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therealld
Guest
Ok, I get it too. You guys enjoy yourselves
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So...let's get back to that scoring thing...
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
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sgeorge
Guest
Lessons learned.
"if you are certain there's nothing wrong with changing scores after a match is over (any match) we're wasting electrons and should stop."
We sometimes have to agree to disagree.
"these sorts of things are best handled away from the eyes of the world."
This advice has been given before and bears repeating.
Lastly, it should be clear that there are more unsanctioned matches taking place than sanctioned matches. The rules only provide a framework for these shooters. We hope they follow the rules. We need to understand that for some, that is not part of their nature. As long as they are shooting our game and enjoying the experience, it's a good thing.
"if you are certain there's nothing wrong with changing scores after a match is over (any match) we're wasting electrons and should stop."
We sometimes have to agree to disagree.
"these sorts of things are best handled away from the eyes of the world."
This advice has been given before and bears repeating.
Lastly, it should be clear that there are more unsanctioned matches taking place than sanctioned matches. The rules only provide a framework for these shooters. We hope they follow the rules. We need to understand that for some, that is not part of their nature. As long as they are shooting our game and enjoying the experience, it's a good thing.
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shadowalker
Guest
Larry please understand we are an organazation steeped in tradition sence the first BR match was held in I believe in Vernon Vermont. We simply have rules cut in stone for a reason and do not like to see anyone participating in the sport getting taken advantage of. Now if you wish to enact re-scoring in or on your range at matches you hold...do it!
Just know that the entire Benchrest shooting fraternity clear to the top frowns heavily upon it and shall honor none of the scores.
Remember you came to our sport we did not come to yours. Please be kind and show some respect.
Frank
Just know that the entire Benchrest shooting fraternity clear to the top frowns heavily upon it and shall honor none of the scores.
Remember you came to our sport we did not come to yours. Please be kind and show some respect.
Frank
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shadowalker
Guest
I fully understand Wilber however he should have learned to score right in the first place and the situation never would have surfaced. Using his logic you could keep scoring the same target forever. Bob Z has it figured out and as flawless as it is going to be outside of electronics..................Larry has been at this game a long time and even hosted the match, one would assume with those credentals it would be a given he at least knew how to score.
Respectfully, Frank
Respectfully, Frank
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sgeorge
Guest
Wilbur,
My wish is to move on but you have made some good points that need to be addressed.
Yes, Larry was attempting to right a wrong. Every rule book speaks to protests and how to have a bull or target re-examined. In this case, Larry admits to re-scoring his own target. None of our business if he did, however, someone will infer if a shooter can re-score his own target, can a shooter score his own target initially? Furthermore, if a shooter can re-score his own target, how many times can this be done?
Fortunately, we have experienced match directors and shooters who recognize the potential temptations of a shooter scoring his own targets. Nevertheless, this is not spelled out specifically in the WRABF rules that we follow and I cannot find it specifically in IR50/50, ARA or RBA rules, which we use to help frame other issues and questions.
For sanctioned matches, there is no need to spell this out. For unsanctioned matches, it is none of our business.
During our qualifying last year for the 2011 World Championships, our rules called for a minimum of 2 shooters and that shooters could not score their own targets. Today, our rules for the 2012 World Postal and USA Scoreline say "8. Scoring will be done by experienced scorers and no shooter should score their own targets." Now it does not specifically say that a shooter should not re-score his own target but we really see no need.
The initial criticism of Larry was to point out these inequities and to distance ourselves from that scoring method. That lead us to where we were when you deleted the thread.
My wish is to move on but you have made some good points that need to be addressed.
Yes, Larry was attempting to right a wrong. Every rule book speaks to protests and how to have a bull or target re-examined. In this case, Larry admits to re-scoring his own target. None of our business if he did, however, someone will infer if a shooter can re-score his own target, can a shooter score his own target initially? Furthermore, if a shooter can re-score his own target, how many times can this be done?
