sporter tuning

[mwezell]

Let's keep the conversation on the principles of tuning, shall we?

Keith

I too would like to see this thread stay on point and contain good information. As you can see, I'm trying pretty hard to do just that. There are several different methods and theories on this subject. Clearing the air is what it should be about, IMHO..even if we don't all agree.
Until someone steps up and explains all of whats going on here, backed by scientific proof...it's conjecture. That's not necessarily bad if it's presented as such.

 

[mks]

Hmmm, my 2500X was tuned last Feb up here in NY (meaning figgin' cold), I shot it thru spring summer and fall, from Maine to South Carolina, from the Catskill mountains to coastal SC. Never touched the tuner. It shot consistently well regardless of temp, elevation or humidity. I know the cause of every miss; misjudging the wind or mirage. You know what I would call a shooter that adjusted their tuner based on temperature - clueless.

Bill,
Did your rifle shot to the same point of aim, as well, through all these condition differences?

I have found that tuning a 22RF is more difficult than a CF, or maybe more correctly, it is harder to tell whether it's tuned. With a CF that is capable of zero's or one's at 100 yards, it is evident with just a few shots what small changes in tuner setting does to the group. The group will change from horizontal to round to vertical by small adjustments of the tuner. And you can see the effect of a change in temperature. With a 22RF that is much less accurate and more sensitive to the wind, it is hard to dig the effect of tuner adjustments out of the noise. So you could be right that I am clueless, not that tuning doesn't work, but that it isn't worth the effort with a 22RF.

Still, some 22RF shooters come to a match with several different lots of ammo, not unlike CF shooters who are constantly changing powder charge to keep tune. So 22RF shooters chase tune, as well. Some in both disciplines have learned to tune with a tuner.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[MIKECAMERON]

For what it's worth,pinning a gun is a prime example of a CF technique that's worthless in the RF world. I've never seen, even heard of a top flight shooter doing this and it's something I have always paid attention to.
There's 3 ways to shoot a .22, be it sporter or heavy gun, free recoil, light hold, moderate hold.
Pin it or firmly hold it with shoulder you won't be consistant over the long run IMHO.
One of the great things about IR Sporter shooting is that you will learn volumes about .22 BR gun handling that usually translate well to heavy wguns shot over 2 piece rests.

It was told to me that DJ helper held his gun as firmly against the stop as possible, both sporter and heavy, I have done the same thing several times just experimenting and found that if I could hold it consistently my rifle held vertical a little better, but if you let off just a smidgen you get a flyer,also it is very easy to change POA so you have to have really good concentration. I guess DJ was really good at holding it consistently, there is no doubt that he was one of if not the best shooters ever.
MC

 

[Bill B]

Were you shooting the same ammo at all times?
I'm sorry you feel that I'm clueless. The method I use has worked well for me, though...and I'm happy that your's works for you.--Mike Ezell

For the most part I was. I was shooting ammo that I bought in 2013. I found a couple lots that shot well. Same tuner setting for all lots of ammo that I shot in this rifle. I don't change for ammo lots or temp. I just don't touch it once it is tuned, there's just no need for it. I didn't mean clueless to be a put down, I spent many years in this game clueless myself. I was once a tuner twister, shooting bad ammo thru bad barrels and not knowing what was wrong so I twisted the tuner and sometimes it would shoot ok and other times not. Here's what you need to tune a rifle: A good barrel with a good chamber and known great ammo. Trying to tune a rifle without all of these things is an exercise in futility. Once you have all the pieces in place, tuning is a pretty simple process and, once tuned, there's no need to touch it again.

 

[tim]

It was told to me that DJ helper held his gun as firmly against the stop as possible, both sporter and heavy, I have done the same thing several times just experimenting and found that if I could hold it consistently my rifle held vertical a little better, but if you let off just a smidgen you get a flyer,also it is very easy to change POA so you have to have really good concentration. I guess DJ was really good at holding it consistently, there is no doubt that he was one of if not the best shooters ever.
MC

I shot and watched him several times. I had the impression he held it firmly, as did his dad. That, strictly speaking is not pinning it, as I understand it. It means firm pressure with the shoulder combined with hold so little or no recoil is permitted.

 

[tim]

I too would like to see this thread stay on point and contain good information. As you can see, I'm trying pretty hard to do just that. There are several different methods and theories on this subject. Clearing the air is what it should be about, IMHO..even if we don't all agree.
Until someone steps up and explains all of whats going on here, backed by scientific proof...it's conjecture. That's not necessarily bad if it's presented as such.

