r44astro
New member
Yep! Ga.. Brady is here and more very soon. Jim will have gate open this morning (Wed)
Bill
The "click" when extracting a case?
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Yep! Ga.. Brady is here and more very soon. Jim will have gate open this morning (Wed)
Bill
I personally use custom FL dies that take care of everything in one pass, don't matter how hot you shoot. If your FL die won't keep the click away, you got the wrong die. This is the most costly route to go, but the best IMO. For the situation that you have, there's no reason to get a custom die if you aren't planning on setting up future barrels with the same chamber as the current barrel.
I don't have a ring die, but from the little research I've just done, and knowing Paul, I'm thinking that you have 2 options: Buy a ring die that WILL solve the problem, or buy a Redding small base that might solve the problem, up to you. You may find that the ring die will come in handy for other rifles as well.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Or send 3-4 fired cases to Lynwood Harrell and he will fix you up for about $80. And he will not send you a bill till your problem is solved.
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Lee Martin
Active member
I agree with Jerry. When possible, I prefer sending fired cases to a custom die maker and having the FL sizer matched. Otherwise, you're hoping an off-the-shelf die plays nice with your chamber. Harrell's would be my first choice too but I don't know if they do .308. If not, Jim Carstensen of JLC Precision is another option.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
To a point, I agree. Lynwood's die's are great, and as you noted, he stands behind his stuff 100%. I've got lots of Harrell's products adorning my loading room as well as trailer. But, you had better make sure you send him "clicky" brass if you want to cut right to the chase. I've seen a bunch of #1's, 1.5's, and #2's that get sent out because shooters send 3 of 4 times fired cases. Inevitably, the die goes back for a 2.5 or a 3...
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Yep, Hal is correct. My most used PPC reamer cuts 1045 dimensions and I use Harrell 3.5 or 4 die. I don't like any drag at all even when I'm blowing big smoke, like 3450 fps.
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First things first, before going off and buying all kinds of unnecessary dies/equipment tell us how you have adjusted your full length sizing die, tell us where the chamber interference is for the "clicking" brass............. a simple die adjustment or shellholder/die bottom modification may solve your problem for little or no expense...........Don
First things first, before going off and buying all kinds of unnecessary dies/equipment tell us how you have adjusted your full length sizing die, tell us where the chamber interference is for the "clicking" brass............. a simple die adjustment or shellholder/die bottom modification may solve your problem for little or no expense...........Don
No, I don't think it's a die adjustment problem. This is a custom chamber .308 for which I neck turned brass and normally use a Wilson neck bushing to size only the necks. I made two sets of brass, one with Win cases the other with RWS (German) cases. The Win cases did not prove as accurate or consistent as the RWS, so I used the later for matches and most practice. Loads were moderate. After 12 or so firings the Win cases started to "click" and the RWS at 20+ At first the "click" was minor sticking on bolt lift at the point it hits the receiver cam, but later it required some leverage to open the bolt. So I'm pretty sure this is classic case head expansion (and lack of spring-back) where it begins to stick in the chamber and cause hard extraction at the camming point. I tried resizing in my existing Redding FL die, and this helps a bit: ie leverage isn't required for a few firings but the stick and "click" is still there even right after resizing. This is mainly a problem when firing in a timed period. It is disruptive to the rhythm, slows things down and moves the gun in the bags.
I'm pretty sure I know how to properly adjust my dies. The shoulder is already being bumped in my FL die and the die is fully pushed down to the shell holder. Shaving metal off the shell holder or base of the dies would just push the shoulder back farther than I want. So I think my options are what a few replies already said...either take my chances with the Redding small base die or get a custom one. Actually, I ordered the Redding die last night. These are made without the neck portion, so the case body is resized to minimal SAAMI specs and can then be neck sized in a Wilson die or whatever. If it works, fine, if not then I'll have to dump the cases and prep some new ones.
If I were considering more 308 barrels with the same reamer, a custom die would make sense, but not really for my situation. I appreciate all the responses...it was surprising how fast they came. After the original post, I had dinner, watched a basketball game, and did a few chores and when I checked the forum there were already 15 or 20 responses! Much appreciated, I'll let you know how the Redding die works when I get it.
