R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Thank you for this summary. How did/do you establish IQ - subjective, or quantitative? RG
Sightron 10-50 vs Nightforce 12-42
- Thread starter Rimfireshooter
- Start date
Thank you for this summary. How did/do you establish IQ - subjective, or quantitative? RG
Being for many years a bird in nature photographer, I'm used to big tele lenses, like the Nikkors 600mm f4, and the likes including Leica field scopes, so I know quite well what to look for.
Scopes are a bit different of course, but IQ should be there...
The key points I seek are:
1. Clarity (ability to see clearly my target (50m) at down and dusk. That's why I tend to prefer big objectives)
2. Image definition (ability to perfectly identify the numbers/letters/dots on targets, not to be confounded with big power. Of course with 60x seing them will be easier than with 6.5x, but, and that's a big but, definition has nothing to do with power. On zoom lenses, we have to accept that increasing magnification will degrade the definition. I only accept that to a certain level... reason that some scopes have been sold)
3. Distortion/aberrations on image, particularly at periphery. For me that's too annoying.
4. Eye tiredness after training/competing (I tend to train for hours and can easily tell which scope is better or worse in this respect)
So, as you see, very personal/subjective, but essential for my right attitude and performance.
Just an end note:
Points 2 and 3 are the culprits cost wise...
Point 1 is the leader to size and weight...
Point 4 is the one you should look after...
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Again, Thank You, PedroS!
Excellent points, which few know, and many refuse to believe!I prefer "image definition" (RESOLUTION) to be determined via some form of resolution chart, which supplies quantifiable differences.
Resolution is HIGH on my list of necessary attributes - second only to maintaining ZERO. RGAgain, Thank You, PedroS!
I prefer "image definition" (RESOLUTION) to be determined via some form of resolution chart, which supplies quantifiable differences.
I think you touched too, as I did with POI, a much underrated point...
Ability to maintain zero.
Of course, anything matters if the scope can't do it!
Regarding definition/resolution, as you know, these words don't mean the same thing, even if at the end of the day we use them for the same approach.
I prefer definition, as I'm not able to measure it, because image definition refers to how sharp and distinct the edges of fine detail are.
Resolution is, in film photography, measured in line pairs per millimetre (LP/mm). So, as you said, with charts and optical measuring devices.
Very nice to be able to discuss these points.
Other thing to be taken in account is the scope ability to maintain POI adjustments after a long period of rest. I'll explain. In benchrest, in particular, as we shoot as the same distance, we tend to let the scope knobs long period of times without moving them. This is a stress for the spring mechanism, that could gain a "softness" zone. What's the issue? When you'll need one or two clicks, it won't respond... only after a couple of shots, as the recoil will "awake" the spring mechanism. That's why, every time I pick a rifle, I click the knobs (easier when they can be zeroed).
On my experience Nightforce, March and some Leupold are safe... but, moving the knobs doesn't hurt.
The only Leupold
I have had luck with from the point of maintaining POI and moving the impact point honestly is the VXIII-and the VXIIIi. The competition scopes I have had have all gone bad, most sooner than later. My experience with March, so far, has been great.
A fellow I know said he had 3 Leup competitons....on on his rifle, one at Leupold and one in the mail.
I still have 2 Leup competiton scopes, but both are in Brackney external adjustable rings. They work fine if you can adapt to the micrometer adjustment feel. all have been on CF rifles though.
I have had luck with from the point of maintaining POI and moving the impact point honestly is the VXIII-and the VXIIIi. The competition scopes I have had have all gone bad, most sooner than later. My experience with March, so far, has been great.
A fellow I know said he had 3 Leup competitons....on on his rifle, one at Leupold and one in the mail.
I still have 2 Leup competiton scopes, but both are in Brackney external adjustable rings. They work fine if you can adapt to the micrometer adjustment feel. all have been on CF rifles though.
So....I’m guessing this was some time ago?
You’ve told this before but the LCS optics for some time have been pretty solid.
Check equipment lists on most group CF group shoots including the last couple super shoots top 20......about 50% LCS. After the 2nd generation POI issues got resolved it would seem.
