So...let's get back to that scoring thing...

W

Wilbur

cook and bottle washer
I'm thinking that whatever happened with the "after the fact" changing of scores needs to be discussed a bit more - and without the name calling.

If the rules don't cover this they should be fixed before another pellet is fired. There's no easy way out. Sure, some things can remain informal (not many) but not scoring. It's hard enough to get folks to a match much less having them go home feeling cheated. The slightest perception of impropriety will kill attendance quicker than anything short of mass murder.
 
Here's what I think. The issue came up at our private club with its own rules, and occurred as a result of unusual circumstances. The situation has been discussed among those actually involved that can effect change (our club members). We club members are taking some steps to improve our scorekeeping routine, but feel only a minor change is needed.

We are a small club, but have been shooting airguns off the bench as a club for over four years and we derive great satisfaction from it. Some of us have shot BR on and off for decades. Though attendance varies from month to month, its always due to either other shooting events in the area, or the schedules of individual members that month.

We shoot more than one kind of airgun game, and though our targets, equipment, and procedures often vary from the "accepted norms" of the officials of some other clubs, and WE are ok with that, despite concerns of others. In ALL cases where our regular procedures vary from norm, it is by choice, not happenstance, so the act of pointing it out by others isn't likely to affect any changes for us. We have been instrumental in growing the sport, introducing or popularizing fifty airgun yard BR, true Sporter classes, truly portable bench (fit in trunk) use in matches, and others.

WE have a handful of regular club members that attend when they can. We have had many visitors attend as well. All seemed to have a good time, which is the very purpose for us to be shooting. I have yet to see any club member stay away as a result of our regular procedures seeming to be unfair. We have introduced a LOT of airgunners to bench shooting, and though most younger one's are really more interested in some of the other kinds of shooting we do here (esp the younger shooters), other continue to do it when they can. The size of our range and number of benches limits the practical size of our attendance, not how we score.

There seems to be a pervasive and obvious "pile on" attitude on these pages against our club, mostly from those that have very little actual airgun (AIRGUNshooting) experience, which seems to me, likely to discourage some members of OTHER small clubs from frequenting. I can only assume re-opening of the thread is a furtherance of the practice, since there are no other "facts" relating to the initiating event that non-attendees would be able to add.

Sadly, what I see seems to be folks who may be trying to bedazzle or kowtow us with what they feel may be important and impressive rimfire lore, without considering the fact that there is ALREADY A BULLY PULPIT for that sort of talk just next door. While there IS potential for growth in airgun Benchrest shooting from those "stepping down" from rimfire, there should ALSO be room for us "jes-plain-airgunners" to exist without being harassed.

Wilbur, since you are apparently running things here ... let me know one way or another .... if this is a more exclusive place than our little club thought, and only one way of shooting is acceptable, well then spit it out.
 
therealld said:
Here's what I think. The issue came up at our private club with its own rules, and occurred as a result of unusual circumstances. The situation has been discussed among those actually involved that can effect change (our club members). We club members are taking some steps to improve our scorekeeping routine, but feel only a minor change is needed.

We are a small club, but have been shooting airguns off the bench as a club for over four years and we derive great satisfaction from it. Some of us have shot BR on and off for decades. Though attendance varies from month to month, its always due to either other shooting events in the area, or the schedules of individual members that month.

We shoot more than one kind of airgun game, and though our targets, equipment, and procedures often vary from the "accepted norms" of the officials of some other clubs, and WE are ok with that, despite concerns of others. In ALL cases where our regular procedures vary from norm, it is by choice, not happenstance, so the act of pointing it out by others isn't likely to affect any changes for us. We have been instrumental in growing the sport, introducing or popularizing fifty airgun yard BR, true Sporter classes, truly portable bench (fit in trunk) use in matches, and others.

WE have a handful of regular club members that attend when they can. We have had many visitors attend as well. All seemed to have a good time, which is the very purpose for us to be shooting. I have yet to see any club member stay away as a result of our regular procedures seeming to be unfair. We have introduced a LOT of airgunners to bench shooting, and though most younger one's are really more interested in some of the other kinds of shooting we do here (esp the younger shooters), other continue to do it when they can. The size of our range and number of benches limits the practical size of our attendance, not how we score.

There seems to be a pervasive and obvious "pile on" attitude on these pages against our club, mostly from those that have very little actual airgun (AIRGUNshooting) experience, which seems to me, likely to discourage some members of OTHER small clubs from frequenting. I can only assume re-opening of the thread is a furtherance of the practice, since there are no other "facts" relating to the initiating event that non-attendees would be able to add.

Sadly, what I see seems to be folks who may be trying to bedazzle or kowtow us with what they feel may be important and impressive rimfire lore, without considering the fact that there is ALREADY A BULLY PULPIT for that sort of talk just next door. While there IS potential for growth in airgun Benchrest shooting from those "stepping down" from rimfire, there should ALSO be room for us "jes-plain-airgunners" to exist without being harassed.

Wilbur, since you are apparently running things here ... let me know one way or another .... if this is a more exclusive place than our little club thought, and only one way of shooting is acceptable, well then spit it out.
Click to expand...