How much case sticks out of the chamber vs how much sticks out of the sizing die?
You fire the cases a number of times before the "click" begins indicating that you don't have a big problem but a problem nonetheless. You can either size the case further or reduce the powder charge when you make new cases.
I don't think a different die will fix the problem - could be wrong.
Check to see if an unfired round extracts nicely - or clicks. That will tell you something...!
You fire the cases a number of times before the "click" begins indicating that you don't have a big problem but a problem nonetheless. You can either size the case further or reduce the powder charge when you make new cases.
I don't think a different die will fix the problem - could be wrong.
Check to see if an unfired round extracts nicely - or clicks. That will tell you something...!
OK, I got the Redding die about a week ago and had a chance to try it out. Before reporting my results, let me say I agree with those who say a custom FL die w/bushing is the ideal solution. Surely if one were considering multiple barrels based on a custom reamer, that would be the way to go. However, the Redding die did work for my situation, so I thought I should report on it...not to argue, but just to say this might be a viable option for those who might need to economize for any reason.
This is one of a series of Redding dies that have a FL body and a shoulder, but where the neck portion is bored out a bit larger than the normal case neck. Running a case into it sizes the body and can set back the shoulder (if needed) but does not size the neck at all. There is no decapper or neck expander...just the die body. You must size the neck with another die, like the Wilson or whatever. I ran a case in to the point where the headspace was set back about .001 as measured from the shoulder. It chambered with very little "feel" on closing. This was a Win .308 fired many times, one which would "stick and click" on opening. It measured .4665 just past the extractor groove. After resizing in the die, the cases close and extract without sticking with the base now measuring .4663. Very little reduction, but enough to resolve the sticking.
I sized a batch of cases with this die and then sized the necks with my Wilson die. Case runout was low and the loads fired and extracted without sticking. Accuracy was normal. I don't know if these cases will be OK for a while with neck sizing only or if I'll have to run them through both dies each time. My test cases were Winchester-Western which I believe are a bit softer than Lapua or RWS and I have yet to test those.
So my conclusion is that this is an OK option for those with a similar situation. Again, if I were considering multiple barrels or even just one newish good shooting barrel, the custom die is surely better.
This is one of a series of Redding dies that have a FL body and a shoulder, but where the neck portion is bored out a bit larger than the normal case neck. Running a case into it sizes the body and can set back the shoulder (if needed) but does not size the neck at all. There is no decapper or neck expander...just the die body. You must size the neck with another die, like the Wilson or whatever. I ran a case in to the point where the headspace was set back about .001 as measured from the shoulder. It chambered with very little "feel" on closing. This was a Win .308 fired many times, one which would "stick and click" on opening. It measured .4665 just past the extractor groove. After resizing in the die, the cases close and extract without sticking with the base now measuring .4663. Very little reduction, but enough to resolve the sticking.
I sized a batch of cases with this die and then sized the necks with my Wilson die. Case runout was low and the loads fired and extracted without sticking. Accuracy was normal. I don't know if these cases will be OK for a while with neck sizing only or if I'll have to run them through both dies each time. My test cases were Winchester-Western which I believe are a bit softer than Lapua or RWS and I have yet to test those.
So my conclusion is that this is an OK option for those with a similar situation. Again, if I were considering multiple barrels or even just one newish good shooting barrel, the custom die is surely better.
Greg Walley
Member
Full-Length Resizing Instructions
Sticking brass after multiple reloadings is the most common problem in the precision shooting discipline. The following are the instructions I send to our customers when they have this problem:
A clarification on the procedure for correct shoulder setback (headspace) tolerances
Firing pin assembly should be removed from bolt for the following procedures:
• Use a case that chambers tightly using the stripped bolt.
• Set up the full-length sizing die in press so there is approximately a 0.010” to 0.020” gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder.
• Size the case, and check your shoulder setback dimensions to insure that the shoulder isn’t being set back greater than 0.001”
• Screw the die in closer to the shell holder in small increments and resize the case, checking your trial and error progress with the setback gauge.
