Tiptoeing through the tulips

John Kielly

John Kielly

Shari's fan club
I visit this site because I hope to gain more information that might help me in my shooting disciplines - which are nominated in my profile.

Often, I'm faced with conflicting claims & assertions without the tools to determine if any have real validity. Many times I've heard it said that Sonso's opinion isn't worth a can of beans because he doesn't shoot Super Shoot, or Georgeoutatexas doesn't even compete. Other times, as happened recently, a poster will blow up because his position has been quiestioned and he does have competition cred.

Trouble is, I'm not Stateside & even if I was, I can't know that poster QED is in fact a Hall of Famer or that FreddieMac won the last Super Shoot. Nor can I know that Silvertongue is a superior troll.

Don't know that there's an answer, but it sure as heck makes it a real minefield.

John
 
John I know exactly what you are talking about. I am a serious lurker onthis site. It does not take long to figure the few you can take to the bank. But there is a ton of ideas and opinions to digest. That is what I do. Have a open mind and do your own testing. The rest of the wannabees are just for your comic entertainment. Smile when it gets nuts. Just think of all the less fortunate people in the world than the BRC crowd. Ain't nothing but a thing. Stephen Dean
 
John Kielly said:
I visit this site because I hope to gain more information that might help me in my shooting disciplines - which are nominated in my profile.

Often, I'm faced with conflicting claims & assertions without the tools to determine if any have real validity. Many times I've heard it said that Sonso's opinion isn't worth a can of beans because he doesn't shoot Super Shoot, or Georgeoutatexas doesn't even compete. Other times, as happened recently, a poster will blow up because his position has been quiestioned and he does have competition cred.

Trouble is, I'm not Stateside & even if I was, I can't know that poster QED is in fact a Hall of Famer or that FreddieMac won the last Super Shoot. Nor can I know that Silvertongue is a superior troll.

Don't know that there's an answer, but it sure as heck makes it a real minefield.

John
Click to expand...

Well said.

I find your comment to both true, and to apply to just about every field in which I participate on web discussion forums. It was true on rec.crafts.metalworking back in the day of 1200 baud dialup connections when that news group was THE discussion group for the Bridgeport-In-The-Basement or lathe in the garage crowd (a lot fo the worthwhile pioneers from those days are on Practical Machinist. Alas, RCM has had a terrible signal to noise ratio for quite a few years now). It's true on Practical Machinist, Longrange Hunter, PredatorMaster, and about any other forum I frequent.

I'm a real newbie to precision shooting. I'm a varmint hunter, not a benchrester. I'm interested in first shot cold bore accuracy from field positions. I come here because it's the best discussion forum I've found for improving my understanding. There are remarkably few testosterone spills, it's one of the most polite forums I've ever been on, and the signal to noise ration (ratio of useful information to blather) is remarkably good. The several really long threads on the subtlties of barrel blank alignment are a good example. In the end, every method in common use has it's advantages and disadvantages.

That said, in the end, it isn't the credentials of the writer I go by, it's the fundamental physical sensability (basic physics) of the assertion itself. In other words, I take in and analyze the information itself and see if it can stand on it's own. If it does, I make use of it. If it doesn't, I don't. It isn't a fast process. I spent a couple of months working through all the in's and out's of barrel blank alignment but finally came to an understanding that works for me.

The problem occurrs because participants like us want to learn - continuous improvement. It would be wonderful if one could filter the data by the name of the poster, and in a few cases that's possible, but it isn't the best system as a general approach unless one can't analyze it for themselves aided by the analysis of conflicting viewpoints.

Bottom line for me, is to focus on and be guided by analyzing the data itself, direct my discussion to the issue, not the person, and see if I can figure it out.

Fitch
 
It's the price we pay for living in the Internet Age--anyone can post anything, factual or not. You have to sift through the Bravo Sierra and double check all "facts."

As for a guy's qualifications, many who have credentials also have big egos and closed minds. They are worse than those who know less but are sincere in participating, in my opinion.
 
John
You make a really good point.
I will just tell you up front that from time to time I will make some outlandish statement which is intended for entertainment only.
Personally I think those statements are pretty obvious but unfortunately some other people don't and as a result my bear baiting gets people going.
So if I make a statement such as, "I think that the 6mm PPC is an over the hill, also ran cartridge," please don't send me death threats as I am just trying to make a point through over exaggeration or trying to be entertaining.
And yes I have gotten a few private messages because some guys didn't like my comment about their favorite cartridge.
But just so you know. There are some knowledgable people on the board that don't go to the supershoot. I am not one of them, but there are some.
Ted
 
well john,
i shoot multiple disciplines. benchrest has always been club level only untill i got my feet wet with a 1000yd gun.
i have been loading since 1970...222.
i do not hunt, other than small groups.( not against it)
i have built three br rifles on ar platforms...they shoot well but i have been on limitied time and money....the economy sucks!
i built the 1000yd gun..it shoots 0.3's at 200....now if i could learn to read the wind.
i have an engineering background...with a little statistics and probability.
i'm a firm beliver in fixing the PROBLEM, not the symtom.
and i have a pretty open mind.....as oppose to some people on this site.
mike in co
 
