Shooting without flags.....

MColeman

MColeman

Club Coordinator
Many's the time I've had a customer call and ask about his rifle's accuracy. I always ask them if they're shooting over wind flags. Almost never are they doing so but they usually reply that they're shooting early/late when there's no wind. I just can't convince them that they're wasting time and money.

This afternoon I was working on tuning my rifle after a 2 year hiatus from shooting. There was no breeze to be felt but I had five flags out. I had four shots into a mid 3 at 200 yards and was about to touch the fifth shot off. Just as I fired I saw the front flag slowly rotate about 45 degrees and, sure enough, the shot turned the group into a five. The tail didn't even flutter but Rick Graham's flag moved slowly and, as usual, the shot didn't beat the condition. I wish I could have a video of it to show the non-believers when it comes to using wind flags.

I've always been a slow learner at cause and effect. In fact, sometimes I make Jethro Bodine look like a real brain surgeon but I think I've learned more in the past week than I did in the last 5 years of my shooting stint.

Question on tuning for Jackie or anybody else who might know the answer.
Once the optimum seating depth is found all you need to stay on top of is the powder charge.......right? Please tell me I'm right.
 
sometimes I make Jethro Bodine look like a real brain surgeon but I think I've learned more in the past week than I did in the last 5 years of my shooting stint.
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I don't think so, but nice try Mickey. It's good to hear your going to shoot some more BR again. As far as your question goes, I would say yes to leaving a seating depth alone and ajusting the powder once you have established it.

JMO,
-Mike
 
Mike Paul said:
I don't think so, but nice try Mickey. It's good to hear your going to shoot some more BR again. As far as your question goes, I would say yes to leaving a seating depth alone and ajusting the powder once you have established it.

JMO,
-Mike
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You sweet talker, you. :)
 
Mickey

I have been getting away with that for quite a while.
But, do keep in mind, I set my barrels back on a regular basis, never allowing the throat to get too bad. You certainl have the ability, and the facility, to do the same thing.
I agree with your statement about flags. Shooters have no idea, especially at 200 yards, how much just a little bit of push can move a bullet.
I did an experiment with my Rail Gun a few years back. We were at the range, (the old Lake Houston Gun Club), on one of those mornings when the wind was doing nothing. My Rail had a good tune on it.
You could sit and stair at the flags, and they would all turn, very slowly, to the green., and just stay there, with no tail or daisy movement at all.
Then, after a while, they would all very slowly turn back to the orange, stay for a while, with no indication of anything.
I put a round on the target with the flags all turned green, but just sitting there. I then waited, for what seemed to be an etenity, untill the flags all turned the other way, settled in like before, with no indication on tails or daisy's. I then put another round on the target.
Guess what. Those two bullet holes were exactly side by side, interlocking, but at least .180 center to center. I would have swore the hole would not have gotten any bigger.
It seems the entire atmosphere would be moving ever so slightly one way, and then the other, and the bullet was "riding that atmosphere"........jackie
 
I've walked the flag line when its dead, i.e., when the tails are just hanging,, or perhaps slightly wagging. Even then, you can feel the air movement against your body. That's the worse condition I can imagine. Similar conditions cost me a win at the Nationals. In my experience, the only time there are no wind currents is when you shoot indoors, fans off and wait extraordinary lengths of time between shots.
 
Except for throat erosion of course. Last year I came in 22nd place in the light varmint at the Buffalo shoot in Midland. I shot the same rifle in the heavy varmint but moved the bullet out .010 to account for the erosion from 300+ rounds since the last time I checked the seating depth. The vertical I had been fighting went away and I finished 3rd in the heavy.
 
A couple of times, when friends were frustrated with how their rifles were performing at a match, when they had seemed to be ok at practice, I suggested that they move a bullet out .003 and it solved their problem. It seems that wear can sneak up on a feller. If it has been a while since I made a seating depth change, and my powder charge looks ok for the barrel, bullet, temp. and humidity, the first thing that I try is seating a little longer. Most of the time, it works. I really should keep better records of rounds shot at a particular OAL. Has anyone else noticed that certain bullet shapes are less sensitive to seating depth?
 
Boyd I'd hate to think that I could speak for the late Frank Murphy rest his helpful soul but he spent a lot of time on this subject. It started with "how far in can you seat a bullet before it gets pushed back" and ended up being an exploration of the matching of ogive to leade. I still think that those old discussions were the germ that started ll of the "ball-seat" type experimentation..........


ANYway, short answer yes. And I believe that it has to do with HOW the bullet enters the lands which affects the initial burn curve.


My opinion, stolen from FLM :)

Ol' Frank was a real thinker and I'll always be holden to him for giving me omphaloskepsis to use as I will :D A right handy word to have at one's disposal (NO connection implied to the current discussion!)


al
 
Regarding Mickey's OP.


I'm the least qualified person you could find to enter this discussion BUT I did once get a great lesson on this subject, learned at the feet of a master, I ALMOST got me' behind booted by the feet of the master!!!


I'd owned several good rifles and my own range for 6yrs or so when I attended the IBS BR school in '99 or 2000. I picked up a brand new special order Borden rifle at the school and used it. It wanted to shoot. Jim Borden was a couple benches away watching it and nodding......the gun was doing its job.


My instructor was Lee Euber, wow. I was in heaven..... Anyway, about aggregate #3 Mr Euber called us all into a huddle, it seems that the word was out that we were in contention for all the berries!! All's we had to do was avoid train wreck and we would win the "match".


