To those who can Run and Gun

CYanchycki

Club Coordinator
Okay guys, I have yet to see some of the top shooters in there fine form but I have heard much about them. The SMOOTHNESS of how they can handle a rifle at the bench and the LIMITED body movements in doing so.

2 names that I have heard numerous times are Joe Krupa, and Mike Ratigan. I have recently heard Gene Bukys named mention. I know there are countless more out there that I am unaware of.

In being able to accomplish that, I know it takes lots of practice and discipline on the shooters part until it becomes second nature to them. I also compare these people to our ELITE sports stars like Tiger and Gretzky. Those who for some reason just have that little something extra to put them above the rest of us....... They are who I would call the SUPERSTARS of the BR world. They have the ability to rise to the top on there own or in a team setting like the World BR Championships. They also have there off days but overall they are just that much ahead of the rest of us.

Then we have the GRINDERS as I would like to call them. Have to work HARD all the time. They have there occasional A game when they rise to the top but in general are consistent team players. This is just my thoughts about BR.

Okay getting to what the title says I have heard that the above mentioned shooters are able to wait for there condition and then let the lead fly.

This leads me to load development and how and where they seat their bullets according to jam or jump? I know that I have had best success so far this year in the limited range time I have had at 20 thou jam. Well when closing the bolt there is a definate difference in feel between 20 and 10 thou jam. Thus lending itself to more movement of rifle torquing when loading the next round.

I find it hard to believe these run and gunners are able to load develope with much jam without disturbing there rifles in the bags.

Anyone have thoughts on this? Gene, Joe, Mike care to comment??????

Calvin
 
It was a 5-shot UL match the last time I shot beside Wayne Campbell and he was shooting a rail. The line officer called 15 seconds and Wayne had not fired a shot in his record target. A couple of seconds more passed, seemed like an hour, then he started. He was finished the 5 record shots way before the cease fire. Could he, or several other top shooters, do it that quick with a bag gun? I'll bet they could come very close.
 
Then, think about what they could do with a well tuned and set up AR-15. They could actually run (on their own two feet) carry the rifle, and still shoot accurately, in a very short period of time. In other words, I think "run and gun" is a poor term to use for BR shooting, when there are shooting sports that do require accurate shooting, while you to actually run and gun .
 
Bill, they seem to be the guys who never practice or anything and win all the time.:):p:D
 
yup

those guys must be from another country or something,

I guess the terms are really

PICKERS OR RUNNERS

if your technique is smooth the closing of the bolt although harder does not disrupt the bags as much as one thinks,

try pinning the rifle with different pressures

try these techniques while fire forming, (saves time and money)

also try running 2 in a row at first, develope smoothness then try for speed,

also you have a joystick so you should be albe to go rather quickly

later Jefferson
 
Run and Gun

I have been practicing the run and gun technic with dummy rounds trying to take advantage of favorable conditions that might arise during a match. I have witnessed Gene B take advantage this technic at the Crawfish scoring
some impressive groups and win the 2 Gun with a .1978 agg!

The fastest I can cycle 5 shots off at the present time is around 15-16 seconds using a right, left, right Panda with a static ejector. The biggest time killer has been reacquiring POA and I don't think the bag guns can come close to the rail cycle times because of it.

I have used the run and gun in my last match with modest success and highly recommend the run and gun to any shooter who wants improve his shooting skills in the competitive arena. :)
 
I have watched Ratigan run 5 shots in less than 20 seconds and I am pretty sure he had the rifle pinned hard to the stop. Almost to the point of tipping the front mount over.

Donald
 
Bill, they seem to be the guys who never practice or anything and win all the time.:):p:D

I'm pretty sure Ratigan spends more time at the range practicing than the normal shooter. I figure Joe does as well. I talked to Allen Arnette at the SS one year. He made it into the Hall of Fame in one year, 10 points in one year. He said that year he shot a little every day. I don't remember for sure how many rounds he shot that year, but think it was around 20,000 rounds. There might be a direct correlation between number of rounds fired per year in practice and competition and how the shooter places. Most of us don't take the time or have the desire it takes to excell in shooting benchrest.
 
Mike

I know for some the only thing that would hold them back is the financial aspect.

Lets go a year of 10,000 rounds.

Hear in Canada I still may be able to get bullets for about 320.00/1000. That is 3200.00.

Barrel for Candian made is 400.00 for Gaillard. Lets rebarrel at 2000 rounds. That is 2000.00 for 5 barrels. Now I have to pay 150.00/barrel to chamber, thread, crown. Another 750.00. Powder about 5 8 lbr's of 133 around 1200.00. Primers would run around 450-500.00 for 10,000.

