The Second Amendment: Next questions

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koginam

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Good article got it off Google front page.
http://www.minnpost.com/community_v...ty_voices/?blog_post_id=2404#comments_section

The Second Amendment: Next questions
By Matt Ehling
Monday, June 30, 2008
Last week, the Supreme Court settled a constitutional debate that had, for decades, left an unmended gap in the Bill of Rights. In the case of District of Columbia v. Heller, the court finally ruled that the Constitution's Second Amendment protects an individual right to own firearms.

The Heller opinion overturned Washington, D.C.'s, strict 30-year-old handgun ban, and also invalidated several decades of lower-court precedent, which held that the right "to keep and bear arms" belonged to government militias, rather than to individual citizens. In this regard, Heller provided not only a narrow triumph for the plaintiff in the case, but also a broader affirmation of America's tradition of guaranteed, individual liberties.

In matters of constitutional law, however, a single courtroom victory seldom provides resolution to all aspects of a given issue. Anthony Heller's victory at the Supreme Court raises a raft of additional questions about firearms law that will likely take years of litigation to resolve. It is worth taking a moment to preview some of these upcoming battles.

A matter of incorporation
The next major test of Second Amendment law is likely to involve the question of whether the amendment restrains the conduct of state governments in the same way that it binds the federal government. Heller only addressed the Second Amendment as a matter relevant to federal authority. This was proper, given that all of the questions that the court confronted in Heller were federal in nature. However, a substantial number of American gun regulations are not federal laws, but state statutes. Discovering the extent to which the court is willing to extend Heller's check on federal power to the states is the next order of business for advocates of gun owners' rights.

To understand why Heller became the effective test case for the Second Amendment, one must first understand the legal concept known as "incorporation."

The Bill of Rights, as originally conceived, applied only to the actions of the federal government, and did not bind state legislatures or local municipalities in any way. Since the D.C. handgun ban impacted an exclusively federal jurisdiction, Heller presented a clean test of the fundamental tenets of the Second Amendment. Raising a legal challenge to a state or municipal gun law would have given the court the option of dodging the matter on a technicality. Instead, Heller avoided complicating side arguments, and allowed the court to dig down to the amendment's most basic underpinnings.

While the Bill of Rights was initially meant to constrain only federal power, its role has been altered by subsequent amendments to the Constitution. Specifically, the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868 broadened the effective scope of the Bill of Rights, and set the stage for its prohibitions to apply to the states as well.

Fearful that state governments would enact punitive, race-based laws to restrict the rights of freed persons in the post-Civil War South, Congress wisely passed a constitutional amendment that prohibited states from infringing upon "the privileges and immunities" of national citizenship. In the legal realm, this has meant that the Supreme Court has gradually moved to "incorporate" various parts of the Bill of Rights as checks against state power.

In the years since the incorporation doctrine was first adopted by the court, most of the Bill of Rights has been applied to state governments. The Second Amendment is among the last provisions of the Bill of Rights that have yet to be incorporated in this way. Because of this, the "incorporation question" is sure to fuel the next significant round of Second Amendment litigation. Due to the court's consistent track record of incorporating fundamental, individual rights, it is also highly likely that this matter will be resolved in the affirmative once it reaches the Supreme Court docket.

To keep and bear which arms?
While the incorporation question will loom large over future gun cases, it will not be the most contentious issue to arise from the Heller decision. The far more controversial area of inquiry will involve answering specific questions about which arms the people are entitled to keep and bear. In other words, federal courts will have to discern, on a case-by-case basis, which guns are protected against governmental action. In the realm of constitutional law, these sorts of questions most often get answered by applying a standard of review known as "strict scrutiny."

This "strict scrutiny" standard places a high burden on the government to show that a particular regulation or action does not limit protected, constitutional behavior. For example, in Cohen v. California, the Supreme Court ruled that the state of California could not prohibit the wearing of clothing which bore obscene words.

The court invalidated that section of the California penal code as an infringement upon a fundamental, First Amendment right. At the same time, the strict scrutiny doctrine also assumes that constitutional liberties are not absolute in every instance. Because of this, courts have allowed limited circumstances in which rights may be restricted, but only when such restrictions serve a "compelling governmental interest." In the First Amendment realm, the court has ruled that speech conduct which constitutes libel or "terroristic threats" is not protected, and may therefore be regulated by the state. By answering such highly specific questions, the court has allowed a complex body of First Amendment law to emerge.

