The Parallel Node, Calfee

K

Kathy

Guest
My dear centerfire friends:

If it were not for the fact that a "parallel node" exsists in the vibration pattern of a rifle barrel when fired, a muzzle attached , adjustable weight, would have very little affect in improving accuracy.

The parallel node does exsist, and when a proper weight, for the size of the barrel, is properly positioned "forward" of the muzzle, the exact center of the parallel node will be at the crown. The muzzle will then be stopped.

My dear centerfire friends, these are the facts. I have placed this information on this forum as a service to you. I love accuracy, just as you do.

Either now, or at some time in the future, your muzzle attached barrel tuners will be configured as I have outlined. Not because I know anything, I'm just a dumb old feller, but because it's correct.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Dear Mr. Calfee....

as this applies to rimfire, when the muzzle is stopped, you still need to match lot number, speeds, machine number, underwear, Joe's red shoes, or whatever to the condition of the day. How come this "stopping" thing will not allow a person to go to the line with the same lot/speed of ammo at any given time of the day/night and shoot???

As this applies to centerfire, if you "stop" the muzzle will you not be back to tuning with powder/bullet/seating depth, to keep the rifle shooting in various atmospheric conditions again????

This is why I opted to stick with centerfire, because in rimfire you are at the mercy of your wallet when playing the ammunition game. In CF you can control the amount of several variables to make your ammunition as good as you can.

I guess what I am saying is that in my humble, unexpertise opinion, does this not have more of an after the bullet leaves affect on the rifle than an as the bullet is beginning it's journey down the barrel affect???? Because it seems that if it were the latter, one could find the spot, go to the line with the precise loads and shoot all day long with no adjustment, and I have not found that to be true in rimfire or centerfire. Thanks for your time and attention in this matter and for all you do/have done in your quest.

Linc
 
If the slope is parallel - it isn't a "Node" and the amount of movement is at a maximum - though it does stop and reverse at regular predictable intervals.

If it is a "Node" the angle is constantly changing and is only "parallel" at the worst possible moment for the bullet to exit - IE during the period of highest rate of change.

And most of all - if it's a node in one order of the harmonics (IE the 3rd), it's not necessarily a Node in another (IE the 1st).

It all sounds good, except the terminology does not make sense. Tuners do work. This is just not why. :D
 
Bill, What I don’t understand is why you definitely need a basically undefined weight forward of the muzzle? I read an article you wrote in PS magazine regarding this and you described the reason why some manufacturers used stock pressure on the barrel to aid accuracy. Couldn’t you use some form of barrel bedding to move the node to the muzzle in lieu of the tuner?
I guess what I’m wondering, could there more than one way to skin the cat?
 
jwv2001,


I'm not speaking for Bill here but I can answer your two questions. As Bill clearly explained in his first post he uses the tuner TO REPLACE A SECTION OF BARREL so that the actual muzzle can be set back where Bill wants it, right on the node......the point which he calls "stopped".........which in a sense it IS. It's "stopped" because it's no longer wagging up and down in an unrestrained fashion. This "stopped" portion IS though still pivoting in the same way that a rope tied to a tree or a shaken fishing rod pivots. The section of rifle bore behind it is STILL wagging up and down and the tuner itself is STILL wagging up and down...........and the launch angle is unaffected by the process. (Vibe in his post clearly illustrates this)


Bedding of any sort at all completely negates the process by killing harmonic barrel vibration. A rifle which has any sort of bedding or pressure point along the barrel CANNOT be made to be accurate in the sense referred to here. Any truly accurate rifle must have a "free-floated" barrel. The only other viable option is to mount the barrel inside a large tube and stretch it... http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek057.html ... like the Charles Ellertson gun in this article. Scroll down to about the third rifle, you'll recognize it by the barrel ;)


hth


al
 
Al,

When you say the launch angle is uneffected do you mean that the launch angle is always the same for ammo of different velocities and the muzzle is actually stationary with respect to departure angle ??

If that is so then different velocity ammo must display vertical. For different velocity ammo to impact in the same place the muzzle has to be moving such that the slower ammo is launched at a higher angle than the slower ammo. The tuner is set such that the launch angle change matches that required with the velocity variation that is being worked with. If you went beyond the tuned range of velocity vertical would start to creep in again, presumably.

Bryce
 
Bryce, no that isn't what I meant.

The "node" is in no way parallel to the centerline. The term "parallel node" is incorrect or at least unclear IMO. "Stopped" from wagging up and down, yes. "Parallel", no. You are right, if the node were indeed both "stopped" and "parallel" then slower bullets would exhibit more gravity drop and impact below the faster bullets.


al
 
To all posting here....

All of you for some reason seem to assume that Calfee thinks barrels take on the shape of a sine wave as they vibrate. He's made it very clear in his posts and in PS articles that barrels vibrate in a mode that is NOT a sine wave. I don't think he has ever put a name to it and I don't think he has ever given the mathematical expression for the curve. It's useless to try and make a point about a tuners effect by referring to sine waves while Calfee is considering the effect in terms of another vibration mode. Vibe, Alinwda, BJS6, all of you are talking apples and oranges.

The force field could be defined that would cause a steel bar to take on the shape that Calfee describes. It would be pretty complex and it's sure difficult for me to see how you could get it with a bullet traveling down a barrel. Nevertheless if someone could describe it then we just might have a real phenomenon here! I won't go so far is to say we are seeing a miracle ...but it's pretty close!
 
I didn't make any mention of a sine wave.

I have no interest in what manner the barrel vibrates, I am just interested to learn more about the manner that the muzzle acts to release the bullets. Can it be controlled such that various velocities can group together ?

I am also intrigued in the alternative approach, Gene's lighter weight tuner and how it can be tweaked as required throughout the day as an alternative to load tuning to suit ambient conditions.