I doubt anybody is going to be doing that anytime soon, if ever. Just like CF, sometimes it boils down to qualified opinions, or educated guesses.
I tend to believe the examples given about some of this stuff involved guns not properly tuned to begin with. The gun I shot the longest hadn't chenged one click from new and it performed at a high level hot cold and everywhere in between. Same with my current #1 gun. And both shoot/shot several lots and a fair speed variance.
The example I gave with sporters is precisely the point. Why do the very good ones perform at a high level very consitstantly? They shoot, often, at the level of heavy guns yet they cannot be tuned. Again my best sporter shoots several lots pretty good. Lots of these guns tend to like some lots over others, as much because of OAL as it applies to chamber particulars.
Want to try a little experiment, find a lot your gun likes, a lot that does not do as well,and as you run a card, look at your chamber to see what's going on. I'd wager you will see some interesting things.

 

[Bill B]

Bill,
Did your rifle shot to the same point of aim, as well, through all these condition differences?

I have found that tuning a 22RF is more difficult than a CF, or maybe more correctly, it is harder to tell whether it's tuned. With a CF that is capable of zero's or one's at 100 yards, it is evident with just a few shots what small changes in tuner setting does to the group. The group will change from horizontal to round to vertical by small adjustments of the tuner. And you can see the effect of a change in temperature. With a 22RF that is much less accurate and more sensitive to the wind, it is hard to dig the effect of tuner adjustments out of the noise. So you could be right that I am clueless, not that tuning doesn't work, but that it isn't worth the effort with a 22RF.

Still, some 22RF shooters come to a match with several different lots of ammo, not unlike CF shooters who are constantly changing powder charge to keep tune. So 22RF shooters chase tune, as well. Some in both disciplines have learned to tune with a tuner.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith, yes, it pretty much held POA, maybe a click on the scope adjustments here or there due to conditions, but that's it. I also will come to the range with several lots of ammo and some days one lot will work better than another. Though my best ammo seemed to work in most conditions. I once thought a couple clicks on the tuner made a difference, but that was when I was trying to tune a bad barrel with a bad chamber and thinking that a couple clicks of the tuner was making a difference, as one group was tighter than another thru random dispersion. When I finally got to work with a good barrel and chamber, I learned a couple clicks on the tuner made virtually no difference. When tuning a rifle, I turn in and out by a full turn or two looking for obvious changes. Once an area looks promising, turning it in or out by first 1/2 turns then 1/4 turns will get get it dialed in. Once acceptable groups are obtained, I leave it and forget it. If you are not happy with the groups, no matter where you set it on the tuner, try adding weight and twisting again. If adding weight doesn't get you where you want to be, put on a new barrel and try again. You may be able to tune a guitar, a good rifle barrel, hell, you can even tune-a-fish - but you can't tune a tomato stake.

 

[HuskerP7M8]

I have found that tuning a 22RF is more difficult than a CF, or maybe more correctly, it is harder to tell whether it's tuned. With a CF that is capable of zero's or one's at 100 yards, it is evident with just a few shots what small changes in tuner setting does to the group. The group will change from horizontal to round to vertical by small adjustments of the tuner. And you can see the effect of a change in temperature. With a 22RF that is much less accurate and more sensitive to the wind, it is hard to dig the effect of tuner adjustments out of the noise. So you could be right that I am clueless, not that tuning doesn't work, but that it isn't worth the effort with a 22RF.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith,

You hit the nail on the head with the above statement and I've been preaching the same opinion for nearly 3 decades with almost always unpleasant consequences.

Calculating statistical correlations that prove you've made a "real" change in tune versus an "imaginary" one often requires several bricks of ammo and it's simply not practical for the majority of RF competitive shooters. There are some exceptions but this problem of poor inherent RF precision in conjunction with inadequate sample sizes explains perfectly why everyone posting their testing, or worse yet, their observations ends up with a different outcome than the next guy on the most controversial topics.

Landy

 

[tim]

Keith,

You hit the nail on the head with the above statement and I've been preaching the same opinion for nearly 3 decades with almost always unpleasant consequences.

Calculating statistical correlations that prove you've made a "real" change in tune versus an "imaginary" one often requires several bricks of ammo and it's simply not practical for the majority of RF competitive shooters. There are some exceptions but this problem of poor inherent RF precision in conjunction with inadequate sample sizes explains perfectly why everyone posting their testing, or worse yet, their observations ends up with a different outcome than the next guy on the most controversial topics.

Landy

There's another issue out there, Landy, and it's one that lots of guys don't recognise, won't admit, can't understand in the realm of frustrating issues with these little guns.
Plenty of guns out there are the kind that for whatever reason, are 248 guns and are tuned, maintained, whatever, but day in and day out.....it's rarely going to exceed that. Some guns are " occaisionally 250- moderate X count guns. And some are just plain weapons that come down the pike only rarely. To have one is a thing of beauty but the point compounding all this is, quite often, all the best ammo and technique expended on a 248 gun will drive you nuts, but the better able,you are to recognise this and make adjustments, the less frustrating it all is. Unfortunately, this is neither easy nor inexpensive, and it tends to lead many to less than valid conclusions IMHO.
In recent years we've attained better components, ammunition, and assembly techniques, but consistancy is still far less than optimum.

