The Calfee Effect

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Beau

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Calfee could make a post that we consider giving money or toys to needy kids during Christmas, and you would have the anti-calfee contingent (two in particular) who would come out saying "Advertising, advertising, it isn't fair and I've been forced against my will to read it."

If I was going to hold so much animosity against one person I dang sure wouldn't keep a website up in their honor.
 
Beau
If you get a chance do a search for any post with Calfee in its title.It doesn't even matter if Bill has a single thing to say in the entire post it will get alot of hits.
Now look up the number of hits by the two posters you mentioned in any of there best posts.
It is blatanly clear who the viewers on this website want to hear from.
Waterboy
 
Lynn,

I know what you're saying, but I need to make it clear, I didn't mention anybody. Shoe fits wear it I guess.
 
i know why calfee uses,Beau and only accepts fax..for a lot of the same reasons that you can't pick up the phone and call Tiger Woods about yer
bad ass Slice !!
after spending around a hundred hours in a once upon a time TOP rimfire smiths shop, i understand, ya gotta be there to understand a day in the life of a gunsmith..i don't know how they ever get anything done when one quarter of the day or more they are on the phone with ornery suppliers and tracking down obsolete parts, new customers, disgruntled customers, ones looking for tips and tricks and secrets..those that want to brag or just bull...and then the drop ins like me ...too much valuable time lost and away from the actual work..they gotta distance themselves some way just to get work done. like it or not this down time raises the prices, to get a paycheck the guns have to get out the door.
Calfee is without a doubt a true rimfire pioneer and will go into the history books with Karl Kenyon, Lones wigger,and others of which I'm not worthy to carry their ammo boxes..
with calfee we have a cult like following, like Harley Davidson, rolex watches and such...it's great for those with the funds to acquire these, the others like me get a little jealous and start looking for openings to take pot shots.

to most calfee moves in mysterious way, his wonders to perform !
Beau, you have a cool head, broad shoulders and the patience of Job !
Calfee shows his arrogance by proving he can price a rifle as high as he wants
and it will sell instantly, this only leaves more openings and adds more fuel to the FIRE, i think he did it as self defense or striking back at his critics,but it's just making the criticism WORSE, it's a sad thing to see such a great man get caught up in the storm..he deserves our respect for his work, but shoots himself in the foot with his antics.
Bill Calfee your one of the best, and Beau you have my respect also but dang unless someone swallows some pride and changes things, i see no end to the bickering and in-fighting...
forgive if I've offended anyone....
gambler
 
Gambler,

You make some good points, but I have to disagree with you about the price. If someone is willing to pay that price, the gun is worth it. It may be only one person, but it's a willing buyer and a willing seller. That's the definition of fair market value. Nobody is forced to buy or sell. So, I don't think he shows his arrogance by doing that. It is true that he does not normally make it public; however, in this case he had a legitimate reason. You know what they say "it ain't personal, it's just business."

It's interesting the way people see things. Many think Calfee will make big money on the book and he will never see one dime. As a matter of fact, there will likely be a small loss, which is fine because it will be almost break even. Douglas Rome wanted to make the information available to all those who wanted it in a nice bound book, and he took it on himself to do that. I don't think he worships Calfee; he just wanted to preserve the information. I say Kudos to him. Anybody want to call that advertising, that's fine too, but I'm just giving recognition to someone who deserves it.
 
Gambler
I think it was the rimfire shooters buying a Calfee rifle and making large sums of money on its resale that started the problem.
If you can buy a gun for $3000 and sell it after shooting it for $5000 its a no brainer what is going to happen.
A sharp guy could tell Bill he will front him $100,000 for parts then buy all of his built rifles for $2500 and just re-sell them at a huge profit.
It is the guys wanting an edge who paid more for a known shooter causing the price increase.
Waterboy
 
Beau said:
Gambler,

You make some good points, but I have to disagree with you about the price. If someone is willing to pay that price, the gun is worth it. It may be only one person, but it's a willing buyer and a willing seller. That's the definition of fair market value. Nobody is forced to buy or sell. So, I don't think he shows his arrogance by doing that. It is true that he does not normally make it public; however, in this case he had a legitimate reason. You know what they say "it ain't personal, it's just business."

Beau
That is one thing I agree with 100%, It is worth whatever someone is willing to pay and if someone didn't think it would give them an advantage they woudn't be paying it.

Want to give it a try? Anyone can list a rifle and put whatever price you want on it....will it sell? Bill or anyone else in that position earned it.