Fortunately, we have experienced match directors and shooters who recognize the potential temptations of a shooter scoring his own targets. Nevertheless, this is not spelled out specifically in the WRABF rules that we follow and I cannot find it specifically in IR50/50, ARA or RBA rules, which we use to help frame other issues and questions.
For sanctioned matches, there is no need to spell this out. For unsanctioned matches, it is none of our business.
During our qualifying last year for the 2011 World Championships, our rules called for a minimum of 2 shooters and that shooters could not score their own targets. Today, our rules for the 2012 World Postal and USA Scoreline say "8. Scoring will be done by experienced scorers and no shooter should score their own targets." Now it does not specifically say that a shooter should not re-score his own target but we really see no need.
The initial criticism of Larry was to point out these inequities and to distance ourselves from that scoring method. That lead us to where we were when you deleted the thread.
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shadowalker
Guest
Steve good points. Wilber and LD have brought us to address a problem which is sure to rear it's head again if we do not intrigrate specifics into our scoring program. Old shooters realize that this issue is a given and needed not to be told. With new shooters coming into the sport it best be spelled out.
As we know the rules allow protests for a specific time after at a match by any shooter before the final scores are posted. You may wish to specify this amount of time so all are aware...................AND at no time can the shooter handle the target in question. I have seen many a dragged hole.
All protest rescoring should be done at the match. Simply put the targets are the property of the scorer till the protest time has expired and final scores posted.
After the match is over and scores posted the shooter can do whatever he or she wishes with the target.
Frank
As we know the rules allow protests for a specific time after at a match by any shooter before the final scores are posted. You may wish to specify this amount of time so all are aware...................AND at no time can the shooter handle the target in question. I have seen many a dragged hole.
All protest rescoring should be done at the match. Simply put the targets are the property of the scorer till the protest time has expired and final scores posted.
After the match is over and scores posted the shooter can do whatever he or she wishes with the target.
Frank
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shadowalker
Guest
Wilber Sir, I personally know of no rules that are enforced within the USARBR that are not stipulated within the World Association rulebook which is available on line. Steve may have more information than I and may be able to offer a more detailed answer. I am speaking here for only myself.
This discussion on scoring in my mind has brought to light items I believe are not covered and or addressed within the USABR or the world organization rules. As agonizing as this ordeal may have been it may be a blessing showing us such items need to be addressed. Our matches are in some cases much less formal with much fewer shooters than on a well founded and run match. My only concern is that the new rules be both formal and ridgid allowing the shooter and score person all opportunities for reconciliation as contained within the governing guidelines.
Respectfully, Frank
This discussion on scoring in my mind has brought to light items I believe are not covered and or addressed within the USABR or the world organization rules. As agonizing as this ordeal may have been it may be a blessing showing us such items need to be addressed. Our matches are in some cases much less formal with much fewer shooters than on a well founded and run match. My only concern is that the new rules be both formal and ridgid allowing the shooter and score person all opportunities for reconciliation as contained within the governing guidelines.
Respectfully, Frank
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Wannebe
Guest
All of this is all the more important if scores etc want to be entered for postal matches, ranking, etc etc. Let's say the "official" shooting.
If not and it is a local clube afternoon shoot, nobody could / would / should realy care. It is the same as me shooting in my own backyard then.
...... but all that has been said before also.
If not and it is a local clube afternoon shoot, nobody could / would / should realy care. It is the same as me shooting in my own backyard then.
...... but all that has been said before also.
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sgeorge
Guest
Wilbur,
The rules on our website are more of a synopsis of the full set of rules on the WRABF website. We are an affiliate country of that international organization. We do have some competitions and rifle classes that are our own.
You have categorized this situation as Larry attempting to right a wrong. Please be aware that this is only his account of the events. As was noted, he does shoot in his backyard and nobody really cares.
The rules on our website are more of a synopsis of the full set of rules on the WRABF website. We are an affiliate country of that international organization. We do have some competitions and rifle classes that are our own.