3200.00+2000.00+750.00+1200.00+450.00= 7600.00 Canadian if my math is right....

DEFINATELY more than I could afford............ Would I love to be able to shoot that much? You bet, hands down, LOVE THIS GAME and the people around it. It would take a Lottery win for me. That is the only thing that holds me back. I guess I will be one of those guys who hope to always be middle of the pack.

Those that are able to shoot LOTS are fortunate. THEY ARE EVEN MORE FORTUNATE IF THEY CAN DO THERE OWN WORK.

Later, Calvin
 
It would be interesting

If someone could make a comparison of the costs above to running a Modified Stock Car for a season or the cost of a competitive Golfer who plays in tournaments all summer I think.

Probably if one had the goal of being a Hall of Fame Member doing it all in one year would be the way to go, or trying at least. When a person becomes one with anything they are doing they usually get a lot better at doing it. I'm not saying everyone could do it but they certainly should have a better chance than those who shoot only when they go to a Match. Just MHO.
 
I'm pretty sure Ratigan spends more time at the range practicing than the normal shooter. I figure Joe does as well. I talked to Allen Arnette at the SS one year. He made it into the Hall of Fame in one year, 10 points in one year. He said that year he shot a little every day. I don't remember for sure how many rounds he shot that year, but think it was around 20,000 rounds. There might be a direct correlation between number of rounds fired per year in practice and competition and how the shooter places. Most of us don't take the time or have the desire it takes to excell in shooting benchrest.

Mike, I think you missed the smiley faces at the end, I was replying to Bill Gammon's post and yes Joe and Mike do practice and shoot as many competitions as they can. It is a little touch of Canadian humor.
 
I don't know whether....

.... I'd put myself in the top shooter category today. But, I know that I can shoot a large group as fast as anyone in this sport. When I feel the need to "get on my horse and ride", I can usually get five shots down-range in 8 seconds or so. With my railgun, I have shot 10-shots in 13 seconds (I know this because a few guys have timed me without me knowing and told me later. Had they told me before that they were timing me, I probably would have taken several minutes due to fumbling cases.) My older BAT-actioned rifles with an ejector are as smooth as any action that I have ever shot.

I will tell you what I do and you can use it for what it's worth. I pay very close attention to my rest and rear bag set-up. I run the rifle back and forth on the bags before the match to make sure that the gun points back up to the same place every time. I use a very heavy front rest (about 30 pounds or so) and it truly is the "anchor" to my shooting system. I also use a windage top (which kind of runs counter to what a lot of the other shooters view as a fast, repeatable set-up). I have tried to use a Farley, but because I use a left port rifle I don't like to try and do too many things with my left hand during the cycling process. I know that Gene Bukys uses a windage top, too. But, he also "leans" on his rear bag sometimes when he shoot fast.

I know that there are some guys like Larry Costa who shoots a left-port rifle and use a Farley and are pretty fast in getting them downrange. I believe that Larry made a handle for his Farley that holds five shots and that cuts some time. The new cartridge boxes that set-up near the loading port look very smooth to me. I have been shooting so long by picking rounds off a towel on my bench that I may have difficulty changing to something else right now.

I have watched Tony and Wayne shoot quite a bit over the years and their style is smooth and relatively fast. Their styles are very similar, usually taking ten to twelve seconds or so. Usually when they start shooting a group they typically don't stop until it is completed. I have never watched Mike Ratigan shoot. But, whatever he does seems to work pretty well for him.

I believe that the stock configuration is extremely important, too. The Scoville/Scarbrough stocks that I use are designed so that they are not as disturbing on the bags. From the first day that I shot one it felt like the light gun in the Scoville stock rode the bags as well as my heavy gun in an Adamowich stock.

I also make very sure that the brass that I use fits the chamber well. Dwight Scott not only chambers my barrels, he also made the dies that I use. And when the brass gets over-worked or has been sized poorly, this gives you that "double-clicking" at the top of the bolt travel. When this happens I usually use that brass in other barrels that were cut with a reamer that is wider at the base than my competition chambers. Or I just pitch the brass. It has been my experience that when this occurs a small-base ring die won't take the base down small enough to take the double-clicking away and make that brass useable in that chamber again. (I don't pitch too much anymore with the price of brass.)

As far as sizing the brass, I make sure that the sizing die is set so that there is just enough clearance to close the bolt with a very slight touch. I check this with every barrel by taking the firing pin out and running the brass through the rifle. Die shims are an important component in my range box.