The barrel could take on a corkscrew shape with a speed hump in the middle if the muzzle is where you want it to be, what would it matter ?
 
Freind pacecil

Friend pacecil:

I have said all I know about barrel tuners, for centerfire folks.....I'm done....

But my friend, I got on this computer, one last time, to see what was going on. about centerfire tuners.

I said I was done posting my thoughts....but, after reading your post....I am going to quote from you my friend...

" The force field could be defined that would cause a steel bar to take on the shape that Calfee describes. It would be pretty complex and it's sure difficult for me to see how you could get it with a bullet traveling down a barrel. Nevertheless if someone could describe it then we just might have a real phenomenon here! I won't go so far is to say we are seeing a miracle ...but it's pretty close!"

My friend pacecil, a properly place barrel tuner, is the greatest advanement in rifle accuracy in mine, or your, lifetime.

I am an idiot...I have no education,,,,but, there is no one on the face of this planet that knows what a muzzle attached weight, properly placed, can do to improve accuracy...than me.....I'm sorry if that is offensive to some folks..

Friend pacecil, is it a miracle? My friend, when centerfore folks realize what a properly placed, muzzle attached tuner can do for accuracy.....yes. it is probably is a miracle....

Friend pacecil, I'm a dumb old guy......but, I love rifle accuracy more than I love myself........

"WE' can stop our muzzles....then my friend pacecil, can you imagine the accuray that centerfire folks can produce, with their ability to hand load, with a stopped muzzle?

Your friend, Bill Calfee

PS....My friend pacecil....I'm done....I will not respond further...I wish centerfire folks the best with their tuner development...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
I can see it now, someone is going to get hold of Mr. Calfee with a pocket full of money, who can shoot, and the rest will be history. I look forward to seeing that day.

We all knows how this game works, let someone come along that cleans clocks and the rest of the herd stampedes. Of course that is always followed by everybody jumping on the band wagon. Telling any that will listen, they knew it all along.:rolleyes:
 
pacecil said:
All of you for some reason seem to assume that Calfee thinks barrels take on the shape of a sine wave as they vibrate.
Click to expand...
Sine or otherwise - the term "Node" only makes sense in terms of standing resonant wave patterns.

pacecil said:
It's useless to try and make a point about a tuners effect by referring to sine waves while Calfee is considering the effect in terms of another vibration mode.
Click to expand...
Yet he is using terms that are almost exclusively use to describe standing resonant wave patterns - most often Sine wave in shape and behavior. And even then incorrectly.

pacecil said:
Vibe, Alinwda, BJS6, all of you are talking apples and oranges.
Click to expand...
Nope. Barrels and Physics.

I've said it before, apparently it's been overlooked. Tuners work. Period. Bills explanation is just not an accurate description of why.
 
No, what Calfee is describing is NOT a standing resonant wave. It's a forced wave pattern that occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel. I admit some of his comments about "ringing" lead you to believe he is talking about natural vibrations that can occur in a steel rod but I have to assume he knows these particular vibrations probably have little to do with the flight of the bullet.

What you (Vibe) and many others are discussing is just this; the natural vibration pattern and how the tuner might affect this, and then how this affects bullet flight. You are trying to analyse what happens in a barrel with a tuner on it by considering the barrel takes on the shape of a standing wave. That's fine, but I'm not sure you can have a "discussion" with Calfee on this forum since he's talking apples and you are talking oranges........and then anyway, he ain't gonna talk no more!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
pacecil said:
No, what Calfee is describing is NOT a standing resonant wave. It's a forced wave pattern that occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel.
Click to expand...
I know this. But you're not hearing what I'm saying. The term "Node" would not apply unless it were.

pacecil said:
I admit some of his comments about "ringing" lead you to believe he is talking about natural vibrations that can occur in a steel rod....
Click to expand...
Well "ringing" the barrel will only reveal those "natural" vibrations.

pacecil said:
but I have to assume he knows these particular vibrations probably have little to do with the flight of the bullet.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you find that safe to do. I do not find that assumption safe to make at all. I do feel it safe to say that his tuner probably does do a great job, but I do not gather from his explanation that he is real clear on why, only that he thinks he is.


pacecil said:
What you (Vibe) and many others are discussing is just this; the natural vibration pattern and how the tuner might affect this, and then how this affects bullet flight.
Click to expand...
No. I am not. Not at all. What I have been saying is that the terminology that Bill has been using only applies to that type of system - and as such is the incorrect method to address and define it.

pacecil said:
You are trying to analyse what happens in a barrel with a tuner on it by considering the barrel takes on the shape of a standing wave.
Click to expand...
Again, incorrect, as I am perfectly aware that there is no "standing wave" during the bullets travel down the barrel, and if there is one afterwards...who cares - the bullet is already beyond it's influence by then. The problem arises when the action is couched in terms that only apply to such wave systems.

pacecil said:
That's fine, but I'm not sure you can have a "discussion" with Calfee on this forum since he's talking apples and you are talking oranges........and then anyway, he ain't gonna talk no more!
Click to expand...
I couldn't have a "discussion" with him anyways it seems, as he speaks, but does not listen well. I hate to say it, because it's very disappointing, but his mind seems to be made up and facts would just get in the way.
Again I think he knows exactly how to achieve what he's going for, he just has a less than clear visualization as to why it works that way. But knowing why a rifle shoots is not really important, so long as you can make it shoot. Lots of winners probably can't even pronounce ballistic paraboloid, and lots of physicists can't shoot for spit. Does it make a difference? Not until they try to trade experiences. Then they must find a proper language to use to transfer their thoughts. Bill has (seemingly) refused to do this. In my view it is to his detriment, in that what he is doing/accomplishing is indeed meaningful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top