How many folks do you know who have bought and sold a bunch of rifles looking for that shooter. Someone feels they can get past that process and are willing to pay for it.

It does make for interesting talk and gossip...it is what it is.
Charlie
Click to expand...
 
Back when Mr. C was much more accessable to his friends and clientele he once told me that he simply couldn't believe just how much his guns were selling for in the Classifieds. At that time one of our shooters was getting out of competitive shooting for health reasons and had put both a Calfee-built Sporter and Heavy gun up for sale in the Classifieds at a price of $10,000.00 for the pair. Neither gun had ever won a match of any consequence, let alone being any type of proven shooter. Man, oh man, the comments that were flying around on this forum went totally ballistic about what this guy was asking. I mean; Can you imagine ever paying $10,000.00 for a pair of USED guns? But, you know what? Both guns sold! And that was that. It was the beginning of the end for ever being able to aquire any type of used Calfee-built gun at any where near a reasonable price. And others soon followed.

Because of this, I have to agree with what Beau, gambler and Lynn have said. Bill would be an absolute fool not to charge a premium for his guns, especially now that he can take the time to build his guns exactly the way that he wants to using nothing more, or less than his own knowledge of what it takes to build a winner, then thoroughly test them to the point of challenging that knowledge to see if there could possibly be a better way, then reworking any areas that he either never had the time to rework on before, or maybe had never even thought of before, to help create a one-of-a-kind Masterpiece of Prefection.

When it comes to rimfires, let's face it, the man's a genius. In the time that I have known Bill he has done nothing more than try to better the way that we all shoot, and has been unbelievably generous to a fault with wanting to share ever single concept and/or idea that he has ever come up with along the way. Some times these ideas were shared to help enlighten us, and other times they were shared to help create discussion so that maybe even he could find something new out. Oh sure, his techniques and style of writing may have left something to be desired. But, what more could we as shooters ask for when we as a group are looking for nothing less than the absolute best! And how did some of us repay him? By ridiculing his demeanor, and with shear attacks on his character, enough so to get him, and not his attackers, ban from this forum.

Mr. Calfee, thank you for everything that you have done, or tried to do for us here, and elsewhere. And I will always consider you as being one my friends.

Your Friend,

Dave Shattuck
 
if calfee guns are selling for Real FAIR MARKET VALUE , the the rest of the
big five should price theirs in the same level, Eck, Gorham, Davis, Meyers,Voelker start charging the same Fair Price !!!..then see what happens to our sport....
i don't buy this fair market value theory....anyone can add up the cost of the very same components and plainly see what the balance is.
the lowly twenty two was not meant to be a rich mans sport, but some would
make it so, if feel sorry for all the back yard rimfire shooters that think they
want to start out on the QUEST FOR RIMFIRE ACCURACY.
the high cost and availability of ammo will weed out all but the RICH and dedicated
 
Gambler:

What kind of BR rifles are you shooting..?? Who made yours..??

As I said in an earlier thread, I think a lot of the animosity towards Bill Calfee is nothing but jealousy.. People can't afford a Calfee rifle, so they feel neccessary to degrade Bill Calfee and his rifles.. And NO, I don't shoot a Calfee Rifle either, but I do respect Bill Calfee and all he has done for our sport..

Dave
 
calfee is a great gunsmith, got that !!!!!

i said in earlier post, calfee is a true pioneer and should be respected !!
it's other people's definition of Fair and what it is doing to the sport, why the heck do you think there are so many folks trying to make a bench gun from a CZ ???????
i had lunch with a gunsmith at ARA nationals that won't loose sight of real fair market value, Brian Voelker.....and i don't think Roger Brock will get caught up in the price game, among others !
i shot a 13 1/2 lb Remington 37 and a 10 1/2 lb 40X before my trip to the dark-side, the gun I'm working on now might make a killer sporter if i want to
cut it up, Kent Owens did it with one....don't know yet, i don't know if i even want to come back to
a world of ridiculous, artificial inflated madness.. i got over the "WHO built MY gun trip" a while back..if it shoots and didn't cost $11,350 suits me fine
 
Unless Dan Killough hasn't updated his website in the last few weeks there is a Calfee 40X, Calfee barrel, McMillan stock, Tuckerized Weaver T-36, Fudd Tuner, Davidson style bases and who knows what else for $2500.00. Yes that is $2500.00. So all guns aren't unaffordable. I think at that price it would be a great starting gun for someone interested in moving into an actual BR gun.