Sir,
What makes everything you've said here make it allright to score everyone else's target but the winner until you become the winner and not a WOMAN?
As I said before if you keep inserting the plug sooner or later it will read the way you want!
Pete
 
As the party of the first part in this issue I have decided my new moto is shut up and shoot . ;)
 
I looked at a set of airgun rules and ther was no rule to prevent a similar occurrence at a match sanctioned under those rules. I know from experience that it most likely will happen and fur will fly. That's the purpose of this forum...to save a bit of grief here and there by combining our experience.

No, I could care less what your club does nor any club for that matter - sanctioned or not. That you assumed my post concerned you and your club is coincidental. I apologize for leaving out the time consuming disclaimers.
 
Every sport will have someone, in our case, Larry, who relishes doing things his own way, he takes pride in his unconventional methods and wears them as a badge of honor.

Larry operates a range on his own property and is not sanctioned and that's the way he likes it. He promotes different targets, distances and scoring methods. There is nothing wrong with any of these things. However, when criticized, as in this case, he is the first to call names and provoke a fight. When he meets with resistance, he runs to the forum owners, claims harassment and begs for protection.

Fortunately, we have experienced shooters and match directors that understand and follow benchrest scoring protocols. We also have sanctioned clubs and shooters that care.

If the shooters really care, including all the lurkers out there, we need to decide what direction air rifle benchrest is going to take. We either move forward or we go back to the way things were before. Now is the time to voice your feelings.
 
It seems you guys are talking about different animals altogether. Larry is on the unsanctioned side of the fence and Steve is on the sanctioned side. Why is there a problem?
 
Pete,

The bulls in question were only plugged once ... this lead to much of the problem. Why would you think gender has anything to do with this? Apparently you were following along, but not very well ... I didn't WIN I ended up in the same place after re-scoring (but this isn't convenient for your attack response, so you change the story), the guy that made the original scoring errors ended up being the winner, as he had miss-scored some of his own HIS own. Had we all been given opportunity to review the cards once scored, this issue wouldn't have come up .... but then you wouldn't have chance to spew such a sexist comment.

You folks have shown a lack of objectivity that is hard to understand, and that is probably pretty unsettling to most new benchrest airgunners-shooter/readers.

I stand by my previous comments ... its clear you guys would sooner dissuade other shooters by attacking anyone that does anything you perceive as a threat, or even different. As this thread continues, I see more and more hate pouring in.

I guess its a positive that we understand the mentalities we are dealing with (here).
 
Larry - regardless of any other factors, you admittedly dug targets up after the match was over and re-scored them. Like you infer - it ain't none of our business since you're running a non-sanctioned match. I agree wholeheartedly on so many levels!

Also, regardless of how folks word their posts, their intent is to try and get you to take a look at what happened and realize the possible ramifications. If anybody in this thread is thinking differently than that I suppose they will correct my assumption.

On the third hand, if you are certain there's nothing wrong with changing scores after a match is over (any match) we're wasting electrons and should stop. Just say so.....
 
Steve,
There will always be people that will shoot air rifle benchrest in some form. Whether they shoot sanctioned matches following the rules of a national or international organization is completely up to them. Some of us prefer to have a solid set of rules to abide by, and I am one of those people. Because I shot rimfire benchrest and have been an ARA, IR50/50 and RBA Match Director before switching to air rifles I have a pretty good idea of what I would like to see in the future and it closely follows what I am familiar with. The safety, scoring and match procedure protocols of those organizations are tested and for the most part work very well. The World and European rimfire and air rifle rules are also very similar to IR50/50 and RBA and I would like to see USARB continue its affiliation with the International community.

Wilbur,
I hope you are getting a pretty good idea of who the problem is at this point. One of the parties is trying to promote and grow a new organization...I don't have a clue why the other won't just go away and leave those of us who love sanctioned competition alone.
Todd
 
I would like to make a more general observation. I think that these sorts of things are best handled away from the eyes of the world. If it is a matter of a problem with a sanctioned activity, I think that it would be better for all concerned if any discussion took place within the confines of email or private messages. If there is a problem with an unsanctioned match, I think that the discussion should still be done away from the eyes of the world. This sort of public airing does nothing for the shooting sports except create a negative impression. As I said earlier, this is a general comment, and not specific to this thread, or others about the same situation. I hope that this suggestion has not upset anyone too much.

Boyd Allen
 
There it is again! "If you don't do as I like, go away!"

But just remember, it was one of your "good guys" that STARTED throwin eggs here.
 
Wilbur,

Even without you repeating it, I recall what I admitted to. Though if you claim its not your biz, I don't know WHY you repeat it.

Yes, again, the usual practice is everyone competing is able to see and comment on the targets after scoring, but in this instance they were not available for ANYONE's review because no one brought them up. I couldnt find them til the next day.

I felt it was important that the targets be seen by more than one person, so when I did find them, I looked at them all.

In my opinion, if there are errors, correcting them is more important than not doing so, since shooters should receive the scores they EARNED. It is here most who have opined against my actions differ with me ... as they are apparently more concerned with the feelings of someone that moves downward as a result of the second look, and are unwilling to take the occurrence in context of it being a fluke.