Yes
10 yrs ago or so. Nice to hear they have solved their problem.
At the recent IBS 200/300 championship in Orangeburg, SC there was two 40X Leups in the VFS class and one Sightron. Nightforce was the predominant scope with a sprinkling of Marchs. Perhaps we are overlooking a diamond in the ruff?
10 yrs ago or so. Nice to hear they have solved their problem.
At the recent IBS 200/300 championship in Orangeburg, SC there was two 40X Leups in the VFS class and one Sightron. Nightforce was the predominant scope with a sprinkling of Marchs. Perhaps we are overlooking a diamond in the ruff?
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JG26_Irish
New member
BR Optics
I would like to offer a bit of a contrarian point of view. The rifle has no idea what type of sighting equipment is mounted on top of it and will shoot the same regardless. As long as your scope is clear enough and has a fine recticle and you can see to reliably, and consistently aim the rifle the rest will take care of itself. For BR I prefer a fixed power optic because they contain fewer lenses and that usually results in a more clear, more bright image. 36x is enough. More is not necessarily better. Very powerful optics make tgt acquisition harder and can lead to dumb mistakes like shooting your neighbor's card or failing to shoot all of the bulls because your field of view was too restricted.
I am currently using a 36x Sightron and the recticle is perfect, The 1/8 MOA turrects allow finer POI adjustments and mine has remained repeatable thru many years of use. Weaver, Leupold and others make similar optics which will work just as well. I would offer that for fun shoots I have a few old vintage Unertl and Fecker scopes in 20x - 10x and they are of such great image clarity that I rarely feel handicapped using them in matches. The important variables in scope selection are:
1. Image clarity
2. Fine adjustment of the turrets prefer 1/8" over 1/4" for this
3. Good, simple tgt dot recticle with a very fine dot. or a simple fine cross hair.
4. Price - I don't go cheap but have never felt the need to spend buckets of money for the biggest, baddest scope on the market.
5. Simple parallax adjustment is also important but keep in mind that once it is adjusted you should not have to fuss with it again.
BR scopes for rimfire are mostly going to be shot at 50y and 50 meters. They will not require lots of adjustment from match to match. It is not like PRS or NRL22 where a fancy FFP optic capable of rapid adjustment is a requirement. Also some of the tactical recticles are so busy that they can get distracting and some like the Athlon have a FFP recticle in their 2FP scopes and the center dot is so tiny that it is almost impossible for some shooters to see it. If I am having to hold off more than 1/2 moa then I have much more to worry about so the christmas tree recticles are not necessary for BR. Lastly, the BR game has a high concentration of older shooters. Our eyes may not be what they used to be. Before you spend $2500 on a super high end HD scope, go see the eye Doc and make sure your vision is 20:20. A dietary supplement called Lutein will sharpen and brighten your vision if you are like me and getting older. If you have good vision then any clear scope at 20x or higher is enough to shoot BR quite well. If you doubt me, try a simple test. Shoot a card with your variable scope at max power. Then with the same ammo and on same day shoot another card with the optic dialed down to the minimum magnification. I think you will be surprised how well you do at 6x or 8x. I shot a fun shoot the other day that used the ARA Factory tgt at 50y but we were limited to 6x scopes or less. I was using an old vintage 6-24x optic and dialed it down to 6x for that event and was pleased to be able to not only see the bullet holes but to also see the center dot. I shot a perfect score on that card for 1st place.
Let's face it, the wind and the ammo variance are two big variables that we have only some control over. Both will cause more variance in your POI than the optic will as long as your scope is at least a good one and you can see the center dot on the tgt.
Irish
I would like to offer a bit of a contrarian point of view. The rifle has no idea what type of sighting equipment is mounted on top of it and will shoot the same regardless. As long as your scope is clear enough and has a fine recticle and you can see to reliably, and consistently aim the rifle the rest will take care of itself. For BR I prefer a fixed power optic because they contain fewer lenses and that usually results in a more clear, more bright image. 36x is enough. More is not necessarily better. Very powerful optics make tgt acquisition harder and can lead to dumb mistakes like shooting your neighbor's card or failing to shoot all of the bulls because your field of view was too restricted.