Like its First Amendment cousin, Second Amendment doctrine may become equally complex and rule-based over time. The questions posed to the courts will be narrow, and will likely be focused on which calibers and functions fall within the scope of the right to "keep and bear arms."

While not providing a definitive answer, the Court in Heller hinted that it might look to a portion of the 1939 case "United States v. Miller," which was the high court's only prior Second Amendment case. In general, Miller set out a two-pronged test whereby guns protected by the Second Amendment must be:

1. Arms in common use;

2. Arms that could serve a militia purpose, if so needed.

Opinion endorses 'in common use' idea
The Heller opinion is unclear as to whether it would affirm both prongs of this test, but it very explicitly endorses the idea that arms "in common use" are entitled to constitutional protection. Thus, the court seems prepared to ensure the protection of some classes of firearms that have been hotly pursued by gun-ban groups in the recent past.

For instance, virtually all sidearms would fall under Miller's first category, save for some of the more exotic. This prong of the Miller test would also clearly cover the majority of semiautomatic assault rifles, many of which are in common use throughout the nation. If lower courts were to later adopt the second "militia" prong of Miller, it should be noted that many of these same assault rifles would make an even better match for Miller's dual criteria. Many common assault rifles, like the Colt AR-15, have functional characteristics that make them extremely useful in a military setting. For example, the AR-15 is a near duplicate of the army's M-16 combat rifle, with the exception that it cannot fire automatically.

By embracing the first part of the Miller test, the high court has also clearly indicated that there are limitations on the extent of Second Amendment rights. Thus, firearms that fail to satisfy the court's "common use" test will likely fail the overall test of constitutional protection. These instruments will probably include sawed-off shotguns, which were the guns at issue in the 1939 Miller opinion.

Heller is also explicit about the fact that it will allow certain regulatory schemes governing firearms to stand. The court's opinion tackles this question directly by stating that Heller should not "cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill." It is probable that the court will also find that the regulation of machine guns falls into this same category. Other than this, Heller gives little in the way of detailed guidance on these questions, and leaves the specifics for another day.

Looking forward
Some gun-rights advocates have raised concerns about whether the Heller decision clings too closely to Miller, which qualifies the individual "right to bear arms" by looking to common social norms regarding firearms use. While this may be a legitimate issue, it is worth stepping back to note the broader scope of what has been achieved.

In large measure, Heller is a victory for civil libertarians of all stripes – and not just gun rights advocates. By refusing to ignore one provision of the Bill of Rights, the court has indicated its willingness to view the document in a more holistic fashion. However, as subsequent legal questions play themselves out, civil libertarians must keep a wary eye open, for the federal courts have sometimes shown a tendency to develop doctrines that are overly deferential to the needs of the government, while narrowing the scope of protected rights.

As the next rounds of firearm litigation move forward, America's lower courts need to ensure that Heller has substance, and not just form.

Matt Ehling is a St. Paul-based documentary film producer and writer.
 
Great post!

Their will still remain the question as to what the founders meant and what the court says they meant.

I like and want the court to support the individual right because that's what I think is best for our country, but I think the evidence weighs on the side that the Founding Fathers were referring to the militia's ability to resist the Federal Government's Standing Army if necessary to protect state's rights! A big issue at the time. I believe the common culture and history of the time never led them to even consider that Daniel Boone's Rifle would be confiscated by ATF if they didn't have a 2nd Amendment! The fear was that state militias would be disarmed by the new Federal Government and it's standing army. That was the historical issue. Also firearms regulations existed in large cities while the Founding Fathers were still around. Do you think any stranger was allowed to come into Congress packing a concealed weapon just because they ratified the 2nd Amendment! You know that didn't happen!
 
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Yeah, sounds like it to me.:rolleyes:
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

-- Thomas Jefferson

"The great object is, that every man be armed."