 

[mks]

Landy,
Thanks. I know that you know the tools necessary to identify real differences, and have put in the work to find them. Let me ask, do you use temperature, density altitude, humidity or any other measurements to tune your 22RF during a match?

Thanks,
Keith

 

[mks]

When tuning a rifle, I turn in and out by a full turn or two looking for obvious changes. Once an area looks promising, turning it in or out by first 1/2 turns then 1/4 turns will get get it dialed in.

Bill,
That is pretty much the procedure for CF, as well, for the major changes. But during a match as conditions change, we twist the tuner 1/32 or even 1/64th of a turn at a time. 1/4 turn is huge, like moving from one tuning window to another. I tend to think that the same strategy would be advantageous for 22RF, but it is hard to tell one setting from another because of the scatter.

Keith

 

[mks]

Mike,
What is your experience with tuning 22RF? Have you found any benefit to adjustments during a match, and have you found this to be a good alternative to switching ammo?

Thanks,
Keith

 

[Bill B]

Bill,
That is pretty much the procedure for CF, as well, for the major changes. But during a match as conditions change, we twist the tuner 1/32 or even 1/64th of a turn at a time. 1/4 turn is huge, like moving from one tuning window to another. I tend to think that the same strategy would be advantageous for 22RF, but it is hard to tell one setting from another because of the scatter.

Keith

In decent conditions, with a good rifle/ammo combo you should be getting plenty of groups in the .1" - .2" range without much scatter. That's good enough to be in the thick of things in most matches. If you miss, so long as the miss appears to be one of misjudging the hold and not a WTF type of miss than you have found the right tune but just missed the proper hold. The trick is knowing the reason for the miss. If a condition like a 5mph right to left results in a miss down and to the right, you got problems, but if it just pushes it a little up and to the left just outside the 10 or 100 ring (depending on the game you play) then you may have the right tune, but just missed the hold for the condition. After years of experience, many of us here know what level of accuracy can be attained/expected and are able to figure out the reason when we don't get the results that we know are possible. In short, you shouldn't be getting or expecting scatter. One ragged hole groups are not unusual when it all comes together. If you are struggling, seek out the help of a more experienced and successful rimfire shooter to shoot and evaluate your equipment, ammo and tune.

 

[GordonE]

2nd what Landy said

 

[mwezell]

Mike,
What is your experience with tuning 22RF? Have you found any benefit to adjustments during a match, and have you found this to be a good alternative to switching ammo?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith, there are lots of variables at play in this discussion, which adds to the confusion, IMO. There's the rf vs cf issue for starters. With that comes differences in tuner designs, rifles, rests, and the several different methods by which people go about tuning.

First, let me describe how I tune my cf rifles, starting with load development.
I start with my tuner set about a full turn from bottom and don't touch the tuner during load work-up. Once a good load is settled upon...in whatever conditions I had to work with, I'm very satisfied after 8 years of using a tuner in CF, that I can maintain that high level of tune, USING THAT SAME LOAD, wherever and in whatever conditions, by very small tuner adjustments. When or if I adjust the tuner is most always decided on the warmup for the FIRST TARGET of the day. Often, it needs nothing, but when it does, I have found the window of adjustment for this particular gun/barrel to be within ONLY 2-3 marks on the tuner. That window represents how far I need to move the tuner to take the gun from completely tuned to completely out of tune. The gun shoots very well, as in zero's and ones when tuned and conditions don't surpass skill.. Groups from this gun when completely OUT of tune are in the high 3's to low 4's. This is important! Because, once you know what completely in and out of tune look like, for your rifle, AND the corresponding tuner settings for both, then it's a matter of moving "something less" than that 2-3 marks that will take it from all the way in to all the way out of tune. Keep in mind, some tuners require somewhat larger movements to achieve the same thing, here...but it's still very similar.


An example...Let's say my rifle CAN shoot a flat .1 when tuned and a flat .4 when completely out of tune. Now let's say I shoot a couple of .25's on the sighter. Now lets say my tuner range is between tuner setting 1 and 3, from in tune to out.....I'd move the tuner to 2.
That's a simple explanation. Also, given this example and because the tune repeats itself, over and over, in this scenario, I could also find a good tune at either 0 or 4....but let's not worry with that yet. My tuners use a 32tpi thread and have 32 marks on them, now. This equates to basically .001" tuner movement per mark. Amazing that it makes a difference, but it's absolutely clear as day.

Now, to answer your question, Yes, I use my rimfire tuners in the same way. The biggest difference I find is that the range of adjustment is slightly more for rimfire, but not much...say 3-4 marks to achieve the same results as above.

