Stray shots due to rests and bags ?

B

BJS6

Guest
Just after some feedback here based on the observations you guys have made trying different bags etc. Hoping to pick your brains and save a little time on the learning curve !!

I read about the unexplained high shot in Mike Ratigans book, the one when you raise the rest from the sighter to the record and the shot goes say half the mothball high. I noticed that myself. I decided to go way up past the record target over the top of the frame, settle the rifle in the rests and drop back down to the mothball. Guess what, the shot now goes low. At a shoot over the weekend I had several low first shots using this technique and then held down to suit, never once had an unexpected high first record shot. Maybe the secret is to get the rifle right on the mothball, work the rifle in the bags to settle it and swing the rest right and left a few times settling back on the mothball ??

Co-axial rest tension ? I started with my SEB rest pretty loose on the handle tension. Not so loose that the rifle lowered the rest but loose enough so the handle worked quite freely so as to be easy to make small adjustments. In parctice with this set up I noticed some vertical at times with loads that had just shot a couple of mid 0.1's. In the match I tightened the handle tension and did not notice any vertical except that first low shot mentioned above or that could be attributed to conditions, cerainly not at 100 when conditions were pretty good. Seems logical that if the rest was loose and one isn't really hanging onto the handle firmly the top could bounce down under recoil and cause a low shot. Is this something that is well understood and I have just never thought about it or am I possibly attributing some vertical to this when it could be load or condition influenced. Others must have noticed this with the popularity of the Farley ??

The rear bag inducing vertical ? I have read that the flat on the stock should not touch the area on the bag body between the ears. Seems reasonable. I have a Protektor bag that with the taller ears with support the stock away from the bag body so there is no contact on the flat on the bottom of the stock. I have a new Edgewood bag with a 3/8 flat between the ears to suit the 1/2 inch flat on my BRFB stock. When the stock is settled into the bag (ears packed pretty firm) the stock just touches on the bag body. It desn't rest on it, it is largely supported by the ears but also rides on the bag body. I don't see any difference between the bag where the stock touches the bag base and the one where it doesn't. Is the bag contact something that will show up routinely inducing vertical or is it maybe causing a shot to go out vertically now and again and I am not aware it is due to the stock ?? Is this an absolute no no or just something best judged on an indivudal basis depending on the bag hardness, how the ears are packed, how much weight rests on the base relative to what is supported on the ears.

With the front rest at a higher tension and the rear Edgewood bag just touching the bottom of the stock and the preferred load I shot a group at 200 that had maybe 0.10 of vertical and 0.356 all horizontal due to my wind reading. First shot went low, I then held in the middle of the mothball for the last 4 shots. Seems based on this and a few other very flat 200 yard groups as well as several low 2's at 100 the rest set up is doing OK. That said I don't like to take anything for granted if there is a chance I could be doing something wrong with the rests.

Your observations regarding these factors or other rest induced problems would be appreciated. Not a lot of discussion happens over this seemingly rather important aspect of BR shooting. Or am I over analysing and making more out of this than need be, is all this stuff not that critical .................. ??

Bryce
 
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Bryce

I believe that "bench technique" is one of the more over rated aspects of Benchrest.
It is easy to blame poor bench manners for errant shots when the culprit is simply that the Rifle isn't working.
I did an experiment one day a few years ago. I took some regular old sand bags and stacked them up to lay my rifles fore arm on. I then just placed a couple of bags under the butt stock, high enough so the Rifle was on the moth ball
I then took my time, watched the conditions, and shot a couple of groups. Naturally, the Rifle moved all around during the recoil, and I had to re-position it each time. But, the groups were just as tight as if I would have been using my regular rest and rear bag.
Sure, there is no way I would want to use that in a match, it took way to long to get back on POA. But it sort of showed me that all of this bag thing, as far as accuracy goes, is way over rated.
Agging capability in matches. Now, that is a different story.
Granted, you don't want to be wallowing all over the Rifle, or laying on a bench that is obviosly lacking in the "sturdy" department.
But the vast majority of Benchrest Shooters have pretty good bench tecnique, and know what is required. If you think about it, it isn't that much...If the Rifle is working......jackie
 
I think Jackie is right

Key word is "think".

What I do know for absolute certainty is that we're both wasting lektricity sayin' so. Ain't nobody buying that concept!

What else could it be if not me or my bags? I've got these groups here in my loading box to prove it ain't my rifle.

BTW, that first high shot coming from the sighter target will go away by itself in a few years.
 
Disagreeing with two better shooters than I requires that I give an example from another that is also (long list).

Some time ago ( last year, I think), I was at an unlimited match in Visalia (as a spectator, don't have a rail) when in a casual conversation it came up that the shooter that I was talking with was having a major problem with his bag gun. Some time later, I noticed that he had obviously fixed the problem, having placed well at a major match with it. After that, during a phone conversation on another matter, I asked him what the fix had been. I won't bore you with all the details, but he shoots a highly formed hard rear bag and had switched to a new "better" reinforced front bag. The problem went away when he went back to his original, conventional, front bag. Just a guess, but it would seem that for his rifle, two hard bags were one too many.

