Time to do a proper job of reloading and get a full length sizing die for 6mm ppc

R

rodauto

Guest
Decided it is time to get serious about reloading for this rifle, 6mm ppc with 262 tight neck chamber. I have been using my Wilson neck sizer die as that is what came with the rifle along with the Lapua brass formed from 220 russian.
I have started from scratch as I have been getting varying degrees of success with this rifle and until now haven't been able to nail down a load that I am happy with.
I had been ignoring the case length as all the cases were too short, likely from trimming to length before fire forming. (I am guessing this is the case because when I did this with my Sako that was the result I ended up with.
All my brass is now 1.487 to 1.488 trimmed length.
Adjusted my Redding full length sizing die from my 6mm ppc USA die set to bump shoulder about .003 until I get a proper die, then ran them through my neck sizing die to be ready to reload.
Cleaned, cleaned and then cleaned the rifle some more to remove any moly that remained, never saw any copper even when using Hoppes No 9. just some carbon that came out quite easily.
Chucked the idea of free recoil for now as I had introdused so many variables I didn't know where to look for problems!
I am trying the AA 2015 powder and loaded Berger column and 68 Gr Berger Molly bullets

First thing I noticed with clean barrel and Berger column (not Moly) bullets was that the first shot was about .7 inches high, never experienced that with the molly bullets from a clean bore in all the time I have shot this rifle!
Shot 9 three shot groups with Column bullets best .137, next .147, worst was .285 not counting the first group of course at 1.53
Shot 6 three shot groups with berger 68 grain molly and ran out of time best was .171, then .199 worst, .460

I know I need 5 shot groups to prove anything but wanted to get an idea of where to start with my new powder/ bullet combination. Most of the smallest groups produced a nice round hole rather than a vertical or horizontal group and from what I understand/ have read, this is a good indication of a load that is "in tune?"

I am looking at the Whidden full length sizing die with bushings to size the neck, and will continue to use my Wilson seater die. Any reason I should consider a different full length sizing die? I am getting tired of buying multiple sets of dies that end up on the shelf!!


Rodney
 
Not familiar with the Whidden die, but...

A custom made Redding full length "S" type die made from three of my fired cases sent in works great for me.

virg
 
I would send a couple of cases that were fired with warm loads, for several firings, and only neck sized, that are tight to Harrell Precision along with an order for a FL die that matches your chamber. Lots of shooters use his dies. Why are you bumping .003 with your current FL die, to get some sizing at the base? Also I wouldn't worry about your current trim length. You might want to look at the first Youtube segment by Jack Neary. It addresses this issue. You mentioned not seeing signs of copper, checking with #9. If it is the regular old #9, that is not the solvent that I would recommed to check with. I use Butch's Bore shine for my standard solvent, and it is much better than #9 on copper, without going to extremes, which should not be necessarry on a good barrel. How are you doing your load workup? Were your test groups with different powder charges and/or seating depths? Are you shooting over flags?
 
Thanks Virg,
Didn't know redding offered that option, will check it out
 
Hi Boyd,
Forgot to say that the load development for the Column bullets was from 27 to 28.6 grains of AA 2015, the 68 Grain Moly bullets was AA 2015 from 27 grains to 28 when I ran out of time, still need to try the 28.2 to 28.6 with the moly. Idea was to compare the 2 bullets with the same powder charges.
Shot the Columns first so no Moly in the barrel.
I used my full length sizing die set to bump back the shoulder as I understood that just neck sizing was the wrong thing to do and just worked with what I had for the moment.
I am seating the bullets so they are "just touching the lands" so far according to the cut out section of barrel that came with the rifle. The cut out section of barrel is, I am assuming chambered with the same reamer as the rifle so I expect I am actually a few thousands short of actually touching, original claimed rounds of 327 plus my 351 for a total of 678 rounds through this barrel so I am sure the lands have moved forward a little since new.
I have the Hornady OAL guage but realized I have to neck turn the modified casing to fit my tight neck chamber !!
I have the Butches bore shine also so will give that a try.
Forgot to add, no wind flags, my bad, lucky to get a day with no wind.(I think).
Need to check out Harrel precision, they are the guys that make the powder measure every one uses?