I am currently using a 36x Sightron and the recticle is perfect, The 1/8 MOA turrects allow finer POI adjustments and mine has remained repeatable thru many years of use. Weaver, Leupold and others make similar optics which will work just as well. I would offer that for fun shoots I have a few old vintage Unertl and Fecker scopes in 20x - 10x and they are of such great image clarity that I rarely feel handicapped using them in matches. The important variables in scope selection are:
1. Image clarity
2. Fine adjustment of the turrets prefer 1/8" over 1/4" for this
3. Good, simple tgt dot recticle with a very fine dot. or a simple fine cross hair.
4. Price - I don't go cheap but have never felt the need to spend buckets of money for the biggest, baddest scope on the market.
5. Simple parallax adjustment is also important but keep in mind that once it is adjusted you should not have to fuss with it again.
BR scopes for rimfire are mostly going to be shot at 50y and 50 meters. They will not require lots of adjustment from match to match. It is not like PRS or NRL22 where a fancy FFP optic capable of rapid adjustment is a requirement. Also some of the tactical recticles are so busy that they can get distracting and some like the Athlon have a FFP recticle in their 2FP scopes and the center dot is so tiny that it is almost impossible for some shooters to see it. If I am having to hold off more than 1/2 moa then I have much more to worry about so the christmas tree recticles are not necessary for BR. Lastly, the BR game has a high concentration of older shooters. Our eyes may not be what they used to be. Before you spend $2500 on a super high end HD scope, go see the eye Doc and make sure your vision is 20:20. A dietary supplement called Lutein will sharpen and brighten your vision if you are like me and getting older. If you have good vision then any clear scope at 20x or higher is enough to shoot BR quite well. If you doubt me, try a simple test. Shoot a card with your variable scope at max power. Then with the same ammo and on same day shoot another card with the optic dialed down to the minimum magnification. I think you will be surprised how well you do at 6x or 8x. I shot a fun shoot the other day that used the ARA Factory tgt at 50y but we were limited to 6x scopes or less. I was using an old vintage 6-24x optic and dialed it down to 6x for that event and was pleased to be able to not only see the bullet holes but to also see the center dot. I shot a perfect score on that card for 1st place.
Let's face it, the wind and the ammo variance are two big variables that we have only some control over. Both will cause more variance in your POI than the optic will as long as your scope is at least a good one and you can see the center dot on the tgt.
Irish
Overall, pretty good except you need to shoot more RF at more locations because at virtually every match we shoot you need a scope adjustment and with regularity you need to adjust in the middle of a card.
Long and short of it is that all roads lead right back to the mandate of absolute reliability of POI.
Many of us shoot a variable on sporters as well although the ARA factory target pales in comparison to the IR50/50 target through a 6X scope.....try a few of those.
Long and short of it is that all roads lead right back to the mandate of absolute reliability of POI.
Many of us shoot a variable on sporters as well although the ARA factory target pales in comparison to the IR50/50 target through a 6X scope.....try a few of those.
Disregard. It was a Factory target I see. Still good shooting, but I was thinking an Unlimited target. That would have been a record for sure.
JG26_Irish
New member
Scope for BR
Please don't get too hung up on the tgt used for that example. It was not my point. My point was that for BR shooting of rimfire rifles, you do not need a variable optic. A single power scope of at least 36x or more is all you need (you can get by with less). It will be simpler, lighter, and compared to a variable of the same quality will often be clearer for the simple reason that a fixed power scope has fewer internal lenses. Each lens that the light must pass thru has a certain amount of light loss due to reflection and refraction, etc. Fewer lenses results in less light lost and a brighter image. Clarity is a function of the lense quality. Again for the same quality scope, the single power design will be clearer. I am not saying you cannot get clear variables. You can and the two that Larry asked about (Sightron & Nightforce) are two of the best. But unless you plan to use the same scope for other duties like NRL22 or PRS matches, etc, it is not a necessity for success in BR. Either will get the job done.
