Sporter/Hunter Class

C

cris

Guest
This is intended to be a second entry level rifle class for those that want or have something beyond the Production class rules.

3 key elements,

1. Fore end of stock less than 2.25 inches and in any shape but flat on the bottom.
2. No mechanical front rest, bags only.
3. Scope must be a maximum of 12X or capable of being set to that point.

No price limit.
No weight limit.
Up to 35 FPE
.177, .20, .22 and .25 caliber (to be scored with .22 caliber plug)

Naturally, these are simply a starting point for the rules. Any input or feedback is welcome.
 
In my opinion, if one were to look at the Sporter rules that exist currently in IR 50/50 and use them, one would have the right Sporter rifle. Those paramaters are what make the Sporter Class what it is, damn difficult to do well and the whole reason to have a Sporter Class.

Question: How difficult might it be to massage a 10M rifle up to the LV power? Is it a regulator thing, a pressure thing or both?
 
Regulator things are pressure things. Lots of 10m guns have been bumped up to 12 FPE or higher, the FWB P70 is an excellent example. The top end 10m guns are expensive and some are a challenge to use with a scope. In addition, as good as those barrels are at 10m with 6 FPE, that does not guarantee a seamless transition to 25m at 12 FPE.
 
Is there a reason why you don't just copy the ARA format and be done. Pretty sure any arguments could also be made on the rimfire side but consider that the ARA is relatively successful.

To save folks that aren't familiar with the ARA "format" some research time - you simply shoot what you have...win, lose or draw.

Perhaps there's an air rifle "catch" that I don't know about - in which case, please ignore...
 
Last edited:
Wilbur,

The ARA format is very successful and "you simply shoot what you have...win, lose or draw." is as simple as it gets. Simple because everything you can bring is a .22 caliber rimfire.

With air rifles, you have multiple calibers and varying power levels to drive those pellets. No experience here but it has been mentioned that you might not want to sit next to a .50 caliber air rifle capable to knocking down wild hogs.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
cris said:
Regulator things are pressure things. Lots of 10m guns have been bumped up to 12 FPE or higher, the FWB P70 is an excellent example. The top end 10m guns are expensive and some are a challenge to use with a scope. In addition, as good as those barrels are at 10m with 6 FPE, that does not guarantee a seamless transition to 25m at 12 FPE.
Click to expand...

I have noticed that an Air Arms 10M rifle that looks somewhat an EV2 is about half the price. It appears from the picture to have a similar trigger, etc. I have also noticed other rifles that were discribed as being 10M rifles that look to me like they might make a good Sporter. I would allow Flat 2.25" stocks If I were making the rules and the same power that is allowed in LV so they would be able to deliver @ 25M but I wouldn't allow any scope power beyond 6.5X. That, more then the weight of the rifle is what makes a Sporter a Sporter. You will hear a lot of folks say they can't see anything with a 6.5X, well guess what, most of us can't! :). That is the whole game. Most good RF Sporters would be competative in the other classes with a higher power scope.
 
I think MOST sporters in the shooting world have rounded fore-ends. Seems strange to disallow them.
 
Pete,

This new rifle class is intended for those that have or intend to purchase something they can use for multiple uses, FT, benchrest, hunting, etc.

A power limit of 12 FPE reduces the number of rifle choices to a very small number. These rifles are usually using more power and sometimes using the .25 caliber pellet.

A flat bottom stock is still a benchrest stock that is not quite as wide and not truly useful for those other purposes, not to mention, probably a custom piece.

Now, the 6.5X limit on the scope was my first option but was told that there is a FT class that also has a scope power limitation and that is 12X.

Thanks for your suggestions.
 
Steve,
I think what Wilbur meant was anybody can show up at a match and shoot with what they have as long as it's one of the calibers allowed, in one of the classes we already have. Since we have a UL class we already have a class for everybody. This new class you are proposing makes what? 6 classes? From a match directors point of view...enough already.

As far as the .25 scoring, my point was just that it's not possible to score a target using a plug that is smaller than the largest caliber allowed. I'd rather not see .25's allowed unless you want to plug everything with a .25 plug. 99% of all targets shot now are .177 and .22 and while I'd love to plug my EV-2 targets with a .25 plug, I don't really see that as fair.
I say stick with the 3 calibers already allowed.
 
cris said:
Pete,

This new rifle class is intended for those that have or intend to purchase something they can use for multiple uses, FT, benchrest, hunting, etc.