• Repeat the previous step until you are able to measure a setback of 0.001”. Chamber the sized case to test for fit. The goal is to obtain a light press fit of the case in the chamber. The bolt handle should move approximately half way down its travel, and a light press with your finger should allow the case to chamber easily to the bottom of the bolt stroke.
• Usually, a measurement of 0.001” with a shoulder gauge and calipers will be too great to allow a light press fit of the brass in the chamber, and the bolt handle will fall down through its complete travel with no resistance. This is influenced by the skill of the operator in the use of calipers.
Typically throughout the life of the case, the die will need to be advanced closer to the shell holder from 0.001” to 0.003” to achieve the same light press-fit, overcoming the work-hardening of the brass. This incremental advance of the die will vary, depending on the loads used, type of brass, etc.
A facile way to advance the die small increments without moving the lock-ring, is to use “die-shim” kits. The shims are sold in 0.001 increments, and the lock-ring is set approximately a half turn short, and the shims are inserted between the top of the press and the die lock ring.
A warning on exchanging cartridge brass among different rifles and/or barrels
No two chambers are exactly alike. It is tricky business exchanging brass between barrels especially with tight tolerance match grade chambers. Also, if barrels are swapped from one action to another, even a 0.001” difference in headspace can potentially cause trouble when trying to exchange the same batch of brass. Shoulder setback for headspace should be less than 0.001” for proper function. Even chambers that are cut with the same reamer by the same gunsmith may not be identical. In my experience, I can assure you that many gunsmiths will cut widely differing sized chambers even when using the same reamer for the identical job.
Typically when one tries to measure headspace/shoulder setback with a shoulder gauge and vernier calipers; when 0.001” registers on the instrument, the setback is probably too great. Shoulder setback more than 0.001” will excessively stretch the brass. Continual over sizing combined with work-hardening of the brass will make it stick hard in the chamber. This problem is exacerbated when using anything other than Lapua or RWS brass. In my experience, most American brass is of poor quality and needs to be discarded after a half-dozen reloadings or so since it rapidly loses its resiliency. Continually resizing of brass to headspace dimensions greater than -0.003” will cause the brass to stick so hard in the chamber that it will be nearly impossible to remove it after firing. Often times one will break extractors or break off the bolt handle when trying to remove excessively resized and work-hardened brass.
Furthermore, the practice of neck sizing the brass for multiple reloadings...with subsequent full-length resizing once the brass gets tight will reduce the useful life of the brass. What typically happens is the brass becomes work-hardened to the chamber size and won’t squeeze down sufficiently with a full-length resizing die. It is best to full-length resize each time to keep the brass “in size” throughout its useful life.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
Sticking brass after multiple reloadings is the most common problem in the precision shooting discipline. The following are the instructions I send to our customers when they have this problem:
A clarification on the procedure for correct shoulder setback (headspace) tolerances
Firing pin assembly should be removed from bolt for the following procedures:
• Use a case that chambers tightly using the stripped bolt.
• Set up the full-length sizing die in press so there is approximately a 0.010” to 0.020” gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder.
• Size the case, and check your shoulder setback dimensions to insure that the shoulder isn’t being set back greater than 0.001”
• Screw the die in closer to the shell holder in small increments and resize the case, checking your trial and error progress with the setback gauge.
• Repeat the previous step until you are able to measure a setback of 0.001”. Chamber the sized case to test for fit. The goal is to obtain a light press fit of the case in the chamber. The bolt handle should move approximately half way down its travel, and a light press with your finger should allow the case to chamber easily to the bottom of the bolt stroke.
• Usually, a measurement of 0.001” with a shoulder gauge and calipers will be too great to allow a light press fit of the brass in the chamber, and the bolt handle will fall down through its complete travel with no resistance. This is influenced by the skill of the operator in the use of calipers.
Typically throughout the life of the case, the die will need to be advanced closer to the shell holder from 0.001” to 0.003” to achieve the same light press-fit, overcoming the work-hardening of the brass. This incremental advance of the die will vary, depending on the loads used, type of brass, etc.