Now granted, in the usual (and correct for us) situation, the errors would have been discovered and changes made while all the shooters were present ... BEFORE the results were so quickly posted, BUT!!! fact remains, they would still be the subject of rescore, right?

No, I think this hoopla wouldnt have happened had the targets not been misplaced, and it STILL wouldnt have happened were the match results to have been posted as normal, a day or two after the match.

So, I've now been called a liar, cheat, coward, chauvinist, and I fergit what else. I've been told to leave too.

So sad. Its a small, but vocal crew, and their strident tone dominates the very personality of this place it seems.
 
As I understand the rules in most bench competition. A plug is never inserted a second time, period. The only possible protest from a shooter is to require a plug be inserted if one was not. This being indicated by a p marking all holes that were plugged.

Often in haste a scorer will call a lower score that with an eyeball looks to be the lower score. The shooter has every right to require that the shot be plugged. In BR-50 if a scorer had a plug inserted that was too close to call, another was asked to take a look and if both did not agree then a third person takes a look and two out of three call the shot. Any shot so close at our range a second person agrees on the call and if not we try and find a third to have another look before the plug is removed.

As far as unsanctioned is concerned ( we call em plinking matches ). We shoot several, on many week ends. The scorer and the shooter get to look before the plug is removed and most times the shooter says I see white and its over. We have never had a dispute yet. I am having a hard time understanding how anyone could get very upset about a plinking match. In most all of the competitions the decision of the match director is final.

All of this gets even more complicated when we have 4 possible size holes to try and judge without a plug. I am trying to locate a 25 cal. one. If all shots are not plugged with the largest cal. There will never be piece in the valley. If .25 cal plugs are not manufactured we need to have some machined for use at our matches. I think with the scoring problems the 25s will bring, that they should be in a separate class and scored separately Even though a .25 cal rifle may not be in your club match unless all holes are plugged at every club we will loose the postal element. Scores will be much higher across the board in the proposed sporter class.

Goofy old man in Texas
Bob
 
We don't call our club matches plinking, because plinking already HAS a meaning, and its not used for scored competition. We ARE competing, but only against the others there that day, as well as against our perceptions of how we did last time. but I get what you mean, because most of our club members have shot in sanctioned matches of one kind or another, though there haven't been very many out here.

A formal match doesn't HAVE to be sanctioned.

As you said, it not good practice to REPLUG bulls, and in this case, so far as could be seen, these ones had not been plugged prior to my rechecking them. If they had been, they would have received the higher scores in the first place.

But, as to your wonderment about all this fuss over an unsanctioned match ... it appears to be BECAUSE the match wasn't sanctioned.


These guys hadda go to another Forum just to find something to harangue me over. But in a way, its good, because it brings out their true nature. Sure, I talk back, but in defense, not offense.

BTW,

We won't use .25 on the international target for score, since its obvious it wasn't designed for it. As you know, there are, and have been for decades, .25 pellets in wadcutter design. I recently tested some on our targets, and saw oversized holes in comparison to .22 holes. No way it could be fair to use them in the same match with .177 and .22, even with special .25 plugs, without ending up with higher scores whenever this is done, in comparison to previous matches.

WE do often shoot for groups at 50yds, and in this case, .25 would be ok, since we measure ctc. BUt first I need to determine the safe RANGE distance required for ricochet, as its clear they will possibly go much further than .22's.
 
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Larry,

The one that started throwing the "eggs" was you. Now, what I threw back was a lot worse.

Someone on one of the centerfire forums in talking about growing their sport said, are we trying to promote with this idea, improvements in firearm accuracy as was benchrest's original goal, or are we just trying to get more guns at the bench shooting?

Now for the rimfire and centerfire games, that becomes a difficult question to answer. Both are relatively mature in their development. If you want to play those games and be competitive, it is clear what equipment is required and you must have a strong interest and competitive drive.

Air rifle benchrest is just beginning to get on it's feet after a couple of stumbles. We are learning. We need to recruit new shooters.

There is more than one direction now. There should be. One of those directions is to pursue improvements in our equipment that leads to the ultimate in accuracy. Now, a young man just shot a new world record without some of the high tech equipment but this is how we learn. The same way rimfire and centerfire learned before us.

This is not about sanctioned or not sanctioned, once again, we do not care as long as shooters are shooting benchrest and enjoying themselves. For me, it was about a shooter scoring, or re-scoring, his own targets and the perception that creates with others. No, it is not our business how you do things, appearances mean little to you but everyone else must know this is not our way.

You say we are "exclusive", we "pile on". You call us "experts". We don't mean to be but we have seen real progress in the past 2 years and some of us like it. None of this came about from that other forum. They are the other direction. We would like you here, this has been said before but given your preferences, maybe you should stick with your direction.
 
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OK, I get it now. Larry realized that folks were not getting a fair shake and tried to fix it. Otherwise we might be discussing what happened to the targets and why. That's what happens when folks don't have or don't follow a specific set of rules.
 
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