Several years ago, I was shooting a cordura fornt bag of the thin folded variety and decided that more sand would make it track better. It did, but it gave me about a bullet and a half of vertical that went away when I went back to less sand. (I removed the sand at the range and was shooting the same load.)

I think that in some cases that there is a conflict between what tracks best, and what shoots best. Speedy once told me that one of the McMillans (I forget which) once told him that one of the bags ( it didn't matter which) needed to be soft enough to provide some damping to the system.

I think that there are probably good shooters that have two bags that are hard, but I also think that each rifle is an individual, with its own requirements.

As to the high first record shot, try taking all of the side tension off of the front bag and see what happens.
 
"Speedy's" bag wisdom ...

SAND BAGS & HOW TO FILL THEM ... By Speedy

Back in the old days, about the time Fred Flintstone was still alive, I worked for Pat McMillan for free, from time to time to learn all his secrets.
One day little Speedy was filling some new sand bags out behind Pat's shop, stuffing them with more sand than Taco Bell put beans in their Burritos. When Pat stepped out the back door and inquired as to what in the hell was I doing packing them there bags the way I was.
I looked up at him with eyes like a kid with his hands in a cookie jar. My reply must have sounded like Homer Simpson "Doooh". Finally I said "I don't know, Boss. I just thought you were supposed to fill these babies up and go shoot.
I got that "You dumb bastard look" from Pat and I knew it was lecture time.
Speedy! Speedy! Speedy! (Now, I knew I had best go get a coke and a sandwich. We were gonna be here a while). This was what he told me.
You can not have two bags filled so hard that you gun bounces on them in the process of firing round at your target, especially if you have a rig with a very flexible stock. The bags must be set up in a manner for them to absorb the initial shock of the firing pin moving forward and igniting the primer. Then maintain their shape and absorb the second shock wave as well the rearward thrust and torque of the rifle.
What happens to the rifle when this is not done? Well let me tell you. The rifles have a very bad tendency to jump and roll in the bags. This causes many of those wild, lost shots that one can't explain. You know! The one that should have been in there and is now sitting all by itself like the red headed kid nobody likes. (I’m not talking about you Bill Dorsey, I still love ya man!)
Charles Huckaba, Ken Terrell, Larry Baggett and some of us Texas shooters talk about this phenomena quite often. We have all agreed that -

1 : You can not have two hard bags in your set up.
2: Heavy sand magnifies these phenomena.
3: If you are a bag squeezer, pack ears hard and leave bag pliable enough to squeeze for the movement required. You may pack front bag as hard as rules permit.
4: Free recoil shooters pack both bags firm, but not so hard as to allow stock jump. Especially if you have a stock with a very flexible forearm.
5: We use play ground sand also know as silica sand. I sift mine to get any large impurities out then mix it with 25% to 50% with Harts parakeet gravel to the desired hardness that I am looking for. The bird gravel keeps the sand from packing itself into that solid as a brick state. Speaking of bricks another thing that happens when shooters employ that heavy zircon sand is the ears form a low spot under them from recoil and then tend to rock back and forth with the rifle causing many low shoot to crop up. Edgewood make an Edgewood/Speedy rear bag these are specially reinforced under the ears to eliminate this scenario.
One last note if you use the new Cordura bags keep them sprayed with a good silicon spray or "Rain-Ex". This keeps them from getting sticky.

Well, Boss try that and see if it helps.

Speedy

P.S.: I do not like the double stitched leather bottoms. While this seems like a good idea, I see more shooters have problems because of them. They tend to slide around the bench and or slide with the rifle on recoil. The standard Protector with Cordura rabbit ears and an Otto ring bag with A Cordura front would be what I would suggest to the new shooter or one of the Edgewood / Speedy rear bags.

Taken from: http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Benchrest Basics.htm Art
 
the thing

The thing about rail guns is the points of contact between the gun and rest remain the same. This said a rest that best copies that will work best at not giving you that vertical shot, if the bags are filled as stated before. My rest raises the front bag at an angle to maintain the contact between the the stock and bag.
 
Front stop!!!

One thing I have seen shooters plagued with is the front stop, when going from sighter to record the angle that Bob Dodd speaks of changes, and on record your barrel may contact your front stop, when on sighter it didn't.

I don't use a front stop, I like to be able to get elevation by using the stock taper to my advantage by sliding back and forth.

Paul
 
Burning Question

When I shoot my .308 XR 100 factory rifle off my Caldwell Rock BR and Protector bag, I have learned to put just enough shoulder pressure on the stock and barley squeeze the rear bag before taking the shot. But.....

After the shot, I have to get "set up" all over again. I have put the baby powder on the bags like I was told to do. I have the front bag ears secure with the set screws and the forend against the stop on each shot. I stay in the gun through the shot.