A facile way to advance the die small increments without moving the lock-ring, is to use “die-shim” kits. The shims are sold in 0.001 increments, and the lock-ring is set approximately a half turn short, and the shims are inserted between the top of the press and the die lock ring.
A warning on exchanging cartridge brass among different rifles and/or barrels
No two chambers are exactly alike. It is tricky business exchanging brass between barrels especially with tight tolerance match grade chambers. Also, if barrels are swapped from one action to another, even a 0.001” difference in headspace can potentially cause trouble when trying to exchange the same batch of brass. Shoulder setback for headspace should be less than 0.001” for proper function. Even chambers that are cut with the same reamer by the same gunsmith may not be identical. In my experience, I can assure you that many gunsmiths will cut widely differing sized chambers even when using the same reamer for the identical job.
Typically when one tries to measure headspace/shoulder setback with a shoulder gauge and vernier calipers; when 0.001” registers on the instrument, the setback is probably too great. Shoulder setback more than 0.001” will excessively stretch the brass. Continual over sizing combined with work-hardening of the brass will make it stick hard in the chamber. This problem is exacerbated when using anything other than Lapua or RWS brass. In my experience, most American brass is of poor quality and needs to be discarded after a half-dozen reloadings or so since it rapidly loses its resiliency. Continually resizing of brass to headspace dimensions greater than -0.003” will cause the brass to stick so hard in the chamber that it will be nearly impossible to remove it after firing. Often times one will break extractors or break off the bolt handle when trying to remove excessively resized and work-hardened brass.
Furthermore, the practice of neck sizing the brass for multiple reloadings...with subsequent full-length resizing once the brass gets tight will reduce the useful life of the brass. What typically happens is the brass becomes work-hardened to the chamber size and won’t squeeze down sufficiently with a full-length resizing die. It is best to full-length resize each time to keep the brass “in size” throughout its useful life.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
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Great post, Greg
Greg, I agree with Hunter, this was a great write up. I shared this with some of my tactical buddies who really appreciated it. I had to learn this the hard way many years ago at a nationals when I let brass go too long. I had to keep screwing the die down to get it out of my chamber. When I finally put new brass in I was setting the shoulder back about .003. The other lesson was not to use a nationals to learn new things.
Scott
Greg, I agree with Hunter, this was a great write up. I shared this with some of my tactical buddies who really appreciated it. I had to learn this the hard way many years ago at a nationals when I let brass go too long. I had to keep screwing the die down to get it out of my chamber. When I finally put new brass in I was setting the shoulder back about .003. The other lesson was not to use a nationals to learn new things.
Scott
Boyd Allen
Active member
Years, make that decades back, I did a little experiment. A PPC case had gotten clicky and so I seated an unimportant bullet, and chucked the case in my drill, by its neck I then positioned the bottom side of its head against a support, spun up the drill, and used a coarse diamond lap held parallel with the cases longitudinal axis, to remove a couple of thousandths from its diameter, just in front of the extractor groove, diminishing forward with the angle of the case body. After that, I polished the abraded area with some 0000, pulled the bullet, and put the case back in service for barrel fouling after the cleaning and the like. The click never came back. The loads that I subsiquently shot were the same as before.
Some time after that, I had a case with a similar problem, this time I took a different approach. My die is a Harrell's Varibase that has screw in tapered base bushings, that came in increments of .001. I typically use one that gives about .0005 worth of sizing where the very back of the case is in the chamber. The shell holder had been shortened by.014 so with proper bump, I had a small gap to work with. I should mention that the base bushing have the nearest to no chamfer or radius that I have ever seen on a die. In any case, hoping that I would not overload the fine threads, I unscrewed the bushing a little, just to the point where it touched the top of the shell holder, with no toggling at all. (not wanting to push my luck any farther). After sizing with that setup, the click went away, so I surmised that the problem had been die coverage vs. chamber coverage, just above the extractor groove. My reamer is an old Pacific Boyer #2 and a bit close in back. Recently I have been trying a chamber that requires a base bushing that is .002 larger to get the same amount of sizing. I expect that I may not get to a click with it, given that my usual loads are usually one down from top node.
