserts and kits referred to in the earlier posts (ARWarnerCo.com).
First I need to stress that HSS is not a replacement for carbide but an alternative. Most (95%) of our HSS inserts are for industrial applications where carbide is chipping or breaking. Luckily for me this includes most high temp. alloys and other problem materials (inconel, waspoloy, Ti, Stainless,Ect...).
Our inserts are made from a grade of HSS known as T-15. This is a Tungsten based, 5% cobalt grade that has the best wear resistance, red hardness & toughness for the money. ( $19.00/$24.00 per lb)
In one of the above posts back rake was an issue. Carbide inserts are pressed then sintered. A chipbreaker can be pressed into a carbide insert thus giving the tool back rake. since a chipbreaker can't be pressed into a HSS insert we must grind one in. When we do this, it can only be done on one edge (without crossing on the corners). This is very effective But it makes the tool directional.(left hand or right hand). That is why we don't offer chip control (or back rake)in the kits.
As far as the screws that we use, most of our inserts have ISO holes in them that require a 60° torx screw(same as carbide that the 4th letter is a "T" or "W" such as TCMT, CCMW Ect..)
Another issue is side clearance. our inserts have an 11° clearance angle around the periphery. Carbide is usually 5° or 7°. This is for strength. Carbide edges are very fragile. We actually make some inserts that have 30° side clearance with a 20° chip breaker. (very sharp!).
One more note: most Carbide inserts for turning have a hone or TLand on the edge. This is actually a radius or flat on the cutting edge. It can be as small as .005 or as large as .015. Your lightest cut has to be deeper this dimension. if it is not you are creating a negative cutting configuration. (rubbing it off). Most Carbide manufacturer's list this dimension in the catalog for the specific insert.
Enough for now (long week)be back soon
Mike Warner
Arthur R. Warner Co.
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huntinco
Guest
hsmike. Thanks for the post! Can you send me a catalog?
hsmike
Most machining done by gunsmiths is so much slower than the carbide they have in the tool holder requires. THREADING ESPECIALLY!!! Many of the machines aren't rigid enough as well. I'd think that most posting and reading here could take advantage of using your HSS inserts in their tool holders. The only thing I'd be wary of is making sure the HSS inserts have the correct rake etc for the industry standard tool holders that were designed for carbide. I use carbide inserts for blasting through the roughing passes then change to HSS for a good finish with light cuts. It would be nice to be able to pop the insert out and slip in a raked HSS tool to finish the job. As you mentioned in your post, carbide inserts aren't made for light cuts and most of gunsmithing involves fitting parts. Taking that .001" skim cut with your favorite laydown threading tool doesn't work like a well ground HSS bit. The problem is time is money in my shop and I don't have time to grind bits all day. I checked out your web site and was a little frustrated with trying to find pricing.
gunmaker
Most machining done by gunsmiths is so much slower than the carbide they have in the tool holder requires. THREADING ESPECIALLY!!! Many of the machines aren't rigid enough as well. I'd think that most posting and reading here could take advantage of using your HSS inserts in their tool holders. The only thing I'd be wary of is making sure the HSS inserts have the correct rake etc for the industry standard tool holders that were designed for carbide. I use carbide inserts for blasting through the roughing passes then change to HSS for a good finish with light cuts. It would be nice to be able to pop the insert out and slip in a raked HSS tool to finish the job. As you mentioned in your post, carbide inserts aren't made for light cuts and most of gunsmithing involves fitting parts. Taking that .001" skim cut with your favorite laydown threading tool doesn't work like a well ground HSS bit. The problem is time is money in my shop and I don't have time to grind bits all day. I checked out your web site and was a little frustrated with trying to find pricing.
gunmaker
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hsmike
Guest
Gunmaker,
First sorry about the pricing on the website. I just looked at it through your eyes and changes will be made.
Our inserts are made to the same exact specifications that carbide inserts are, thus they will fit the same holders. The problem we run into is that most carbide inserts use a 0°(N), 5°(B) or 7°(C) relief angle for strength. We also produce HSS inserts with these angles, but you are not taking advantage of the HSS cutting edge’s strength. More relief gives you a cleaner cut. Keep in mind carbide is designed to fracture the material ahead of the cut, while HSS is designed to shear it off. This shearing action generates less heat and requires less horsepower to do. A 0,5,7 degree insert will not fit into an 11°(P) pocket. So if you match up relief angles the inserts are interchangeable. The negative inserts that we sell usually will not be sold without a chipbreaker(L.H. or R.H.).