Rodney
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If these Whidden dies are half as cool as they look they could become my new 'go to' .......IF they're hardened.

Harrell dies are a good option, yes the Harrell's of the powder throwers and muzzle brakes,
al
 
We can’t buy the whole kit at once, so some things get bought before others, BUT on the flags, sharpen the ends of some 3 ½’ long 1x2s and pound them in the ground with some surveyors’ tape tied and taped to their tops, hanging to the ground. Put one at 10 yd, the next at 30, the next at 50 and the last at 70. These are just approximate. The flag near you should get the most weight. Don’t be like some guys and say that you will get everything else done and then get around to flags. That is like saying that after you learn to ride, you will get a bridle and saddle. Some sort of way to read the wind is primary to the sport, and what I have described is dirt cheap (and will be a lot better than nothing). On the dies, the Harrell dies are made differently. Instead of using a reamer, he cuts the interior of the die with a boring bar on a computer controlled turning center. That makes it very economical to do a lot of very slight variations, without having to have a reamer for each. He has enough of these variations, sitting on the shelf, ready to go, so that all he has to do is measure your fired brass (done as I described above) and ship you the right die. I believe that this is unique to the die business, and his prices are a bargain. There are a lot of his dies at matches. On the tuning, you will find accuracy nodes about 1-1.2 grains apart for the 6ppc and you cannot overload a case with the new Canadian 2015 that I have tried (with bullets within the weight range that is normal with short range benchrest). If you are trying to get more in a case, a long .22 caliber drop tube with give you about 40% of the available powder packing improvement, and letting it drizzle into the case, or doing 4-5 short drops by slightly reversing the handle will give you the rest. I was able to get up to a velocity of 3,350 or so with a 20.5"; barrel, and some creative case filling. Are you loading at the range? One of the advantages of the powder that you are using is that with a little practice, it throws very well, within the limits needed for short range benchrest. The question that I asked about your bump was aimed at the amount of bump. I pretty much keep it at.001 or less, and with a die that fits my chamber, that is enough for smooth bolt operation.
 
Last edited:
I tend to use Firefox as my browser, and when I use certain characters they come up as what you saw , but only when posting on this site. (If I use another browser the problem does not occur.)In any case, I was just pointing out that many of us did not afford the whole benchrest kit at once, and that while there are things that can be gotten along without for a while, some kind of wind flags should not be one of them.
 
Quick thoughts:

1. Redding's lead time for custom dies is currently un-workable.

2. Whidden's dies are hardened. I have one of his does for my 50 thou-long-neck 30 BR. It's very nice and they are great to deal with.

3. I have a Borden-spec Harrell's for a Borden 30 BR that I bought off a shooting bud. None better.

4. I also have a Jim Carstensen 6 PPC FL die. Great die. Jim is a farmer and might get very, very busy with harvest real soon now.

5. I have a chamber cut with a reamer spec-ed to the Redding type S FL die. It works as good as any that I own.
 
Hi Guys,
Will set up wind flags, I think that a lot of us newbies are worried about introducing an added variable to our shooting process and like the Ostrich with his head in the sand what we don't see can't hurt us!!!!!
I bumped back the shoulders on my brass .003 because by the time I adjusted the die I had I was into about 20 brass with .001 to .004 shoulder bump and was tired of adjusting on a die that I didn't like anyway. Just settled on what was reasonably within acceptable limits :D
Do like the looks of the Whidden die, if I am wrong just another $80.00 spot on the shelf????