I am way out of the league here. I too frequent this forum for learning, and have done so for a number of years. I have noticed some of the same things you mentioned.
Over the years I have picked out a few that I trust what they say period. I appreciate the no nonsense cut to the chase answers I have been given and I don't see them as rude. The time I have for the puter is limited and this is one of a couple of trusted sights I go to.
Thank you for sharing the knowledge that came about from extensive time and money expended.

Wyatt
 
I have been a Moderator on this Site for a number of years, and your delima is quite common.

The biggest gripe that many have is that many big time shooters will not join into the discussions. They are saying this while totally ignoring the fact that many do.

Many will not participate in Forums such as this because they lack good communication skills, they always sound like they are pissed of, and come accross with what appears to be a condecending attitude. They cannot understand why they are so brilliant and everybody else is so stupid. If you cannot stand to be dissagreed with, Sites like this are probably not going to be your cup of tea.

I do not know how you can separate the wheat from the chaffe. As you become more knowlegable, it becomes easier.
My best advice is to tred carefully in this minefield of knowledge, and never base a big decision, or spend your hard earned money, on the word of just one person........jackie
 
Sounds like many of the discussions on this board. Hell, the other boards as well.
WHISKEY
In 1952, Armon M. Sweat, Jr., a member of the Texas House of Representatives, was asked about his position on whiskey. What follows is his exact answer (taken from the Political Archives of Texas):

"If you mean whiskey, the devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean that evil drink that topples Christian men and women from the pinnacles of righteous and gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, shame, despair, helplessness, and hopelessness, then, my friend, I am opposed to it with every fiber of my being.

However, if by whiskey you mean the lubricant of conversation, the philosophic juice, the elixir of life, the liquid that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer, the stimulating sip that puts a little spring in the step of an elderly gentleman on a frosty morning; if you mean that drink that enables man to magnify his joy, and to forget life's great tragedies and heartbreaks and sorrow; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into Texas treasuries untold millions of dollars each year, that provides tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitifully aged and infirm, to build the finest highways, hospitals, universities, and community colleges in this nation, then my friend, I am absolutely, unequivocally in favor of it.

This is my position, and as always, I refuse to compromise on matters of principle."
 
JOHN; You are looking for the SILVER BULLET,I hate being the one to notify you that it does not exist.BOYER, BRUNO,OCOCK, HUCKABEE,EUBER BROS, or any other notable shooter have ony one thing in common and that is the desire to WIN.They have sorted through the variables, came up with their own combinatoins of load development,understand and read the condition,have equiptment I.E.scope,barrels,stocks,actions,front rest,and rear bag that works for THEM! Gun control and DISIPLINE at the bench is something that can only be learned through expierience,bad habits are are easy to fall into I.E. gun handling. The above mentioned shooters do not win all the time,if there was a SILVER BULLET they would have it!
 
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.
 
These two items pretty much sum up the discussion on most forums. I have had these for over thirty years and they still fit a lot of situations. The last sentence is the most profound.



I fully realize that I have not
succeeded in answering all of your
questions.

Indeed, I feel I have not answered
any of them completely. The
answers I have found only serve to
raise a whole new set of questions,
which only lead to more problems,
some of which we weren't even
aware were problems.

To sum it all up...In some ways I
feel we are confused as ever, but I
believe we are confused on a
higher level, and about more
important things.

Solomon Ibn Gabirol
In Choice of Pearls:

There are four mental types among human beings:

The man who knows, and is aware that he knows:
he is wise, so inquire of him.

The man who knows, but is unaware that he knows:
remind him and help him that he forget not.

The man who is ignorant, and knows that he is ignorant:
teach him.

The man who is ignorant, but pretends to know:
he is a fool, so keep away from him.
 
We Could Do This

Have a Benchrest Shooters Forum where anybody can log on and ask questions, but the only shooters who would be allowed to answer questions would be those that are Benchrest Hall Of Fame Members.

Perhaps this would encourage many of the top shooters to participate since there would be no fear of having to put up with a lesser individule questioning their expertice.

We could keep all of the other Forums just as they are.
 
