Score Shooters Showdown
- Thread starter jcline
- Start date
I must be misunderstanding this. Are you really saying there is only a "perceived" advantage to a .308 vs a .243 bullet on an IBS score target? If so, whatever you are smoking, please send me some. If I misunderstand your position, please correct me.
Rick
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Rick, at 100 Yd., presuming equal precision, there is a slight, but non readable, scoring advantage: it amounts to 0.0325", or, the radial difference - we don't get to use both edges of the bullet. At 100 yd. the wind-drift component is about 0.060, or, 1/16th of an inch . . . roughly 1/2 of the X-dot. It amounts to a savvy shooter having more hold-off hedge, but that goes back to doping and strategy.
Then, at two hundred yards, each 1MPH of perpendicular wind drags our bullets (whether 6mm, or, .30 cal) about 0.40" (80% of a scoring ring), so, who can take advantage of (DOPE) less than 1/10 that amount? I'm saying, that at Grand Aggregate events, the caliber/diameter component is, "lost in the noise", and merely perceptual. The shooter with a tuned rifle, who is doping and executing
the best wins.
At our NBRSA and IBS registered events, here in fly-over land, Grand Agg. (100/200) tournaments are usually won/lost @ 200 Yards, and at the 200 yd. stage. Over all the seasons, the 6mm toting minority have held their own, winning their fair share - shooters win, not cartridges, or, calibers. Some of our habitual win/place/show shooters a 6mm fanatics. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
While I sincerely appreciate your explanation, I will vehemently disagree with you. Also, it is clear that the overwhelming majority of score shooters do as well. I'm sure you can read equipment lists as well as anybody and doing so you will see that there are virtually no 6mm shooters in these events. Further, having scored as many targets as anybody over the past five years I can testify that the winning score is frequently in the thousands. To say that the difference of .65 gets lost in the noise, to me, is ridiculous and you should know better. I completely agree that the 30BR is equal to the 6PPC in grouping ability, but when shooters with equal equipment and ability compete together in score shooting (IBS/NBRSA target), one shooting a 6PPC and the other a 30BR the edge will go to the 30BR in nearly every case. In fact it will be over 90% of the time. It's pretty easy to look at the results and see what I'm saying. If someone wants to give me .065 on every bull I will bet $$ on every match and I won't go home a loser.
Rick
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
I have to agree with you Rick. Having experience with both targets, like you and I have, there is no doubt about it to me. IOW, you really need to shoot both to fully appreciate the value of that bigger/smaller dot. It is real and the UBR target makes a 6 or 22 very competitive in score shooting while making the needed level of precision
equal between calibers.
The difference in the view that I held is that I have a 30 that I feel like is my best gun. Everyone should be able to shoot their best stuff without being handicapped. The results show, after several years of shooting UBR, with many regulars converting from a 30 to a 6 or 22, that the majority of UBR shooters feel like a 6mm is best when the target system offers no advantage to making the bigger hole of a 30.
While I love the idea of all three major score shooting sanctioning bodies coming together for this kind of shoot, the advantage of shooting a 30 is too great to call this a level playing field for all.
I'd probably shoot it, because I am a 30 shooter, but I don't know that I would otherwise.
I do agree with Randy, that the difference is much less at 200, but it's still there.
At this level, the game must be fair for all. This is part of why UBR exists and is growing.
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
The difference between IBS/NBRSA scoring and UBR is that they are different - the intent of the OP was/is to have a sort of, "SUPER SHOOT" for score - already somewhat complicated by having two classes (Hunter/6x/10Lb., & VfS), which the way the IBS Nationals are [usually] conducted (TWO DAY event!), has lead to a major decline in Hunter/6x participation.
Faced with the choice of either shooting two guns, and TWO full rotations a day, most people opt for the easier VfS, as there is less equipment to move about, not to mention the easier aiming and handling of the 13.5 # rifles. I've experienced the two guns thing several times now, and will not do it again - I, and I believe most others, shoot for enjoyment, not a workout.
I am very opinionated, that the National Championships should be a one gun, one yardage per day affair. THE problem is akin to a parallel discussion on another thread - getting enough volunteers to operate a four, or more, day event, as as is the norm at the NBRSA score Championships. From my perspective, a properly conducted score event, featuring both formats (IBS/NBRSA & UBR), would need to be, at least, a six day event.