Is this normal or the correct way to shoot wiath what I have? :confused:
 
Talon,

With what you have that is normal.

Bench guns RIDE the bags much better than factory rifles, for many reasons, chambering, stock design, rest design, just to mention a few.

Serious benchresters don't use the Caldwell, it has design flaws that have been discussed here before. Serious benchresters use custom stocks that have been proven to ride the bags better. Serious benchrest Cartridges are much lighter in recoil than the .308, and their rifles are heavier than the XR 100.

Paul
 
Thanks

I know that I should have posted in the Factory/Hybrid forum, but the topic seemed ok here.

If I ever get serious enough to take my shooting to the next level, the equipment will definately change. I will just be shooting some local informal matches for fun.

Thanks for the reply and good shooting. :D
 
The problem is the front to back contact change on the rear bag. The simple solution is to turn the rear bag backwards. The highest point of contact should be at the rear if you are losing the shot on the transition to the record. This problem is primarily seen at 100 and not at 200. The front rest and bag have very little impact on the rifle as compared to the rear bag. The exceptions are looseness and fore end stops. If you have to choose, spend your time fiddling with the rear bag instead of big bucks on front rests.
 
Thanks for the feedback, observations and suggestions guys. I am really pleased to see some good replies here, it is usually a subject that doesn't get talked about as much as the fun stuff like boat tail bullets and neck turning !!!

Keep it coming .........
 
jackie schmidt said:
I did an experiment one day a few years ago. I took some regular old sand bags and stacked them up to lay my rifles fore arm on. I then just placed a couple of bags under the butt stock, high enough so the Rifle was on the moth ball
Click to expand...

Thank you for this information Jackie. I find it very interesting.
 
Bryce

I may have left you with the impression that bags and gun handling were not important.That is not what I had in mind. I was trying to convey that the vast majority of Benchrest Shooters already have some sort of "state of the art" bag and front rest. They are usually not the source of big groups.
My rear bag is as hard as a rock. It is an old Bald Eagle that I bought used in 1976. I have always heard that it needs to be soft, but I be darned if I can see any detrament.
I tried a soft bag once, and the Rifle kept settling in it upon every shot. I went back to old reliable.
One thing I do use is a nice 1" thick Do-Nut that Jay Lynn Gore made for me about 4 years ago. It keeps that rear bag dead stable, on any bench top
Every now and then I will "fluff up"the front bag, but most of the time I just slide the Rifle in and shoot.
Many times,shooters will go through a bad spell, can't get a decent barrel, got some bullets that seem to not want to associate with each other on the target, or just demons in general. Tuning woes are probably the biggest culprit.
Anyway, they try something, and things seem to get better. Then it becomes fact. Or at least to them, it becomes fact. This is how some good ideas are concieved, and it is also how many "old wives tales" are born
There is a lot of that going around.........jackie
 
I hear what you are saying Jackie.

I have in the past crawled all over a rifle stock, push it onto target from a misaligned position from one side and then from the other and then with more shoulder pressure and then cheek pressure. Not with a BR gun mind you but pretty decently accurate varmint rifles, every time I tried to "force" an error by doing things that people say one should never do the bullets just kept piling into the group !

Obviously there is a limit to what one can get away with and still have BR accuracy but I suspect you are right in what you are saying. If one was having "bag trouble" and then handed a really hot shooting rifle in the same type of stock I'd imagine a lot of their problems would have sorted themselves out on the spot !!

That said, I am all ears for any input that people have regarding this stuff, I am more than happy to try stuff for myself and decide what applies to me and my rifle and rests and what doesn't.

Like I said, I am just glad that in amongst all the hooplah about tuners, barrel contours, boat tails vs flat base, N133 vs T32, March vs 45 Leupold etc etc that people are willing to talk about the humble sand bag. I have asked similar questions in the past and had no takers. Maybe people over there are getting stale on the detail and are looking at the nuts and bolts of shooting now that your season is upon you !! ???

Good luck to you guys in your shooting and thanks for the feedback and ideas.

Bryce
 
Interesting article by Speedy about Pat.

Two hard bags equal flyers according to them. I'm going to take a bit of sand out of my front bag and see if those guys are correct. I think my front bag is too hard and has been causing me some grief. I had several .3 groups at the Cactus that shouldn't have been so. The flags didn't change yet I kept having surprises. Drives a man to postal solutions!
 
My Wild Shots

If you have a XR100 in .223 do a chamber casting they are chambered off from the center line of the bore. I had one that would not group and did a chamber casting an found that the lands ran all the way to the case neck on one side and about .050 up on the other side. I sent it back to Remington they said they would fix it. but after two mounths i called them they said they were wating on a barrel assembly. I bouth another one to rebarreled to 17 Fireball. Did a chamber casting on that one and found it had the same problem SN was 2347 higher. Called Remington and told them what i had found. They told me that it is a discouned rifle that no part are avable so they would not fix them so what did i whant them to do with the one they had. Not a very good way to run a bussnes.
 
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