- Patrick Henry

THOMAS JEFFERSON (Author of Declaration of Independence, member Continental Congress, Governor of Virginia, Minister to France, Secretary of State, Vice President, 3rd President )
"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." 12 Jun 1823 (The Complete Jefferson p.32)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Jefferson Papers, p. 334, C.J. Boyd, 1950)

GEORGE WASHINGTON (First President)
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

JOHN ADAMS (Signed Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress delegate, 1st Vice President, 2nd President)
"Arms in the hands of citizens (may) be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..." 1788(A Defense of the Constitution of the Government of the USA, p.471)
 
At any rate now that is clearly an individuals enumerated constitutionally recognized RIGHT - several other precedent decisions come into play.

Murdoch v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943) (cannot be compelled to pay a tax in order to exercise a right)

Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969) (waiting period for welfare check is void as it touches upon fundamental right of interstate travel)

Thomas v. Collins, 323 U.S. 516, 538-40 (1945) (registration to exercise a right is unconstitutional)

United States v. Jackson, 390 U.S. 570, 581 (1968) (government cannot chill exercise of fundamental right)

Minnepolis Star v. Minnesota Commn'r of Rev., 460 U.S. 575 (1983) (taxes on fundamental are unconstitutional)


Which support that States, Cities, and municipalities cannot infringe upon those rights either.
 
Great post!

Their will still remain the question as to what the founders meant and what the court says they meant.

I like and want the court to support the individual right because that's what I think is best for our country, but I think the evidence weighs on the side that the Founding Fathers were referring to the militia's ability to resist the Federal Government's Standing Army if necessary to protect state's rights! A big issue at the time. I believe the common culture and history of the time never led them to even consider that Daniel Boone's Rifle would be confiscated by ATF if they didn't have a 2nd Amendment! The fear was that state militias would be disarmed by the new Federal Government and it's standing army. That was the historical issue. Also firearms regulations existed in large cities while the Founding Fathers were still around. Do you think any stranger was allowed to come into Congress packing a concealed weapon just because they ratified the 2nd Amendment! You know that didn't happen!


The 2nd Amendment was a two fold amendment. One estabilishing state militias and two, the protection of the right to bear arms by citizens. Why the second part, well, who was going to protect the citizens from the state??? You saying that the founding fathers were providing a means for the state to protect itself from the federal side....what about protection of the citizens from the state goverment??? The best study I ever had concerning the constitution was at the West Point Military Academy, constitutional experts went into great detail on the understood meaning of the constitution. How is this important to the military, especially officers. Well, it's the officers duty not to support any law or order given that is unconstitutional. Well the military officers don't have time to wait on the supreme court to decide on the status of a law. It is the individual officers responsibility to know within general guidelines on whether or not the law may or may not be constitutional and he is required to enact upon his judgement and so is his superiors and subordinates on their own judgement. The military is not emplaced to protect the goverment as much as it is emplace to protect the citizens. It only protects the goverment if they are making the decisions necessary to protect the citizens. It seems the only people who try to undermine the constitution is the libs and the ACLU. The constitution is a very simple and easily understood document but some people want to try and throw in what ifs, etc...

Hovis
 
, but I think the evidence weighs on the side that the Founding Fathers were referring to the militia's ability to resist the Federal Government's Standing Army if necessary to protect state's rights! A big issue at the time. I believe the common culture and history of the time never led them to even consider that Daniel Boone's Rifle would be confiscated by ATF if they didn't have a 2nd Amendment! The fear was that state militias would be disarmed by the new Federal Government and it's standing army. That was the historical issue. Also firearms regulations existed in large cities while the Founding Fathers were still around. Do you think any stranger was allowed to come into Congress packing a concealed weapon just because they ratified the 2nd Amendment! You know that didn't happen!

LOL. In truth Senators and Representatives quite often carried concealed on the floors of Congress while in session.

But this brings me to wonder - which "State Militia" was at stake at Lexington, or Concord?
 
The issue of state militias was one of the core arguments for the Second Amendment, especially for the southern states. With a high concentration of slaves, there was a fear, rational or not, of rebellion against the owners. Southerners feared that, lacking a standing army by the Federal government, no one would be there to protect citizens in case of an uprising or rebellion. Their logic was that state militias could be called to duty easily and quickly, as opposed to regular Federal army troops, which could take months to mobilize.

Over time, this enabled the southern states' militias to remain strong. It's also one of the reasons the Confederacy was able to score a lot of early victories in the Civil War. Northern states lacked the draw from militias to man their armies, and instead, had to rely on volunteer and conscriptioned men, which took longer to train. Their officer corps was drawn from the myriad of military schools which were very popular in the south. They were able to draw from VMI, The Citadel, among many.