We have been working on a universal chipbreaker that does not make the insert directional, and will be offering it soon.
I have been working on a supplier for carbide inserts that fit our kits, and in the near future will supply them. I do have a carbide insert in our profile kit. It’s been an interesting venture trying to find a domestic supplier. Everything in our kit is made in USA and I want to keep it that way.
I have been asked by many to come up with a small diameter threading kit. I think what we are going to offer is a “boring bar” style, with a triangle laying down ( 60° included angle perpendicular to the part). I do not have the finishing capabilities to do the laydown profile threaders yet.
Huntico, sorry we don’t have a catalog on our inserts, Just the website. I have been meaning to put more info on the site just have not had the time. We are extremely busy.
Thanks
Mike Warner
Arthur R. Warner Co.
First sorry about the pricing on the website. I just looked at it through your eyes and changes will be made.
Our inserts are made to the same exact specifications that carbide inserts are, thus they will fit the same holders. The problem we run into is that most carbide inserts use a 0°(N), 5°(B) or 7°(C) relief angle for strength. We also produce HSS inserts with these angles, but you are not taking advantage of the HSS cutting edge’s strength. More relief gives you a cleaner cut. Keep in mind carbide is designed to fracture the material ahead of the cut, while HSS is designed to shear it off. This shearing action generates less heat and requires less horsepower to do. A 0,5,7 degree insert will not fit into an 11°(P) pocket. So if you match up relief angles the inserts are interchangeable. The negative inserts that we sell usually will not be sold without a chipbreaker(L.H. or R.H.).
We have been working on a universal chipbreaker that does not make the insert directional, and will be offering it soon.
I have been working on a supplier for carbide inserts that fit our kits, and in the near future will supply them. I do have a carbide insert in our profile kit. It’s been an interesting venture trying to find a domestic supplier. Everything in our kit is made in USA and I want to keep it that way.
I have been asked by many to come up with a small diameter threading kit. I think what we are going to offer is a “boring bar” style, with a triangle laying down ( 60° included angle perpendicular to the part). I do not have the finishing capabilities to do the laydown profile threaders yet.
Huntico, sorry we don’t have a catalog on our inserts, Just the website. I have been meaning to put more info on the site just have not had the time. We are extremely busy.
Thanks
Mike Warner
Arthur R. Warner Co.
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Jan
Guest
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henrya
Guest
Very nice, Jan.
J
Jan
Guest
Thanks,
.....a lot less expensive than store bought, takes time though!
.....a lot less expensive than store bought, takes time though!
There is no easy way out.
A gunsmith and machinist needs to know how to make and maintain tools IMHO.
Learn to grind lathe tools, sharpen tools, drill bits, end mills, slitting saws, parting tools, boring bars etc etc.
these are the cornerstone of a machinist/gunsmith/craftsman.
Insert tools should come later, for convenience, again, my opinion.
A gunsmith and machinist needs to know how to make and maintain tools IMHO.
Learn to grind lathe tools, sharpen tools, drill bits, end mills, slitting saws, parting tools, boring bars etc etc.
these are the cornerstone of a machinist/gunsmith/craftsman.
Insert tools should come later, for convenience, again, my opinion.
H
henrya
Guest
Well sure...
And I'm in favor of learning or I wouldn't be asking questions. I'd like to learn more about grinding tools. I've never been good at it - not as good as I'd like.
If I wanted to make something and had a perfectly made manufactured tool to help me -- I'd sure think about using it to make what I wanted. When I sold my last lathe most all my tools went with it. Starting over with no cutting tools the thought of buying something ready to work with is attractive.
And I'm in favor of learning or I wouldn't be asking questions. I'd like to learn more about grinding tools. I've never been good at it - not as good as I'd like.
If I wanted to make something and had a perfectly made manufactured tool to help me -- I'd sure think about using it to make what I wanted. When I sold my last lathe most all my tools went with it. Starting over with no cutting tools the thought of buying something ready to work with is attractive.