That said, I will again state, that, based upon personal experience, I have never felt handicapped, in any way, based upon caliber - I have either shot well, or, "stunk the place up", and I have won/placed/shown at the NBRSA National Championship level, opting to shoot with, "stuff that'll never work", against the mass of thirty caliber rivals. I have nothing against UBR, I simply believe, that regardless of format/target/discipline, winners win and losers whine . . .or, in other words, regardless of discipline, the dedicated will excel, and dominate.
Back to the OP, and, my intial primary concern: if attendance is limited, how will we motivate potential sponsors? I do believe this a worthy cause - we need to discuss and identify how to make it work. Fore example: should it be limited to VfS? ? ? Keep 'em ON the X! RG
P.S. Since I've been deprived of emoticons, please do not misinterpret my attempts @ facetious humor.
Faced with the choice of either shooting two guns, and TWO full rotations a day, most people opt for the easier VfS, as there is less equipment to move about, not to mention the easier aiming and handling of the 13.5 # rifles. I've experienced the two guns thing several times now, and will not do it again - I, and I believe most others, shoot for enjoyment, not a workout.
I am very opinionated, that the National Championships should be a one gun, one yardage per day affair. THE problem is akin to a parallel discussion on another thread - getting enough volunteers to operate a four, or more, day event, as as is the norm at the NBRSA score Championships. From my perspective, a properly conducted score event, featuring both formats (IBS/NBRSA & UBR), would need to be, at least, a six day event.
That said, I will again state, that, based upon personal experience, I have never felt handicapped, in any way, based upon caliber - I have either shot well, or, "stunk the place up", and I have won/placed/shown at the NBRSA National Championship level, opting to shoot with, "stuff that'll never work", against the mass of thirty caliber rivals. I have nothing against UBR, I simply believe, that regardless of format/target/discipline, winners win and losers whine . . .or, in other words, regardless of discipline, the dedicated will excel, and dominate.
Back to the OP, and, my intial primary concern: if attendance is limited, how will we motivate potential sponsors? I do believe this a worthy cause - we need to discuss and identify how to make it work. Fore example: should it be limited to VfS? ? ? Keep 'em ON the X! RG
P.S. Since I've been deprived of emoticons, please do not misinterpret my attempts @ facetious humor.
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Time to inject some basic Score Target math: .308 minus .243 = .0325 -Al
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Hmmm. I knew they were teaching newfangled math in school today but, damn!
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Randy, nobodys whining. It's math. Have you shot both? I hope you will. It has proven to be very equal. I still feel like I can be competitive shooting a 30 but the results are statistically significant by now. Most of the winning is being done with a 6mm. If your logic was correct, that too much is being taken away from a 30, then a 22 should dominate.
Perhaps I'm looking at it backwards and a 30 should dominate. Either way, if it weren't VERY equal, either a 30 or a 22 should be doing most of the winning.
Good point Al and of course, you are correct. It has to do with the radius rather than the diameter. That being said, I'm very surprised at the disingenuousness of the replies. I think it is generally accepted in the benchrest community that the 6PPC is the most accurate round on the planet. I've seen that opinion voiced on this board more than once and never challenged. If the theories being put forth on this thread are truly believed, why is it that virtually every VFS competitor in both IBS and NBRSA shoots some type of 30 cal, usually the 30BR? If they really believed what they are saying then why don't they choose to shoot "the most accurate round on the planet"? I think the answer is easy. The competitor shooting the bullet that makes the biggest hole has the advantage. I will still say, since my math has been corrected, that if you give me a .0325 advantage on every bull, I will beat you more often than not.
I will repeat, I support what Jim has in mind and there is a way to make it happen without a six day shoot.
Rick
Hunter
Runnin' Along
Rick, I think your .065 math is correct, since the .308 has a .0325 advantage on both sides of an IBS target.
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My math skills, as you can see, are pretty weak. It's been a very long time since high school geometry. But since it is best edge scoring, I'm thinking Al may be correct It doesn't matter where the other side ends up. We only care about that part of the bullet closest to the chigger. Either way, it seems very clear to me that the bigger bullet has a distinct advantage over the smaller. If it weren't that way most shooters would choose the smaller, lighter recoiling case that also happens to be "the most accurate cartridge on the planet". I will also add that in UBR SSOY competition -Custom Class, only 2 of the top 10 shot a 30 BR. They placed 6th & 9th. All the rest either shot a 6PPC or a 220 Beggs.
My point, again, is that if you give shooters a choice without the penalty, the majority will choose a 6 or a 22.
Rick
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Mike - you're not looking at it backwards, just misinterpreting what I say. ;-) I'm not saying anything is being, "taken away" from the the thirty - just that's it's two different games. Especially in the IBS/NBRSA Grand Aggregate format, I don't, "give away", anything shooting my .224s, 6mms, or even my 20 BR.