Lee takes winning the match very seriously :D


Now here I must digress.........I was the only guy in our group of students with my own range and my own rifle. A PURDY rifle at that, green ;) looked real perfessional. I say this only to let y'all realize that because of this, Lee figured (wrongly) that I HAD a clue, he didn't give me too much attention, let me do my own thing kinda'. So we're workin' it......Lee's leaning in like a gentle drill sergeant reading the flags and whispering instructions and gener'ly getting all the bullets into liddle knots. So I gets up on the table, all my own gear and everything, setup is ok, gun's hammered in tight.......let's rock-N-roll eh?



There's a storm blowing in, the day's getting weird and puffy and Lee's giving a running commentary as the flags do their little dance.....we're maybe three minutes in and I've got some sighters down, Lee's explaining them and letting everybody look through the spotting scope.........and allofa'sudden I see MY CONDITION!!!! Everything goes LIMP!!! THIS is the sort of stuff I wait DAYS for on my homerange! I'M IN!!!! MY CONDITION!!!!


WHAM WHAMWHAMBADYWHAM!!!


!!



!!!!!! WHAT the!!!





??????





There's a bullet hole parked clear over by the next ring! SOMEbody musta' steenkin' CROSSFIRED on me!


I look back at Mr Lee Most-Patient-And-Kind Euber and he's looking at me like I've grown a third head!


He's flippin' SPEECHLESS!


I bowed my head and cut the paper out between the two holes and sat back defeated.



We still won the match with no help from me. I was last place in our group.



Without further explanation let me just say that I'm well and firmly in Marcelli's camp here........there AIN'T NO ZERO condition!!!


Remember the "home range?" I'd spent 6yrs wasting my time with sticks and string and surveyors tape picking and choosing conditions and waiting for those "perfect days".............and wondering about my imperfect groups. Some days they DID all go in the same hole, but WHY??? ONLY the flags tell WHY!!! I bought two sets of good flags.

I practice BETTER now.

Many days I set out the flags and only have time for a couple groups when I'd like to be SHOOTING............ but I've learned bitterly that SHOOTING ain't practicing, it's just wasting time and money. 4 good flags and a Gene Beggs Wind Probe for a clean 100yd shot across my own lawn in the comfort of my own range and some days I shoot groups that have air in them. At 100yds. With GOOD equipment.


Now for my personal thorn Mickey........how in the @#*%!!! do you read vertical conditions???


:):):):)


I just had to share..... no HELP here, I just had to vent :eek:

MAN I love this game!!

LOL


al
 
Mickey

Can I add this? You had 5 flags out @200 yards (600 feet). Each flag covers no more than 2 feet each. (10 feet). That leaves 590 feet for that little "puff" to burn you..... I know we can't put out 100 flags, but this can or does explain some of those "where did that come from" shots we ALL get.... I use 10 indicators @ 50 yards and sometimes it ain't enough..... bill
 
bill s said:
Can I add this? You had 5 flags out @200 yards (600 feet). Each flag covers no more than 2 feet each. (10 feet). That leaves 590 feet for that little "puff" to burn you..... I know we can't put out 100 flags, but this can or does explain some of those "where did that come from" shots we ALL get.... I use 10 indicators @ 50 yards and sometimes it ain't enough..... bill
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Bill, that follows an old saying that "If some is good, more is better and too much is just right." :) With my limited abilities there's no way I can watch that many flags. If a hummingbird wants to cut a fart at 110 yards I'm just at his mercy. There are a few shooters who will use 6-7 flags at 200 but I've seldom seen them at matches.
 
What?????????????????????????????

alinwa said:
Ol' Frank was a real thinker and I'll always be holden to him for giving me omphaloskepsis to use as I will :D A right handy word to have at one's disposal (NO connection implied to the current discussion!)
al
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Okay Al, I'll bite!
What does omphaloskepsis mean?
Chino69
 
Mickey

Please, I didn't mean you need to add more flags. I'm just saying we can't see all the conditions no matter how many we use....Most of the "problems" we can't see will come from between the one we have out....I can't read the 10 that I use but I see when one act different than the others. And it happens a lot..
Bill
PS: I know you can't see a hummingbird fart @ 100 yards,but can you hear it??????
 
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bill s said:
Please, I didn't mean you need to add more flags. I'm just saying we can't see all the conditions no matter how many we use....Most of the "problems" we can't see will come from between the one we have out....I can't read the 10 that I use but I see when one act different than the others. And it happens a lot..
Bill
PS: I know you can't see a hummingbird fart @ 100 yards,but can you hear it??????
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I can if it has fat cheeks. :D

I understand what you mean about the flags now. I told you that I could be 'slow' at times.
 
I know a lot of F Class shooters that test the accuracy of loads and the rifle/barrel without flags. The "group" is only measured for vertical and let the wind do what it wants. Don't be discouraged with the horizontal measurement of the group.
 
Hey, Mickey...

You've been shooting more than I have - wanna bet a dollar on the two-gun?

(leaving tonight or tomorrow morning, with a buncha banners and stuff).
 
Shiraz Balolia said:
I know a lot of F Class shooters that test the accuracy of loads and the rifle/barrel without flags. The "group" is only measured for vertical and let the wind do what it wants. Don't be discouraged with the horizontal measurement of the group.
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Shiraz, that makes sense, at least it does to me. Thanks.
 
If we are attacked by Giant Caterpillars From Neptune, I am part of the first line of defense.
 
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