Carp
 
gambler said:
if calfee guns are selling for Real FAIR MARKET VALUE , the the rest of the
big five should price theirs in the same level, Eck, Gorham, Davis, Meyers,Voelker start charging the same
Click to expand...

Market value is what a buyer will pay of his own volition (meaning he's not forced).

There's no telling what any rifle will sell for until the market is tested. Suggesting that these other builders "should" be able to price their wares at the same level is no guarantee that they will sell. Only the market will determine that.
 
gambler said:
if calfee guns are selling for Real FAIR MARKET VALUE , the the rest of the
big five should price theirs in the same level, Eck, Gorham, Davis, Meyers,Voelker start charging the same Fair Price !!!..then see what happens to our sport....
i don't buy this fair market value theory....anyone can add up the cost of the very same components and plainly see what the balance is.
the lowly twenty two was not meant to be a rich mans sport, but some would
make it so, if feel sorry for all the back yard rimfire shooters that think they
want to start out on the QUEST FOR RIMFIRE ACCURACY.
the high cost and availability of ammo will weed out all but the RICH and dedicated
Click to expand...

Gambler,

Fair market value (FMV) is the market value of an item, based on what a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller. It's not set; it's arrived at. If I made a rifle it would not have the FMV that Calfee or others have; it would have none except maybe for parts. Now maybe other gunsmiths have a greater FMV than they realize and maybe they don't. If they are selling at below FMV it's called "leaving it on the table."
 
Great Idea

Next hurricane that hits somewhere, I will be on the spot with a truckload of bottled water at $20.00 a gallon. The authorities usually have a problem with what thay deem "predatory" pricing but The Calfee Effect will be my defense. Fair market value and our free enterprise system, great concepts.
 
Unpressured?

Based on that logic, any miracle drug or cure for cancer will have to sell for $1.99 to those afflicted. Any bets on that happening?

Wonder what the "unpressured" Tony Boyer will be paying?
 
In real estate there is a theory that land developers use it is called the "Greater Fool Theory".

It works like this: A group of real estate investors buy a farm at what the farmer thinks of as an inflated price. He could never grow enough stuff to make it worth what these guys are willing to pay him. These investors know that they have paid too much but they are betting they will sell the land to a "Greater Fool".

This might work with fine rifles.

Concho Bill
 
hulk said:
Based on that logic, any miracle drug or cure for cancer will have to sell for $1.99 to those afflicted. Any bets on that happening?

Wonder what the "unpressured" Tony Boyer will be paying?
Click to expand...

Don't know, but I bet he didn't have to buy it.

Oh, and your logic doesn't hold. You would have an unwilling seller at $1.99.

The true FMV definition is tried and true. You can always point out what you feel are exceptions but they can always be countered. Even the $20 water is FMV; maybe even higher. The fact the government steps in does not change the economics. The supply of water simply diminishes.

Nobody ever made anybody buy a Calfee rifle.
 
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gambler said:
i said in earlier post, calfee is a true pioneer and should be respected !!
it's other people's definition of Fair and what it is doing to the sport, why the heck do you think there are so many folks trying to make a bench gun from a CZ ???????
i had lunch with a gunsmith at ARA nationals that won't loose sight of real fair market value, Brian Voelker.....and i don't think Roger Brock will get caught up in the price game, among others !
i shot a 13 1/2 lb Remington 37 and a 10 1/2 lb 40X before my trip to the dark-side, the gun I'm working on now might make a killer sporter if i want to
cut it up, Kent Owens did it with one....don't know yet, i don't know if i even want to come back to
a world of ridiculous, artificial inflated madness.. i got over the "WHO built MY gun trip" a while back..if it shoots and didn't cost $11,350 suits me fine
Click to expand...

"folks trying to make a bench gun from a CZ ???????"
I am not putting any dogs in any fights. I just built a CZ BR it all started by comming here to this Forum and seeing an odd looking barrel contour. Then seeing a name Calfee that came up with this thing so I wrote him a letter to find out about it. About a week later got a phone call from him and I have to say he seems to be a very nice guy and was very helpful and I said don't laugh its a CZ action I want to build he said "thats ok" and was very willing to pour out info to someone that wanted to learn. Its all new to me and I hope I can come here and learn things. I have not been to any matches but I will and will meet some of you. The only ones I have talked to are Don Stith, and Bill Calfee and Tim North, Gordon Eck that smithed my gun. Thay all were Very, Very nice and they new I did not know anything and was new to it all. But I was amazzed at how helpful they were and have a ginuine love for this sport.
Theron
 
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