Last night at our local BR fun shoot, I shot the ARA unlimited card using an old Win52B wearing a 20x Unertl. It was dark and the lighting on the tgts was barely enough to be adequate. I was mostly shooting against other high end factory sporters but also one full unlimited custom rifle and a couple of factory actions with custom bbls, etc. None of us shot any record scores due to the conditions and the limitations of our our equipment but I did shoot the high card in the first match using the old girl with her 20x optic. Never once felt like the scope was my biggest handicap. Ammo, sandbags, wind and a stiff original factory trigger all had more impact on the results. Sometimes more is better and sometimes it is just more. We each have to be the judge of that. There is a lot of grey hair in BR, mine included. I just think that some shooters may be going for bigger magnification to compensate. No, not that... , I was thinking of them compensating for eyesight that has slowly faded over time so gradually that many of us do not even realize that it has happened. This may not always be the case but I see guys all the time using 45x, 50x and bigger optics and still complaining that they are having trouble seeing the tgt or shooting as well as they want. Just sayin...
Recently at a local match one of my fellow shooters was complaining about the image quality of his scope. I think it was a fixed 45x very nice looking modern scope but I really did not look close enough to verify the brand. But, nonetheless, he asked me to look thru it and see what I thought. I did and what I saw was a clear but very dark image. I dialed the side focus back and forth a little and it might have improved slightly but that could just be the difference in our eyes. It had more power at 45x but was not delivering a better target image than my old antique 20x Unertl. The old Unertl has other issues and is far from being the best BR scope. It is big, heavy, clunky to adjust and the windage and elevation adjustments are very course. But it does have good glass.
Please don't get too hung up on the tgt used for that example. It was not my point. My point was that for BR shooting of rimfire rifles, you do not need a variable optic. A single power scope of at least 36x or more is all you need (you can get by with less). It will be simpler, lighter, and compared to a variable of the same quality will often be clearer for the simple reason that a fixed power scope has fewer internal lenses. Each lens that the light must pass thru has a certain amount of light loss due to reflection and refraction, etc. Fewer lenses results in less light lost and a brighter image. Clarity is a function of the lense quality. Again for the same quality scope, the single power design will be clearer. I am not saying you cannot get clear variables. You can and the two that Larry asked about (Sightron & Nightforce) are two of the best. But unless you plan to use the same scope for other duties like NRL22 or PRS matches, etc, it is not a necessity for success in BR. Either will get the job done.
Last night at our local BR fun shoot, I shot the ARA unlimited card using an old Win52B wearing a 20x Unertl. It was dark and the lighting on the tgts was barely enough to be adequate. I was mostly shooting against other high end factory sporters but also one full unlimited custom rifle and a couple of factory actions with custom bbls, etc. None of us shot any record scores due to the conditions and the limitations of our our equipment but I did shoot the high card in the first match using the old girl with her 20x optic. Never once felt like the scope was my biggest handicap. Ammo, sandbags, wind and a stiff original factory trigger all had more impact on the results. Sometimes more is better and sometimes it is just more. We each have to be the judge of that. There is a lot of grey hair in BR, mine included. I just think that some shooters may be going for bigger magnification to compensate. No, not that... , I was thinking of them compensating for eyesight that has slowly faded over time so gradually that many of us do not even realize that it has happened. This may not always be the case but I see guys all the time using 45x, 50x and bigger optics and still complaining that they are having trouble seeing the tgt or shooting as well as they want. Just sayin...
Recently at a local match one of my fellow shooters was complaining about the image quality of his scope. I think it was a fixed 45x very nice looking modern scope but I really did not look close enough to verify the brand. But, nonetheless, he asked me to look thru it and see what I thought. I did and what I saw was a clear but very dark image. I dialed the side focus back and forth a little and it might have improved slightly but that could just be the difference in our eyes. It had more power at 45x but was not delivering a better target image than my old antique 20x Unertl. The old Unertl has other issues and is far from being the best BR scope. It is big, heavy, clunky to adjust and the windage and elevation adjustments are very course. But it does have good glass.