Best,
Dennis
 
LOL. In truth Senators and Representatives quite often carried concealed on the floors of Congress while in session.

But this brings me to wonder - which "State Militia" was at stake at Lexington, or Concord?

Now be honest! You know the first conflicts were about the British seizing armories, powder and shot. The States did not want the new federal government to do what the British tried to do to stop dissent!
 
The issue of state militias was one of the core arguments for the Second Amendment, especially for the southern states. With a high concentration of slaves, there was a fear, rational or not, of rebellion against the owners. Southerners feared that, lacking a standing army by the Federal government, no one would be there to protect citizens in case of an uprising or rebellion. Their logic was that state militias could be called to duty easily and quickly, as opposed to regular Federal army troops, which could take months to mobilize.

Over time, this enabled the southern states' militias to remain strong. It's also one of the reasons the Confederacy was able to score a lot of early victories in the Civil War. Northern states lacked the draw from militias to man their armies, and instead, had to rely on volunteer and conscriptioned men, which took longer to train. Their officer corps was drawn from the myriad of military schools which were very popular in the south. They were able to draw from VMI, The Citadel, among many.

Best,
Dennis

Excellent post!

(1.) Does that not underscore why the 2nd Amendment tells the Federal Government the States will retain the right to keep and bear arms as militias to protect their States from many threats including the Federal Government?

(or)

(2.) Do you think they were saying we are afraid you will ban our hunting rifles and we will not be able to shoot deer or defend our
familes from Indian raids?

Doesn't #1. make more sense in the historical context of 1790?
 
Excellent post!

(1.) Does that not underscore why the 2nd Amendment tells the Federal Government the States will retain the right to keep and bear arms as militias to protect their States from many threats including the Federal Government?

(or)

(2.) Do you think they were saying we are afraid you will ban our hunting rifles and we will not be able to shoot deer or defend our
familes from Indian raids?

Doesn't #1. make more sense in the historical context of 1790?

I would agree on #1, but only to a point. English common law provided for the individual's protection of "hearth and home". The founding fathers believed, as most of us do today, that our rights are inherent, and not granted by any government. While the militia argument bolsters the argument for the right to keep and bear arms, I maintain that the 2nd Amendment, at its core, is an amendment which rationally limits the power of the Federal government.

The problem, as is magnified by changing technology, is the fear of certain weapons which resemble military arms. We have a beaucracy that believes there is nothing wrong with owning a Remington 700 rifle or 870 shotgun. However, they fear the owner of an AR15 clone, because it has that "military" look. The M60 and the M2 didn't exist in 1790. However, effective self defense can't be done with a single-shot flinter, either.

We also have a woeful lack of firearms education in this country. I would imagine that at least 90% of the "men on the street" doesn't know the difference between "autoloading" and "automatic" weapons. This makes it difficult to assuage the fears of individuals who see an AR15 and confuse it with an M16.

Dennis
 
Since my post on the other topic didn't draw a comment from anyone, who is it that you think was to man the state militias and where do you think they were to keep their arms at? Kind of makes the point moot over whether or not the militias were involved in the second amendment or not!

I have never seen mention of armorys in the Constitution which leads me to believe they intended for the guns to be kept in the homes. Again, I ask the simple question, why are we limited in the guns we can bring to bare? If I may be called into duty, my model 700 won't be much good against a fully automatic assault rifle, sort of lends one to think they meant what they said, "Congress shall pass no law to infringe upon the right to bear arms." Why then have we allowed our rights to be taken away in the name of safety when it is our safety which caused them to add this to the Bill of Rights to begin with?

Some of you have said you see nothing wrong with registration or limiting certain guns, I say you are both a sheep and a fool for thinking so. Registration is the means to an end when it comes time to take our country over, or would you like to say something else is at work here???? A citizen of good standing should be allowed to own the guns that he wants to, especially since they are the ones that will be called when the time comes!
 
I have to agree with cntryboy1289, a person of good standing should be able to own the type of weapon he wants, with the limit of it being small arms. I am sure in a hundred years we will be fighting to own lasers or some other cool weapon.
 