In terms of where I seat the bullet, I haven't shot with the bullet out past the jam point since I started using cut-rifled barrels. I have found that to give flyers. I usually run a dummy round with moderate neck tension into the barrel and make note of that length with one of those octagon depth checkers that Sinclair sells. That point (which I call the "jam") is where I run the bullet back into the case to start. Seating the bullet out past that point seems illogical to me since the rifling will push the bullet back to that point whenever you close the bolt. Seating the bullet out past the jam will also disturb the rifle on the bags every time you close the bolt.

I also like to seat the bullet far enough back so that I can open the bolt with a loaded round and not stick the bullet. I have found that point to be at least .005 back from the jam; especially in a newer barrel where the rifling is still sharp. It also has been my experience that the leade area of the chamber takes on the shape of the bullet shot through it over time as it wears down. This makes checking the jam point critical over time.

I usually start .005 back from the jam (with a standard 29.5 grain load) and shoot three-shot groups (without holding off) at intervals of .003 back into the case. One point will show quite a bit better grouping than the others. I then run a ladder of three-shot groups plus or minus with the powder load once that seating depth is established. Over time with experience you can start to see patterns of how the group forms (and where) that will tell you what you need to do with the load as range conditions change during the day.

I have found that with a degree and a half throat angle and 8-plus ogive bullets that there is about an .018 travel back from the jam until the rifling marks disappear from the bullet. (It may be more, but that is the gage that I use.) There are quite a few guys who seat their bullets out of the rifling (farther into the case), but my experince is that this makes the tune more wind-sensitive. I know that there have been shooters experiencing success doing this, but I feel uncomfortable shooting the bullet out of the rifling. (Maybe the Old Dog needs to learn some new tuning tricks.)

Two last things: 1) you need to cut your necks thin enough so that you can drop a bullet into a fired case without having any friction. I believe that the bullet needs to 'escape" the case neck when it is touched off.

2) Different powders seem to need different neck tensions. I cut my necks to .0081 to .083. I use a .256 bushing for 133 and Lowell's boattails and a .257 for 8208. Those two powders seem to build their pressure curves differently. I don't have any experience with the new XBR powder, but it appears to be more like my old pulled 8208.

I rarely practice. I would rather shoot a match than go to the range and blast away (especially without some objective to accomplish that day.) I usually shoot between 3,000 and 5,000 rounds per year; and have so since 2003. I try and limit the amount of variables in chambers and components so that I spend most of my range time on condition-reading and analyzing what the groups and bullet holes look like.

When I go to the range to "practice" I usually get the gun on paper and break-in a new barrel while fireforming 25 pieces of brass. Then after that I usually run a load ladder and find a good seating depth. If the barrel looks like it wants to cut conditions, I'll put it aside and shoot one aggregate on it at a local match. The local Eastern Region matches are my practices. If a barrel looks good, after that aggregate, it won't see another round until a big match. I am lucky enough to have more than one benchrest rifle and they are all the same. I have shot over 100 barrels since I started competitive benchrest. Of that amount, I have had maybe ten that are capable of winning anywhere. I have shot three of those barrels only at the bigger matches since 2005. One of those barrels (a heavy Krieger) has over 3,500 rounds on it and its last match it shot a .17xx aggregate. I was lucky enough to find another decent-looking barrel this year, but time will tell. Usually you don't know if a barrel IS a good barrel until you look back on its history and say that it WAS a good barrel.

One thing the keep in mind: you shouldn't shoot any faster than you can think. And you need a real good set of brakes when you like to run groups. I believe that my fast shooting has hurt me much more than it has helped me in my shooting career. The benefit to fast shooting is that you can try and "cheat the range" by getting your group done before conditions change too much. I have found that style helps you not shoot large trainwrecks (most of the time) and decent two-gun scores, but you will rarely get very small groups. You need to decide whether the trade-off is beneficial.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Hope that helps somebody.
 
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Part of being a fast runner is knowing when to hit the brakes. You've got to stop quicker than the condition. That being said, it is a necessary tool of the trade. But equally so is picking. The conditions should dictate which method you use at any given time.

But no matter what method is best for the next target, knowing when to start the group is paramount.
 
Great Post

Thanks Joe, that is an excellent post! Shooters need to read it a couple of times. Really good information. Confirms many of my beliefs.

Thank You for taking the time,

Marty
 
Joe

all I can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your reply. I definately enjoyed the read and I am pretty sure I will read it numerous times......:):)

Calvin
 
Joe, thanks for sharing your thoughts - great info. As a new shooter, I'm trying to be a sponge and be better prepared for my next match. Don
 
Joe
Thank you for taking the time and for sharing all those ideas. You have given us a rare glimpse into the inner thoughts and strategies of a great shooter. It took you years to develop those ideas and it is a credit to you and the sport of benchrest that you were willing to share them here.
 
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