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John

I like Jackie's post. Another reason big-time shooters don't post here is their skills are in shooting, not preparing equipment. You can't shoot on BR Central; it is much more equipment oriented. Now, none of the big time shooters have bad equipment. But I'll bet a lot to a little that they're not going to change something just because it works for someone else. Or stop with what they are doing because it doesn't work or someone else. They've got a system going, they're usually not working at the component level.

There are a few people who post here who, best I can tell, have never shot a bencherst match. More common are people who have shot just a few, or have less than two years under their belts -- still a rookie, by IBS & NBRSA standards. Doesn't stop them from giving advice -- even on this thread.

A lot of old, "everybody knows" advice. Or "the latest rage" advice. Not much you can do about it.

On the long range forum, one of the most often asked question is "what caliber should I use." Lots of replies. I rarely answer, because the truth is, it doesn't matter much. Rule of thumb is a B.C. of .500 or higher, and a MV of 3,000 or over, and you can trade one for the other. If I do answer, it is something like "statistically, most wins come to the .30s." Maybe I'll have to change that to the 6mms down the road, who knows? Is either the best? Well, if they win for most people, they're good enough for a newcomer, and that answers the question. People find it very boring, though.
 
I like Jackie's #8 post.
There are some that have decent info but are just jerks to put it simply and as nice as I can.
Some even go to the extent of creating multiple logins but alas their attitudes and writing styles give them away.

John I know you are not looking for the Holy Grail or secret potion to winning. But it is difficult to sort out the treasure from the trash, and the trash talking by some does not help.
I look forward to hearing from more of your posts in the future.
 
Yes Sir, it is a dilemma facing us all on almost any forum, but is it really any different from other methods of mass communication?

Group A: Many will not participate in Forums such as this because they lack good communication skills, they always sound like they are pissed of, and come accross with what appears to be a condecending attitude. They cannot understand why they are so brilliant and everybody else is so stupid. If you cannot stand to be dissagreed with, Sites like this are probably not going to be your cup of tea.

Group B: Hell, you can take a look at any thread on any subforum and see the same 9 or 10 guys fielding every question and making every comment. They must live in front of their 'puters. And if they're on the 'puter, they sure as hell ain't at the range shooting. Know what I mean?

We will always see the beginner/noob asking the same basic questions, lets not be too quick to judge as we were/are beginners at one point... I wince at seeing some of the vicious replies to their innocent question. My comment to those types, are if you cant offer a decent comment or reply, shut the hell up and dont answer...

I have been reading internet forums since their inception. At times I feel it is one of the greatest inventions ever, the ability to share information, research, review and ask questions from the comfort of your own home, regardless if you live in Nepal or North Dakota...

It boils down to personal choice to what a person/reader chooses to read, method to try, poster to believe.

Unfortunatly Group "B" tends to pervade most popular forums.. But ya just gotta tip-toe thru the tulips because there is a lot of fertilizer mixed in..

Just my .02.

Rod
 
goodgrouper said:
you can take a look at any thread on any subforum and see the same 9 or 10 guys fielding every question and making every comment. They must live in front of their 'puters. And if they're on the 'puter, they sure as hell ain't at the range shooting. Know what I mean?
Click to expand...
Not really. It's hard for most of us to shoot at night. People like Jackie Schmidt have a business to run. I don't think 4Mesh competes any more, but as far as been there, done that, he's got all the long-range T-shirts. The late HOFer Jef Fowler was asked if he practiced much. He said "no" (course he went to a couple matches a month in the summer . . .). Etc.
 
Jackie I'm not in the hall of fame at Williamsport nor do I care about the hall of fame. I just try and tell it the way I see it, things I've tried that worked or didn't for me. But I will sit down, side by each, as some would say. anytime at 600 or 1000 yards with the best of them. Does it count that my wife is in the Hall of fame. I feel I'm a better teacher than a shooter. Like I've said before, some people come across different on the forum than on the phone or in person. that is why people get po'ed. This is pobably how I come across sometimes on here. But I'm there to help people in person when ever I can. And I have never lied about what I've tried. And I also use my name!

Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
. . . And I also use my name! Joe Salt
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Joe, just a little humor for this thread -- You don't use your name -- at least, not your full last name. In one of the incarnations of BR Central, I entered my first and last names for the user name, and the program squawked that it was too many characters. I think it's a 15-character limit. So I had to become Charles_E, which seemed less formal than C. Ellertson.
 
Just a little humor Charles, if yours won't fit nor will mine! Joe Saltalamachia,and if someone would like to talk my number is (315] 342-3088. But like you I would help anyone that needs help. Or sit and talk to those that know more than I. Or dispute things I think are wrong. Dosen't matter I Love You all. And hope I get to sit next to you at the Nationals. if I'm not a help let me know and I'll go away.

Joe Saltalamachia
 
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