Going back to 1987, my sole gripe with the NBRSA score target (200Yd. version) is that it is not incremental enough: the current target, having the same (approx. 1/2 MOA) ten-ring is ample, but demanding. However, to my liking, not "punishing" (incremental) enough to deliberately capitalize on that mere 0.032" radial advantage. Even the .25" spacing was roughly 7 times the [so called] scoring advantage - again, WAY beyond dope-able! ;-) On the "old" 200Yd. target, which featured 1/4" ring spacing, there could have been more merit to the scoring advantage argument.
I offer the contemporary X-ring (1/8" dot) as evidence: the average 200 Yd. X-count is well under 1/4th of possible . . . in other words, mostly luck. Back when Bill Creasy kept IBS season score statistics (all registered tournaments), the average WINNING X-cout never exceeded 9. ;-) This luck transfers directly to scoring - nobody can dope for the difference in bullet diameter - miss the combination of vector and velocity, by the equivalent of a 1.25 MPH perpendicular (constant form mzzle to target) wind, and you just nabbed a nine - 20BR, .30 BR, anything, or, in-between. ;-)
The problem is, compared to that "original" target, you can grossly compound that miss and still get a nine, which is just as good as an almost ten! ;-) Nothing is perfect. I'm not arguing for going back - already lost that battle many times - I just shoot what everyone else voted for. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
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Randy< it will be presented as a 4 day event as requested by the majority of two gun shooters.
Guys WITH NO DISRESPECT to any discipline this event will use the IBS/NBRSA target it is not up for debate. If you think a 6mm in the correct hands can't compete with a 30 you are badly mistaken. There are STILL numerous records held by the 6MM and I can assure you numerous people have tried to beat them countless times. I personally have seen a 6mm dominate a score event several times and I also have scored many IBS targets.
Question for thought---- If the target is mathematically "caliber neutral" and all calibers are equal, Where does the recoil advantage of a 6mm over a 30 come in? Isn't that coming back into the "ADVANTAGE" area?
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Jim,
For the record I don't think I have seen anything on this thread or the other that has suggested you use anything other than the IBS/NBRSA target. I certainly haven't. All I have attempted is to have you guys admit that a bigger bullet has an advantage in best edge scoring. To this point no wants to be candid and admit that. Also, it wasn't me or any other UBR competitor AFAIK that suggested we compete in this event. It was you that made the overture. And FWIW there is a considerable difference in being competitive and having an advantage.
I sincerely hope your match is successful and I wish you the best in your efforts to promote it. I think it will be good for the benchrest community.
Rick
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Rick: post # three (3) in this thread, by Mike Ezell; "I like it Jim, but a "Triple Crown" would be even better. UBR on the last day...no x's, just points. That's UBR and that would shake things up, especially at 200. There is the caliber neutral aspect but I'm sure most if not all the IBS and NBRSA shooters will be shooting a 30 anyway.
I think it's a great idea, either way. "
Please note that I included - did not clip - that last, "qualifier" sentence in Mike's quote. The implication WAS there! ;-)
We agree that such an event will be good for the sport - let's see what develops. As you can see, I am not alone in the opinion that the bullet diameter is a highly over-rated attribute. Again, I want to make it clear, I do not believe any discipline is superior to any other - merely that they differ - and, that, on a give day/event, the best shooter wins. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
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The idea of a Score Super Shoot, for lack of a better term, is a great idea!
Several of us tried to generate interest in just such a concept several years back, to no avail.
Hats off to all involved in trying to make this happen.
Al, that is EXACTLY what I want to accomplish. I want anyone that would like to shoot any gun that fits in the rules to be able to shoot. I don't care if they shoot competition of any kind normally or not nor do I care if it a group or long range competitor. It will have to follow a set of rules that IBS follows for the gun guidelines. still early in the planning but would love to see as many people that want to shoot be able to shoot. THERE WILL BE A CASH OPTION for everyone that wants to participate. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. JC
Randy,
I see your point. It appears I overlooked what Mike had to say. At any rate, I've had this conversation with Jim before and I never entertained the idea that there would be anything but the IBS/NBRSA target. I'm pretty sure there won't be any UBR involvement, but I've been wrong before.
Rick
R.G. Robinett
"That'll never work."
Hey, Wilbur - ya see: that Nyhus fellow has all that fancy stuff!
Jim, let me know what I can do to assist - you know where to find me. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
Jim, let me know what I can do to assist - you know where to find me. Keep 'em ON the X! RG