Shooting groups vs 25 targets?

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dave92029

Guest
As I read various forums I see many other shooters refer to how small a group their rifle shoots. Many seem to equate this to being a "good shooter."

My personal experience is that even on a bad day, I can shoot small groups, but I may have trouble hitting the center of the 25 different bulls eye on an ARA target.

I guess the difference is shooting groups is a test of the rifle vs shooting targets is a test of the shooter's ability to aim, pull the trigger and read the wind, etc.

My question is if I can consistently shoot a 5 shot group, that are less than a half inch, doesn't that require the same skills as shooting at a target. Therefore, why is it, for me, so much more challenging to move around and shoot 25 bulls eyes on the ARA target? :D

I was asked this question at the range yesterday and I came up with a really lame answer. I want to to be ready with a better explaination next time I'm asked this question. ;) Thanks.
 
Precision versus Accuracy.

I think that this question gets to the heart of the difference between precision and accuracy. Shooting 5 shot groups with small spreads requires precision, but not necessarily accuracy. You may see people post photos of very small groups, but these groups are not necessarily (sometimes intentionally) centered on the point of aim.

Shooting 25 individual bulls on a card requires accuracy (you have to hit what you are aiming at), not just having 5 consistent shots which do not have to be located at the point of aim.

Precision versus accuracy is an important fundamental distinction in all kinds of systems requiring measurements (machining, manufacturing, shooting, etc.)

My 2 cents,

SteveM.
 
Also, moving around the target to shoot the 25 bullseyes, your position and drop angles are changing constantly.

And you have the wind to contend with. Shooting for group(s), you stay at the same spot each time. Wind would still be a factor.
 
i shoot groups testing ammo, then i will move on to hitting the x-rings. since i got my suhl this year i have had only 3 or 4 days to shoot outside when the tempature was over 60 degrees. i'm still testing test lots in the wind when the weather allows. we have a snow storm coming tonight threw saturday. outside testing will be put off again. but most groups are testing ammo, then when you figure it out you move on. and like they said moving the gun from target to target has a skill all its own. what works for one person might not work for another.
 
Even if you could move the target into 25 different positions, just to keep from having to move the rifle. You are still shooting a 25 shot agg, and not just a group.
 
The manner in which the stock tracks in the bags plays an important role. The pressures on the side of the stock can change as you move up and down as well as side to side. You need to really pay attention to make sure that the stock is tracking consistantly and be sure it is not binding up.
 
Accurate

Shooting the dots is a lot more than just having a rifle that will group. Most competent shooters can do the same thing 5 times in a row but doing it 25 times in a row while changing targets is a different matter. Of course if your rifle won't group, you won't either.
 
There is probably a mental element to it too.

I used to shoot prone smallbore on target machines that rotate the new bullseye into position. When the time came to score the cards, it was amazing how many bugeyes were shot on the second sighting target & wide shots on the first scoring one.
 
Competition group shooting requires precision and accuracy.
The biggest difference between registered group competition and shooting a good group (in the middle of a bunch of bad ones) on your home range is that registered matches shoot “aggs” not a couple of cherry-picked groups.

This is why I prefer group competition over score.
What a lot of people who shoot score only fail to realize is that depending on the conditions group shooters will frequently move from the record to one or more of the sighter targets aiming points to test changing conditions. When they come back to the record target their bullet hole is the bullseye and they have to put the next shot through the exact same hole, there isn’t any wiggle room like in score, any enlargement of the original hole is measured and counted against you…..
If you hit on one side of the X, and then the other side of the X, and the top, and the bottom, in score with a little paper in between all the shots your in great shape, doing that in group would move you to the back of the pack in a big hurry.
What’s the best you can do in score, tie someone else’s perfect target? You’ll never see that in group so any future advancements in precision and accuracy can be measured and have more meaning.
In centerfire, score advancement is focused on looking for a bigger bullet, not more accuracy or center to center precision.

I’m guessing most center fire people shoot both group and score these days so there isn’t a lot of arguing about which one is better, they’re both hard and the better shooters tend to come in first in either. I simply prefer group for the reasons above, but shoot plenty of score on my home range and at club matches, rimfire and center fire.
Most of the “score is harder” talk comes from score shooters that have never shot in a registered group match and tend to only look at their best group targets.

Here’s a challenge to everyone on this forum.
Take your rimfire out next Saturday or Sunday at 1:00 PM and shoot a 5-group agg in the teens, one attempt, one target with 5 aiming points all on the same sheet of paper. No mulligan’s, no second attempts, 5 rounds in each of the 5 groups groups and post a picture of the target.
You'll probably find that this is very "hard" to do... :D

Come on guys play along, lets see how many “aggs in the teens” we can get this weekend, in one try, at 50-yards, out of all the great shooting rimfires on this forum!
Who knows maybe the conditions will be great where you live. ;)

Jim
 
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That's a can of worms there Jim !

Assume in CF score if one was to take a typical winning 250 - high X card and place the first 5 shots on one paper (overlaying the points of impact) and then the next 5 on another so instead of 25 shots you had 5 groups of 5. How big would the groups be and what would the agg be ?
 
BJS6 said:
That's a can of worms there Jim !

Assume in CF score if one was to take a typical winning 250 - high X card and place the first 5 shots on one paper (overlaying the points of impact) and then the next 5 on another so instead of 25 shots you had 5 groups of 5. How big would the groups be and what would the agg be ?
Click to expand...

Probably not much bigger than some of the groups I shot in my last match, lol! :D
That post may get me in trouble but I hope some people take the challenge because it would be fun and quite a learning experience.

Something Bob Dodd said to me years ago really stuck in my head and I remember it as clearly today as I did 10 Years ago. “You shot a .17xx and lost?” :eek:
Speedy’s agg was less than a thousands smaller than mine and he rightfully won, but if was a score match we would have just shot another couple of 250’s in a sea of 250’s. :confused:

Jim
 
To all who are up to the challange

GET OUT THE CALIPERS OR GET OUT THE WAY

Now that was just to get yals attention
WE DO SHOOT GROUPS IN THE SOUTH LA & MS

American Rimfire group (ARG)

www.22arg.com Check us out

Our Match starts at 9 am tomarrow, not 1pm so we might have an advantage! haha
We will shoot 4 cards (5 bulls with 5 shots at each)
different weight classes,tunners,high doller rests, wind flaggs and all......
The winner WILL NOT need to AGG in the teens BUT Better be below .2500
Thats 100 shoots agg under 1/4 inch center to center.

Paul
 
Ain't the same...

Half inch groups aren't remotely good enough if you intend to use that gun to compete on ARA targets. You need a rifle that will group in the 1/10" to 2/10" range. This can be done with a really good rifle with the best ammo and the tuner properly set.

If you have a rifle that will do that, the precision/accuracy thing is not relevant. If your group isn't centered, just twiddle the knobs on top of the scope and you can zero in on the center of the target. Every time some expert patiently explains the difference between precision and accuracy to us neophytes, it gives me gas.;)

Dick Wright
 
John Kielly said:
There is probably a mental element to it too.

I used to shoot prone smallbore on target machines that rotate the new bullseye into position. When the time came to score the cards, it was amazing how many bugeyes were shot on the second sighting target & wide shots on the first scoring one.
Click to expand...

The problem is very noticable on the prone 50 yard or 100 yard target where there are 3 bulls stacked. Switching from the top sighter target to the bottom target or even the middle moves the POI. You can shoot a one hole 50-5X on the 50 yard bull but when you drop down to the next target it will be out of the X ring.

Mark
 
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