A power limit of 12 FPE reduces the number of rifle choices to a very small number. These rifles are usually using more power and sometimes using the .25 caliber pellet.

A flat bottom stock is still a benchrest stock that is not quite as wide and not truly useful for those other purposes, not to mention, probably a custom piece.

Now, the 6.5X limit on the scope was my first option but was told that there is a FT class that also has a scope power limitation and that is 12X.

Thanks for your suggestions.
Click to expand...

I see, I only think about benchrest and am not interested in the hunting classes. I have more then enough to keep me busy allready. :)
 
Pete,

The hope for this rifle class is to bring more shooters into air rifle benchrest. This is the type of air rifle many shooters already own and those looking to make a purchase seem to be attracted to.

For instance, the DaveG rifles that were at the Northeast Regional are great examples. Maybe some day, Dave will show us a dedicated benchrest action. For now, just some of the prettiest rifles that also shoot very well.
 
Chris,

As I understand the stock limitation you are saying that the bottom of the stock can not be flat. There are a number of rifles out there that might fit the class that have a flat fore end.

Crazy old man here but why not " A come and shoot with us bring what you have shoot the match have fun and if you do not fit one of the established classes due to the rules and it is not a purpose built match rifle. You will be put in either a unregulated class or an any rifle production class by the club match director.

Fine tuned and hard fast rules are great when folks are buying or putting together a rifle scope combination to play our game. If you are really trying to bring in shooters with existing plinker and hunting rifles your will eliminate more than will qualify with hard fast rules. We have several Mauraders a couple of Pnuemas and a old daystate none of which can fit the existing production class an certainly will not fit the new class without changing something or buying something to shoot. All of the shooters at the match for the most part can look at a shooter rig and rest and know that he has no chance of winning against other rifles in the existing class.

If you simply set unregulated from regulated rifles with a higher dollar limit you can include most every one. Not sure on the scope issue but you most consider many have scopes that can be set at a specific power and most of the FT guys that are shooting HUnter class have a scope of higher mag. that can be turned down.. Take the scope out of the equation and use regulated under x dollars for production and any rifle under x dollars for the new class. A new shooter has what he has and it is doubtful that if you try and put him in a box he will not fit hard fast rules that are necessary for a competitor who has made a decision to compete and will spend what ever it takes for one of the existing classes. I have been promoting the airgun sport and tried to recruit competitors without much success,the reason is not their equipment,it is that they are not competitors. There are millions of airguns and a tiny percentage have fired in any type of competition. I have stood in air gun stores talking to any one who even glanced at an air rifle. When I told them about out fun matches the response was a serious response " I am not interested in competition.

The class you are proposing will allow me to put my NJR in a factory stock use my front bag, turn down my scope and compete with rifles far less accurate. What's the point. The scope issue for Hunters may apply to FT hunter class but these guys are not hunters. This class was created basically to get away from the the shooting jackets and the Price rig. When a P70 was winning everything with a high dollar scope that did not have a 12 power mark on it, they kicked him out.

Been there done it all.
 
Bob,

I truly respect your experience in the area of air rifle competition. You have "been there done it all".

However, allow me to give you a personal perspective. I am relatively new to air rifles. My first air rifle was what you call "unregulated". When I made that buying decision, whether it was regulated or unregulated was not a consideration. My point, having a class for "unregulated" or "regulated" does not seem to be something that will attract shooters.

A Hunter/Sporter class is not perfect but for the great majority of air rifles that do not fit into the Production class due to the price limit, this seems to be a good fit. Shooters can tweak triggers, remove barrel bands, modify valving, replace hammer springs and anything else they like.

We could ask for a unmodified, factory stock but that might push away those that have a custom stock for FT.

Scopes with zooms can usually be set to a specific magnification and that would satisfy the hunters and the FT crowd. A scope without a mark at 12 power simply means we need match directors with better judgement than those who kicked this shooter out.

As far as, "hard fast rules", we either have them or we get rid of them, you can't have it both ways. Rules exist in FT, silhouette and your old game, it is the only way to have a level playing field.

Lastly, the bags, yes, shooters might have to purchase a new bag since their Caldwell rest would be a problem but if they can handle a high end, regulated air rifle, a bag might not be a big deal.