Some time after that, I had a case with a similar problem, this time I took a different approach. My die is a Harrell's Varibase that has screw in tapered base bushings, that came in increments of .001. I typically use one that gives about .0005 worth of sizing where the very back of the case is in the chamber. The shell holder had been shortened by.014 so with proper bump, I had a small gap to work with. I should mention that the base bushing have the nearest to no chamfer or radius that I have ever seen on a die. In any case, hoping that I would not overload the fine threads, I unscrewed the bushing a little, just to the point where it touched the top of the shell holder, with no toggling at all. (not wanting to push my luck any farther). After sizing with that setup, the click went away, so I surmised that the problem had been die coverage vs. chamber coverage, just above the extractor groove. My reamer is an old Pacific Boyer #2 and a bit close in back. Recently I have been trying a chamber that requires a base bushing that is .002 larger to get the same amount of sizing. I expect that I may not get to a click with it, given that my usual loads are usually one down from top node.
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Please contact
Mike Bryant...can you contact me please? I'm a former "very" satisfied customer and would like to ask your advice. Please e-mail me at glimw@bellsouth.net
Thanks,
Mike Gilreath
Mike Bryant...can you contact me please? I'm a former "very" satisfied customer and would like to ask your advice. Please e-mail me at glimw@bellsouth.net
Thanks,
Mike Gilreath
Dave Tooley
Active member
Furthermore, the practice of neck sizing the brass for multiple reloadings...with subsequent full-length resizing once the brass gets tight will reduce the useful life of the brass. What typically happens is the brass becomes work-hardened to the chamber size and won’t squeeze down sufficiently with a full-length resizing die. It is best to full-length resize each time to keep the brass “in size” throughout its useful life.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.[/QUOTE]
Greg is correct as usual. I have brass I've used in 3 different barrels and the only way to achieve this is FL sizing each and every time. Once it develops a memory/work hardens nothing will help. Neck sizing is one of many out dated techniques that just won't go away.
Dave Tooley
Tooley Custom Rifles
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.[/QUOTE]
Greg is correct as usual. I have brass I've used in 3 different barrels and the only way to achieve this is FL sizing each and every time. Once it develops a memory/work hardens nothing will help. Neck sizing is one of many out dated techniques that just won't go away.
Dave Tooley
Tooley Custom Rifles
I'm one of those guys that neck size but if I still competed I believe that I would swap to full length sizing. Everybody was neck sizing so that's what I did knowing full well that if a rifle would shoot a winning agg it didn't care what the shooter did. It simply never occurred to me that FL sizing was a way to go.
I had an entire arsenal of doo-dads that got me through a match when the cases got tight...and it never came to mind that in some cases I was FL sizing using two dies. Shot the same size groups no matter what I did.
I had an entire arsenal of doo-dads that got me through a match when the cases got tight...and it never came to mind that in some cases I was FL sizing using two dies. Shot the same size groups no matter what I did.
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Gun manners with clicks is why aggs get bigger. Pulling your gun from the rest or beating on the bolt handle each shot makes for a hectic group. As does cleaning the blown primer disk from the bolt raceway
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
It's not unusual (in fact, it's common) for me to measure the same thing more than once and get more than one reading on my digital calipers -- by as much as .002. Is that likely because I don't know how to measure or because of cheap calipers? Is it common for you guys to get the same measurement every time?
Gene Beggs
Active member
Fantastic! Should be chiseled in stone!
Greg, you are absolutely right in everything you say and you worded it extremely well!
Folks, everyone should file this away in "My Documents" and share it with anyone having trouble with loaded rounds going into the rifle and/or 'click-at-the-top' extraction of fired cases. This is golden!
Gene Beggs
Greg, you are absolutely right in everything you say and you worded it extremely well!
Folks, everyone should file this away in "My Documents" and share it with anyone having trouble with loaded rounds going into the rifle and/or 'click-at-the-top' extraction of fired cases.
This is golden!Gene Beggs