Rodney
 
rodauto said:
Hi Guys,
Will set up wind flags, I think that a lot of us newbies are worried about introducing an added variable to our shooting process and like the Ostrich with his head in the sand what we don't see can't hurt us!!!!!
I bumped back the shoulders on my brass .003 because by the time I adjusted the die I had I was into about 20 brass with .001 to .004 shoulder bump and was tired of adjusting on a die that I didn't like anyway. Just settled on what was reasonably within acceptable limits :D
Do like the looks of the Whidden die, if I am wrong just another $80.00 spot on the shelf????


Rodney
Click to expand...

Wind flags don't add a variable, they remove one. It is a complete waste of time, bullets, powder & primers to shoot for accuracy without wind flags (short range), unless, of course, you only want to hear the noise and smell the powder burning. I am perfectly happy with Harrell's dies, but that's just me. YMMV

Rick
 
Flags

mwezell said:
Well said!
Click to expand...


Ditto............ 3mph switch in vel or a few deg in angle will result in a bullet out........... Seen it A LOT..... >Get a good set of Flags<.... You will SEE the difference.
It's a must @ this level of precision accuracy.

cale
 
I agree that this is a necessity, problem is that most of us newbies are pretty intimidated by extra variables that we have not addressed yet. Right or wrong, (obviously wrong) we just ignore what we don't understand.
When I set up the flags how do I determine the amount of lead according to the flag direction/ amount of wind perceived or do I wait for the wind to approximate what it was during my first shot?


Rodney
 
rodauto said:
I agree that this is a necessity, problem is that most of us newbies are pretty intimidated by extra variables that we have not addressed yet. Right or wrong, (obviously wrong) we just ignore what we don't understand.
When I set up the flags how do I determine the amount of lead according to the flag direction/ amount of wind perceived or do I wait for the wind to approximate what it was during my first shot?


Rodney
Click to expand...

It's not nearly as complicated as it might seem. Pick a spot on the target, an X or whatever. Watch the flags. Initially, it's easier to wait until they are all turned the same way and with as little movement on the tails as possible. Shoot and see where the bullet prints. Take a second and maybe a third at the same spot. Then if you are not shooting to the aim spot, adjust the sights accordingly. Thereafter, watch for similar conditions to appear and watch for where the bullet prints. Then it's just practice and seeing what the flags and the sighters tell you.

Rick
 
Rodney,
Don't hold off, guessing how the difference in the flags will move bullets. Watch the flags for a few minutes, and decide on a likely configuration of the flags to try to shoot all of your shots in, one that will return often enough to get all of your shots fired within the time allowed. Don't make the mistake of starting your group in the lightest condition, unless it happens often enough to be useful. Match targets have a sighter target that can be used to make sure that your barrel is fouled sufficiently to group predictably. You can also use it if the condition that that you started your record group in does not return, and you need to pick a new aiming point for subsequent shots. The other thing that you need to do is to experiment, to see how much of a difference in bullet impact location you get from a given difference of the flags. If you continually try to shoot wallet groups when you practice, you will not get a feel for this. With a tuned up load, and everything working well, hold center and shoot in different conditions to see what happens. This sort of testing will start to give you some feel for how the wind moves your bullets. I rarely hold off, and I limit that to perhaps a half of a bullet hole. Too often I have thought that I knew that the bullet had to be pushed to some other position, held off, and had it go exactly where I aimed. After you go through several barrels, then you may want to change this, but only if you practice often.
 
updated with pictures and new range report

Just got back from the range, great day with overcast 10 celcius and very little wind (I know this because I set up a couple of stakes with survey ribbon, Red Neck style) Watched the flags and shot when the wind was in the same "condition" as much as possible?

Shot 8 groups of 5 shots each and all under 1/2 inch, for me that is a first!!
Still doing load developement and checking out seating depth but finally feel I'm on the right track. With any luck will be able to post some pictures here. using berger column bullets and AA2015 powder

IMG_2420.jpgIMG_2411.jpgIMG_2412.jpgIMG_2410.jpg

The last group was the largest, rushed to finish when last string was called, rifle not cleaned any time during the 8 groups?


Rodney
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top