Why the small arms limit?

Think about the revolutionary war, the colonists had weapons that were similar to or in many cases superior to the weapons being used by the British military.

The way I read the 2nd amendment there should be NO RESTRICTION, and a more careful reading of the intent would lead me to believe that I should be encouraged to own weapons that are capable of being equal or superior to those used by the Military.
 
I Must Be Confused

During the openning post in this thread, the poster asked if the Supreme Courts ruling would retrain State Governments as much as it restrains the Federal Government.
What am I missing here. The Constitution is the supreme law of the Land. No City, County, or State Government can inact and enforce a law that runs contrary to The United States Constitution.
The Supreme Court just ruled that the 2D amendment is indeed an individule right. In the majority discision, the Justices spelled out that REASONABLE restrictions could be incated, just as they are concering all of the other rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. This is probably where the court fights will erupt, as municipalities try to stretch the meaning of "Reasonable".
Every Government Body in the Country is simply going to have to live with this descision. Of course there are going to be challenges. Some might even try to ingnore the Courts ruling. But, they do it with the fact that there will be serious consequences......jackie
 
Now be honest! You know the first conflicts were about the British seizing armories, powder and shot. The States did not want the new federal government to do what the British tried to do to stop dissent!

No. I'm more convinced that it was "the people" that wanted to be sure it did not happen again. On any level.
 
Excellent post!

(1.) Does that not underscore why the 2nd Amendment tells the Federal Government the States will retain the right to keep and bear arms as militias to protect their States from many threats including the Federal Government?

(or)

(2.) Do you think they were saying we are afraid you will ban our hunting rifles and we will not be able to shoot deer or defend our
familes from Indian raids?

Doesn't #1. make more sense in the historical context of 1790?
Only in the sense that #2 was so completely unthinkable as to have been laughable at the time. And several papers said as much I think.,
 
Armories and storage depots were extremely vulnerable to seizure. The British Marines were on the way to Concord to seize powder, etc., they knew the colonists had there.

Later, prior to the Civil War, John Brown seized, for a time, the arsenal at Harper's Ferry.

Public knowledge of stores and materiels also provides enemies data on where to make seizures.

The "enemy" can't search everywhere. That's why stores are kept spread out and diversified.

Best,
Dennis
 
This is what makes me believe their true reasoning was to make sure that no one could ever take away all of our guns by seizing an armory or two or three. An armed populace is still the best bet for prtection of one's self, the community, the state, and the Federal government as well.

I have heard folks say that it is only the State that is being protected, but that cannot be when the others were directed at each of us, not the States.
 
Points well taken! Remember that my saying that the 2nd Amendment does not clearly speak to your rifle in the closet, does not mean that I don't wish it clearly did!

If the Founding Fathers had meant to speak to private gun ownership as a separate issue than protecting the Militias from the Federal Government they certainly new how to use language and say it clearly and separately. I think the F.F. would agree with us on protecting private gun ownership, but frankly I don't think it was an issue in 1780. The issue was the great fear of this new Federal Government with its standing Army that might decide to reduce State's Rights by abolishing the militias. They didn't expect Boone or Crocket to have to turn in their firearms to ATF! :D
 
Understanding plain English-SCOTUS re-discovers the Bill of Rights

To Koginam, ballistic 64, Vibe, Hovis, Dennis, Jeff, Rock63, Jackie;

YOU GUYS ROCK! Best thread I can remember on the intent of the Second Amendment. As scary as it is to those who would impose their will on us rather than lead by consent, the unique opportunity afforded to Americans by the 2nd Amendment is the ability to meet tyranny with insurrection. Preventing this possibility would seem to be the central objective of all gun control programs dreamed up by governors for the governed.

The SCOTUS has spoken on the topic of "Keep". It remains to be determined what "Bear" really means. Does it mean anything that you can carry as in not requiring wheels like a field piece, to move about at will where you would choose to travel or does it refer to "bring to bear " as in use.

A common misconception is that automatic weapons are prohibited. Actually they are merely taxed. Anyone who can legally own a rifle can also own automatic weapons if he pays $200 to the Treasury. SCOTUS has put us on the right vector. Future SCOTUS appointments will either support or destroy the gift that we enjoy from the Founding Fathers. November looms.

All the best to you guys,

Greg
 
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