The Eigth-Minute Rifle

S

Stephen Perry

New member
Warren Page if he lived could have written this Chapter. I will get it started many of you will finish it. Today many don't know don't care where their fine shooting gun came from. But like everything there was a beginning. Without boring you with the particulars buy a copy of 'The Accurate Rifle' by Warren Page and do some self learnin about our Sport.

Though it seems that if you don't shoot a .1 agg you will not make the trophy parade nothing could be farther than the truth. Weather dictates conditions and contrary to what some preach barrels and bullets don't cut through conditions. Bullets don't go straightline from barrel to target. Sorry to disappoint some of you well heeled duffers that think shootin BR is like shootin pool. Bullets if thay are made right do stabilize sooner in a properly twisted barrel. But in 80 mph winds as I've shot in Phoenix a barrel or bullet is not going to keep POI from moving 4" at 200, try and make your 1/8 minute group out of that.

Given reasonable conditions todays BR rifle will agg 1/8 Minute at 100/200. This could not be done in 1977 when I started. Groups in the the .1's happened back then but maybe half dozen a year and not by the same person. Those were strictly shooters guessing right on condititions and soon forgot.

Equipment today is as good as ever and more time is spent at the practice range especially those that know Tony is doing plenty of the same.

Looking forward to hearing what some of you are doing to take advantage of your 1/8 minute guns. Remember-- Benchrest guns never give up Benchrest shooters do.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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In the common usage, or should I say mis-usage, that uses 1" at 100 yds. as a minute of angle (Actual MOA to three places, is 1.047.) , an eighth minute agg. would be .1250. (Edited after reading Steelhead 1's post) These are the current NBRSA records as posted on this web site. Yes, it is getting tougher out there, but you may be just a tad premature in announcing that the era of the eighth minute rifle has arrived...three sixteenths maybe, but not an eighth.
Aggregate%20records.jpg







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I think Stephen was speaking in a metaphorical sense, He probably should have said teen agg's but his point is well taken. I have shot many matches that Stephen has run, and I have to say he has done much more for benchrest that many that post on this board. It is nice to see someone that is trying to start a stimulating conversation, than some one like you that is trying to split hairs and humiliate a fellow competitor! I am actually surprised that this is coming from a moderator! Better to be thought of a fool than to open one's mouth and leave absolutely no doubt!
 
Steelhead,
I am aware of the work that Stepen has done, and have great respect for it. He and I may have butted heads from time to time, but that has not diminished my respect for what he has done for the sport, and every Southern California Benchrest shooter. As to your observations about my post, upon rereading it, you were correct in calling me out on it, and I have edited it to a less abrasive tone, with admission that it was as a result of your post. Additionally, I apologize to Stephen, for being inappropriately rough. thank you for pointing out my error so promptly, and in a gentlemanly manner. I will be more careful in the future before clicking on post.
Boyd
 
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OK Posters Let's Go On this One

Hi Gary nice to hear from you. If have a new e-mail address send me a message so I can update my list.

Now that we have determined that I know what of I talk lets have a good discussion of BR guns and as they approach the 1/8 minute level which will happen. I can smell it happening with Bag guns as Gary Ocock has done it with his Rail.

The equipment is here now for 1/8 minute aggs are the shooters up to it. I said earlier Gene Beggs is close to building the killer gun with the killer cartridge. My hats off to Gene we have shot many Shoots together.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
I just finished Warren Page's book. I bought and read it many years ago and it has been hiding on my book shelf waiting for me to become re interested. I'm amazed a how much things change yet remain the same.
 
Even though it was published in '72, I always recommend Page's book as the first of several for anyone interested in learning the finer points of shooting from the bench.

Stephen, in your opinion, to what do we owe the advances that we are seeing, and, assuming more than one factor, how much importance to you give to each.
 
Best Read

Jerr
Of all the BR books I have and that ain't many as not many have been written I think Page's book is the best. I was delivered mine at a Shoot by my soon to be smith Harvey Miller. He said read this before I asked him anymore questions.

I like 'The Accurate Rifle' book because it was heavy on what was going on then in 1973 and Page was pre-NBRSA. If there was anybody to be known in the BR World from 1944 till 1973 Warren knew them. I feel 1973 was a move forward point in what we see today. Fiberglass stocks, wind flags, Custom Bullets, 2 oz triggers, and higher power short scopes mounted on actions moved BR away from 1960's BR. To top it off Warren earned his way into the first HoF group of 6.

Warren's Chapter on the Quarter Minute Rifle gave insight into the days of low .2 groups and aggs and he knew better was coming. Warren passed in 1977 before Harvey Miller's .1629 agg shot in 1979 but it wouldn't have suprised him.

Warren's shooting and organizational skills place him beside Mike Walker, George Kelbly, and Walt Berger to name a few. There is allot more out there about benchrest and some well learned shooters please continue this Thread.
Next.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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Long Task Boyd Need Help From Others

I can't give light to all the factors you ask. Others have more insights than I in all the various changes in the BR rifle. That's why I started this Thread so as not to hear myself talk.

In my time period of benchrest 1972 till now I would say the 6 PPC and glue-in stocks have been the largest contributors to bag gun advancement. In Rail Gun shooting the one piece base has offered the most.

Let me get out of this and have the others take over.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
The eigth minute rifle....hmmmm.... I have a question, because .125 aggs are not shot under match conditions...does that mean the rifles can't do it. Maybe we should be saying, the eigth minute agging system (rifle, rests, ammo, shooter) isn't quite here yet. I do believe, there are a lot of rifles out there capable of shooting a eigth minute agg with the right barrel in good conditions. I also believe that praticing on a good day, if you can't get a barrel to agg .140, it's not competitive at the big matches. I also believe that by this time next year....we'll see a .125 or less 5-5shot agg from a bag gun (10.5-13.5 lb) in registered competition.