This is not to say that other methods don't work, but this is what has worked for me and several others, and is how I recommend going about setting and using my tuners. Bottom line, tuners all work the same way and do the same thing, generally speaking of course. There are small differences in designs that alter it somewhat for others.

All that said, changing ammo in rf is IMO, a tuning tool. You can use this method or turn the tuner, assuming good ammo and gun.
Another thing, if I may, I don't see how going to a cf match with pre-loaded ammo is much different that shooting RF with a known good ammo. Either way, the ammo is a constant.

Some cf shooter set the tuner and leave it alone, but change loads at the match. Again, how is this different than changing ammo in rf?

Thanks!--Mike

 

[MIKECAMERON]

Mike,
What is your experience with tuning 22RF? Have you found any benefit to adjustments during a match, and have you found this to be a good alternative to switching ammo?

Thanks,
Keith

I use a VonAhrens tuner just because you can make changes during a match that will work, a harrels tuner moves much much too much weight to make them useful during a match.With a harrels you are much better to set it once and never touch it again, change velocity in ammo to bring it back into perfect tune as temp and moisture changes, but with a VonAhrens you are moving a 1/2 ounce and it makes it very adjustable to use the same ammo all the time and when your pattern cloverleafs you just make a 1/20th of a turn on the 1/2 ounce focus ring and bring it back to one hole, that way you can buy a bunch of one lot and shoot it at the top level anywhere and everywhere.
MC

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Tim and Bill,

I wouldn't disagree with anything you guys said in post #29 and post #33.
Skilled and experienced shooters are better able to make determinations of tune and estimate the potential of a rifle, but I also believe the number of shooters capable of doing this might be a fairly small segment of the RF BR community.
This can be a horribly frustrating sport if you're saddled with a poor shooting rifle and have no previous experience with the performance of great shooting rifles.

Landy

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Landy,
Thanks. I know that you know the tools necessary to identify real differences, and have put in the work to find them. Let me ask, do you use temperature, density altitude, humidity or any other measurements to tune your 22RF during a match?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith,

I track temp and density altitude when I test in the tunnel, but thus far I haven't been able to determine if it's a significant factor. Intuitively, I suspect temp and DA do factor in but maybe I don't have enough data and/or the effect is fairly small.
I also suspect that any effect may be more pronounced if we tested at longer distances than 50 yds/meters. Unfortunately, the non-linear increase in dispersion with increased distance for RF means the noise/scatter just about triples at 100 yds and still masks those effects. The other obvious problem, if you're a proponent of barrel compensation, is that a tune at 100 yds may not be the best tune at 50.

Whether it's right or wrong, I've found it advantageous for me to not mess with the rifle once I've determined its potential in my tunnel and know the range of scores I expect it to shoot. With the usual few exceptions the scores I've shot match fairly closely my predictions, regardless of temp/DA, unless mirage raises its ugly head as it's prone to do at some indoor venues.

Landy

 

[mwezell]

I use a VonAhrens tuner just because you can make changes during a match that will work, a harrels tuner moves much much too much weight to make them useful during a match.With a harrels you are much better to set it once and never touch it again, change velocity in ammo to bring it back into perfect tune as temp and moisture changes, but with a VonAhrens you are moving a 1/2 ounce and it makes it very adjustable to use the same ammo all the time and when your pattern cloverleafs you just make a 1/20th of a turn on the 1/2 ounce focus ring and bring it back to one hole, that way you can buy a bunch of one lot and shoot it at the top level anywhere and everywhere.
MC

That's how I use my tuner, Mike. Mine does not have clicks, so it can be moved in any size increments. A full mark is a pretty big swing most of the time. More typically, if I need to move the tuner during the course of a match, it's a fraction of a mark to keep up with condition changes. Same principle, though. The main thing, IMO, is that the adjustments give consistent and repeatable results.

That's the whole thing with tuners. They're simply much, much easier to use than to understand.

 

[MIKECAMERON]

Landy,
Thanks. I know that you know the tools necessary to identify real differences, and have put in the work to find them. Let me ask, do you use temperature, density altitude, humidity or any other measurements to tune your 22RF during a match?

Thanks,
Keith

Kieth, Bob Collins is working on a formula that uses all those parameters and then he calculates the speed of sound for those conditions and we are seeing a direct correlation to speed of sound and how it affects tune and what change to make(on a VonAhrens tuner) as the SOS increases versus decreases, it is pretty interesting and I think it will turn out to be the key to finding a tune spot determined on the SOS.Once we get that we should be able to calculate the SOS make our adjustment then be competitive for EVERY target.This thing would probably work on a Ezell tuner as well but with a much tickier smaller adjustment because of the amount of weight moving.
MC