You have categorized this situation as Larry attempting to right a wrong. Please be aware that this is only his account of the events. As was noted, he does shoot in his backyard and nobody really cares.
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SciGuy
Guest
WRABF Rules
Section C4 thru C9 of the WRABF rules seem to address the vast majority of all the concerns that have been presented here. As Match Director of one of if not the newest sanctioned USARBR club, I certainly plan on adhering to the rules as spelled out by WRABF. Are there items of concern that are not covered in the aforementioned sections?
http://www.wrabf.com/rules/WRABF & ERABSF Rimfire RULEBOOK 2012-2013.pdf
Mike
Wilber Sir, I personally know of no rules that are enforced within the USARBR that are not stipulated within the World Association rulebook which is available on line. Steve may have more information than I and may be able to offer a more detailed answer. I am speaking here for only myself.
This discussion on scoring in my mind has brought to light items I believe are not covered and or addressed within the USABR or the world organization rules. As agonizing as this ordeal may have been it may be a blessing showing us such items need to be addressed. Our matches are in some cases much less formal with much fewer shooters than on a well founded and run match. My only concern is that the new rules be both formal and ridgid allowing the shooter and score person all opportunities for reconciliation as contained within the governing guidelines.
Respectfully, Frank
Section C4 thru C9 of the WRABF rules seem to address the vast majority of all the concerns that have been presented here. As Match Director of one of if not the newest sanctioned USARBR club, I certainly plan on adhering to the rules as spelled out by WRABF. Are there items of concern that are not covered in the aforementioned sections?
http://www.wrabf.com/rules/WRABF & ERABSF Rimfire RULEBOOK 2012-2013.pdf
Mike
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sgeorge
Guest
Mike,
Yes, you are correct. However, nothing specifically spells out that a shooter should not score his own targets. For instance, as a match director, I hope you take the opportunity to shoot at your own matches. What would be a problem is if you also scored your own targets.
It is not specifically spelled out in the rules since the WRABF expects match directors to use good judgement and good old common sense.
Yes, you are correct. However, nothing specifically spells out that a shooter should not score his own targets. For instance, as a match director, I hope you take the opportunity to shoot at your own matches. What would be a problem is if you also scored your own targets.
It is not specifically spelled out in the rules since the WRABF expects match directors to use good judgement and good old common sense.
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Wilbur,
The rules on our website are more of a synopsis of the full set of rules on the WRABF website. We are an affiliate country of that international organization. We do have some competitions and rifle classes that are our own.
You have categorized this situation as Larry attempting to right a wrong. Please be aware that this is only by his account of the events. He has been known to spin the "facts". I am not implying this is intentional, it could be age related. Those that would speak out against him would never be welcome again at his range, therefore, it never happens. These shooters simply overlook his little shortcomings and continue to shoot at, by all accounts, a very nice place. As was noted, he does shoot in his backyard and nobody really cares.
I guess I didn't read far enough (or incapable altogether) to figure out that USA Air is a subset of the World Org.
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Mike,
Yes, you are correct. However, nothing specifically spells out that a shooter should not score his own targets. For instance, as a match director, I hope you take the opportunity to shoot at your own matches. What would be a problem is if you also scored your own targets.
It is not specifically spelled out in the rules since the WRABF expects match directors to use good judgement and good old common sense.
Actually, it's the good judgement and good old common sense that should scare you the most.
Back up and ask yourself why ol' Wilbur would be concerned with air rifle rules. I'm not concerned, but rather offering substantial experience - resume available on request. Once I think you've even remotely grasped the gravity of how rules, the lack of rules and the continuous change of rules can affect the growth of any related competition - I'll go stick my nose in somebody else's business.
Alternatively, you can just say "Go 'way Wilbur!".....which I could say to myself but it's hard to sit on my hands and let this bit of history repeat.
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sgeorge
Guest
Wilbur,
I hope that cleans things up.
I hope that cleans things up.
Wilbur,
I hope that cleans things up.
Thanks Steve