Hovis
 
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Tiny Aggs

We were testing the new 8208 XBR a couple week ends ago, and It did not dawn on me untill Paul over on 6BR.com mentioned it that we had shot a six 5-shot group agg that went darned near into the sub .100 range.

That was sitting with the a Rail Gun, taking what ever time it required so that every flag was aligned perfect for each shot. What it shows is that on that particular sitting, that "Rifle" was capable of shooting a 25 shot agg that was darned small.

Of course, this has absolutly nothing to do with the realities of The Competitive Arena, where that pesky clock continues to tick, all five flags are pointing in a different direction at any given moment, and you are staring at a line's worth of Mirage. It is amazing how bad "the shooter" can make that Rail Gun, or any other Benchrest Rifle, shoot when the human enters into the equation.

Stephen, I was so glad I got to go to The Nationals this year, if for any other reason, to see just what some very good shooters, with some very good equipment, could do in some very good conditions. It almost answered that age old question, "just how good will one of these things shoot". Tony's "eighteen" agg at the Unlimited 100, (for you that do not know, that is eight 10-shot groups), was simply mind boggling. And back to back "fouteens" by Tony and Jack. That "fifteen" by Gene Bukys. And, to top it off, you had shooters like Libby shooting "zeros" at 200 yards.

As discouraging as it was, (a .230 agg would get you about 80th place), it should inspire us all to step it up a notch. It has me, but there is that old fear that I just might be about as good as I will ever be.

Thousands and thousands of kids probably take piano lessons every year. But out of that number, how many have that natural talent, coupled with a drive to succeed, that will allow them to be so good that people will pay money to hear them play.

Not many.........jackie
 
I often wonder why the PPC took over the sport so quickly, soon after its introduction. Was it really so much more efficient than the 6x47, or was it just the masses following the lead. As Jackie so often points out, there is an industry built around the PPC, so new shooters would be foolish to go a different rout. However, I honestly believe that many chamberings can work in this game, with the quality of the equipment we use being far more important than the cartridge. Heck, Mike Turner won a 2-gun this year using a 30-30 chambered rifle. Everyone knows the 30-30 is deer round, and not capable of extreme accuracy;). There are many facets of Benchrest that are taken for granted by today's shooter that just weren't available 25 years ago. High quality windflags cover every sqare inch of the range at all the big matches, and most of the small ones. On the equipment side of it, everything from rests and sandbags to actions, stocks, scopes etc have evolved into pure magic on the bench. Every day that passes gives shooters/gunsmiths the time needed to develop the best agging capability. Thinking outside the box and the willingness to toss your hard earned dollars into something that "might" be the next great thing is what keeps this sport moving in a positive direction...
 
PPC a Gradual Takeover

Hal
The PPC introduced in 1974 took until 1983 to replace the .222, 6x47, and other assorted BR cartridges at the NBRSA Nats. Could have happened a couple years earlier at the IBS Nats.

I was at the 1977 NBRSA Nats and the 6x47 was hot. Harold Broughton won the 3 gun with 6x47 all the way. Ron Hoehn did the same at the 1978 Nats with the 6x47. As Custom actions came out with PPC bolt faces and brass became more available the PPC showed up more. Remington actions with .473 bolt faces using Sako type extractors brought more PPC conversions in.

All in all the good small face .222 and 6x47 did plenty for BR and were retired in 1984 only showing up for guns to sell and a few diehards that had a smokin barrel for a deuce or a 6x47 to win on a tough day when the best condition readers win not the cartridge. Kelbly and Buchtel hang with PPC's in Unlimited today with their small base cartridges must be a reason.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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Stephen Perry said:
Hal
The PPC introduced in 1974 took until 1983 to replace the .222, 6x47, and other assorted BR cartridges at the NBRSA Nats. Could have happened a couple years earlier at the IBS Nats.

I was at the 1977 NBRSA Nats and the 6x47 was hot. Harold Broughton won the 3 gun with 6x47 all the way. Ron Hoehn did the same at the 1978 Nats with the 6x47. As Custom actions came out with PPC bolt faces and brass became more available the PPC showed up more. Remington actions with .473 bolt faces using Sako type extractors brought more PPC conversions in.

All in all the good small face .222 and 6x47 did plenty for BR and were retired in 1984 only showing up for guns to sell and a few diehards that had a smokin barrel for a deuce or a 6x47 to win on a tough day when the best condition readers win not the cartridge. Kelbly and Buchtel hang with PPC's in Unlimited today with their small base cartridges must be a reason.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Click to expand...


You've got a great memory!

:)

al
 
Same Stan Buchtel

Al
I can't explain my BR memory only that I lived it back in the early 1970's. Allot that helped was several years before I competed I became an NBRSA member mainly so I could get the NBRSA supplemental pages in 'Rifle' Magazine. I wore the magazines out including 'Handloader' Magazine. I had a local competitor that got me some connections so that I could have my first BR rifle built in 1977. Common rifle for the time XP 100 action, Brown/Six stock, Lyman 20x scope, Sherer 6x47 Sporter barrel Hart .222 HV barrel.

Since I had Harvey Miller as a gunsmith and mentor I learned the NBRSA well since he was deputy Director and later Director of the SW Region. I shot the 1977 NBRSA Nats at Kelblys my first year. That was my early carreer. My current BR time would take several hours to explain and I would get bored with it so that's it.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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