Ultimately, this all comes down to the match director. The "come and shoot with us bring what you have shoot the match have fun" is what we are striving for.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Chris,
I would guess in PCP rifles a huge percentage of them are not regulated and are priced something like a couple of hundred dollars less than a regulated rifle. In attracting new shooters. Lets say you own a rifle in the majority which is non regulated and you visit a match. Read about the game or are invited by a fellow air gunner. You show up knowing at best you are going to get a max of 30 shots or so that can be called accurate and really only about 20 that are super good. Your extreme spread is in the 40s to 60fps. You know that a regulated can produce many more accurate shots with a extreme spread that is much better. You see that you are going to shoot a 2mm circle for a 10, when your average group at 25 yards is close to 1/2 inch. You see the guys on the line in your assigned class with guns you know cost 200.00 more than yours. You are a real competitor though and hope to overcome the advantages and give it a go. Do you come back for more ass whooping.? You laid out a few dollars when you bought your rifle for a cheap Hoppes or other rest and you are told that you must have a leather bag and we will lend you one if there are two relays. You say to your self but this is a bench rest match and I have one, why do I want to spend almost the same additional dollars to duplicate what I already own and can not possibly offer me any real advantage. Your response then is ....I think I will just watch this time never to be seen again. If you have not given much thought, not being a hunter, why in the world would there be a bench rest competition with a limit on the scope. You say dam that may keep more people away than it will bring in. Will I have step down change every thing I am familiar with to compete with my common 6x18 or 8 to 24 to attract some hunters that could care less about shooting any thing that does not bleed and fall dead.

Oh well! You are going to have more shooters that will not fit a tight set of rules that will fit them. The world classes with tight rules are designed for our current shooters who do not give a minutes thought as to the cost of a hobby. I have been told this several times on the General Forum trying to attract air guns shooters from rim fire and center fire based on cost. The response is not favorable to say the least.

If we accept the facts of shooting. Not one in 100 are competitors. The proof of that statement is obvious if you look at the memberships of large shooting clubs. The non competitors far outnumber the competitors and without them the club could not stay open.

If we are get one of these few guys to show up to give it a go and they do not fit in yours mine or others view of what they should have purchased to play with us. We should not be surprised when they do not. The best example is the turn out for the Production Class. Which will be left with only a couple of shooters if the rules are not simplified. We have a difficult enough time in just finding a competitor without trying to change his mind as to the equipment he has invested in, to do what ever he did before we found him and fit him to our concept of what he should have purchased to play our game. Let em shoot what they got how ever they have been shooting, Separate them logically by how competitive they will be as a group. If they show up at a match and do not fit an existing class put them regulated or non regulated and see what happens. If some shining star emerges with out of the ordinary equipment tell them up front they will then have to move to another class due to a major advantage in the eyes of the local match director. If they shoot, which is the goal and see the accuracy of the higher dollar equipment, they will move up if we help them by letting them shoot. We moved a break barrel piston gun shooter up to a 2500.00 investment after he shot with us a couple of times. This was as much about fellowship, as it was that the gentleman is a competitor at heart. firing a 246 today with my EV-2 first time shooting a 12 ft lb. PCP. He bought a used hoppes rest for 20.00 Thank goodness he will not have to buy a leather bag for a front rest ( never seen used by plinkers or hunters that I have ever seen) Some how this front leather bag became legendary at the Words as it should have. But the shooter had more to do with the result than did the bag and I would bet he owned it and did not buy it in order to compete. I shoot one only because I was forced to buy it even though I own two rest neither of which would have given me any advantage if I was not not allowed twist the knobs.

Thanks for listening........ I do not envy the difficulty of a decision that will have a major impact to the future of air rifle bench rest competition. We have Larry Brown to thank for moving much of the bench rest competition away from group shooting to multiple bull targets, that is much more difficult. We have you to thank for stepping up and taking charge and allowing fellow shooters to give you input.

Bob Z
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bob,

I hate doing this but you have left me no choice but to read between the lines.

The crux of your position is that in the entry level rifle classes, Production and Hunter/Sporter, we should NOT have a "tight" set of rules.

You highlighted two areas of concern.

1. A "cheap" mechanical rest should be allowed, if no adjustment is made during the shooting period.

2. There should be no magnification limits on scopes.

If a shooter says his "cheap" rest has loose threads and he has to adjust only to get back to where he was when he began, is that inside the new rules?

If a shooter shows up with a 10-60X March scope on his Hunter/Sporter rifle, does that provide any advantage?

Given your rules, Dan Brown's FX Independence in the conventional, factory stock is legal in Hunter/Sporter class. Is that fair? What separates Hunter/Sporter from Open class?

Humor me for a moment. Please give me a simple, easy to understand, set of rules for these 2 rifle classes. Thanks for your time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top