scope bounce??
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Kent Harshman
Member
Are you...
...dry-firing on a case with a dead primer in it? If not, better try that before you evaluate the "jump" in your bolt handle/scope. Your rifle is never dry-fired on an empty chamber when expecting to put a bullet on the target.
...dry-firing on a case with a dead primer in it? If not, better try that before you evaluate the "jump" in your bolt handle/scope. Your rifle is never dry-fired on an empty chamber when expecting to put a bullet on the target.
What you are seeing is the movement of the gun caused by the inertial force of the firing pin acceleration and the deceleration. It will be more on an empty chamber than one with a loaded round as the primer softens the deceleration phase. One "fix" would be a lighter firing pin.
Bob Kingsbury
New member
I have seen some odd things with light firing pins, I don't think they are adviseable.
Kent Harshman
Member
Ditto!...
...what Bob said...
I'm not smart enough to figure much out on my own, but I am smart enough to keep my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open when SMART people are talking... (like George Kelbly, Jim Borden, Mike Bryant, Pat Byrne & Sid Goodling, to name a few) ...and one better consider spring tension, firing pin fall AND firing pin inertia when evaluating fire control.
...what Bob said...
I'm not smart enough to figure much out on my own, but I am smart enough to keep my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open when SMART people are talking... (like George Kelbly, Jim Borden, Mike Bryant, Pat Byrne & Sid Goodling, to name a few) ...and one better consider spring tension, firing pin fall AND firing pin inertia when evaluating fire control.
jackie schmidt
New member
Again What Bob Said
Short Range Benchrest is different from other disciplines, where lock time seems to very important, (High Power and other off hand shooting).
Like Kent, you pick up on what the people who really know this stuff say. For instance, there is a growing trend toward even heavier firing pins in 100-200 yard Benchrest.
The Kelblys have always considered anything less than .220 firing pin fall to be too little.
Long time ago I fixed all of my Farleys so that they had at least .220 inch fall. I also shoot no less than 23 pounds of spring tension. The reason I do this is because the Rifles agg better. Sure, it makes the bolt opening a little stiffer, but that is a small price to pay for a Rifle that has zero ignition problems.
Since someone is probably going to ask how to check the spring tension, it is easy. Strip your bolt. Then take a bathroom scale and set it on a table. Place the firing pin tip on the scale, and while cupping nothing but the shroud, slowly push down untill you feel the spring give. Take note of the poundage. Do it a couple of times to be sure.
While doing this, be sure and press straight down, and do not let the tip slip. A sudden side motion could bend the tip of the firing pin. (I know, because I did it once).
Here is a little story on how important the amount of travel is. A few years back, a friend built a new Rifle on a popular action. It was slick as grease, and the bolt lift was effortless.
The Rifle would not shoot. I got to looking at it, and noticed that the firing pin fall was only about .140. We went to my shop, modified the trigger hanger so that the firing pin fall was at least .220. Back at the range, the first group after this modification was a "mid one". That convinced me.
The easiest way to cure what you are seeing in your scope when you dry fire is simply do not look through your scope when you dry fire........jackie
Short Range Benchrest is different from other disciplines, where lock time seems to very important, (High Power and other off hand shooting).
Like Kent, you pick up on what the people who really know this stuff say. For instance, there is a growing trend toward even heavier firing pins in 100-200 yard Benchrest.
The Kelblys have always considered anything less than .220 firing pin fall to be too little.
Long time ago I fixed all of my Farleys so that they had at least .220 inch fall. I also shoot no less than 23 pounds of spring tension. The reason I do this is because the Rifles agg better. Sure, it makes the bolt opening a little stiffer, but that is a small price to pay for a Rifle that has zero ignition problems.
Since someone is probably going to ask how to check the spring tension, it is easy. Strip your bolt. Then take a bathroom scale and set it on a table. Place the firing pin tip on the scale, and while cupping nothing but the shroud, slowly push down untill you feel the spring give. Take note of the poundage. Do it a couple of times to be sure.
While doing this, be sure and press straight down, and do not let the tip slip. A sudden side motion could bend the tip of the firing pin. (I know, because I did it once).
Here is a little story on how important the amount of travel is. A few years back, a friend built a new Rifle on a popular action. It was slick as grease, and the bolt lift was effortless.
The Rifle would not shoot. I got to looking at it, and noticed that the firing pin fall was only about .140. We went to my shop, modified the trigger hanger so that the firing pin fall was at least .220. Back at the range, the first group after this modification was a "mid one". That convinced me.
The easiest way to cure what you are seeing in your scope when you dry fire is simply do not look through your scope when you dry fire.
.......jackieJackie: I test my springs the same way but use a thick piece of Delrin that I bored a hole big enough for the major diameter of the pin tip, then cut a second larger hole above this...a 'stepped' hole. Then you can do the 'press down' drill w/o danger of bending the pin tip. -Al
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Skeet you are getting some really good input here.
but I have another question..... what sort of setup are you referring to? There really can and often IS a timing issue with Rem 700 based guns that will include crosshair jump. Having a 700 action "partially done" is almost guarantees timing problems.
This can completely screw your accuracy just as certainly as the other items mentioned.
The single MOST IMPORTANT factor in making an accurate rifle is IMO the builder/gunsmith. Every time one of these singular items is mentioned it conjures up a host of related issues! Man, there's just a ton of stuff going on allasametime ........... Kent alluded to the situation when he mentioned some names of people who truly understand accuracy in the end it's a BUNCH OF ITEMS all working together.
I can think of several things to "test" in your case but I don't think it's fruitful. Does the gun SHOOT?
al
but I have another question..... what sort of setup are you referring to? There really can and often IS a timing issue with Rem 700 based guns that will include crosshair jump. Having a 700 action "partially done" is almost guarantees timing problems.
This can completely screw your accuracy just as certainly as the other items mentioned.
The single MOST IMPORTANT factor in making an accurate rifle is IMO the builder/gunsmith. Every time one of these singular items is mentioned it conjures up a host of related issues! Man, there's just a ton of stuff going on allasametime ........... Kent alluded to the situation when he mentioned some names of people who truly understand accuracy
in the end it's a BUNCH OF ITEMS all working together.I can think of several things to "test" in your case but I don't think it's fruitful. Does the gun SHOOT?
al
Kent Harshman
Member
Jackie & Al...
...along the same lines as the way you guys are testing firing pin springs, but for those of us who are afraid of doing the very thing you warn about...bending the tip...do you think this method is as accurate for measuring spring tension?...
First, find a small plug (similar to what Al is talking about) made out of aluminum, delrin, wood, or something softer than your steel firing pin that will fit inside your boltface and extend about 1/4" beyond the bolt nose. Next, lay the bolt (and the plug) on the scale and zero the scale with the bolt weight (and the plug) so that you're not factoring that weight in to the total. Next, uncock the bolt so that the firing pin is showing through the boltface. Finally, with the small plug lying on the scale, put the face of the bolt against it and push down on the scale. When you feel the firing pin start to compress, you have your spring tension.
...along the same lines as the way you guys are testing firing pin springs, but for those of us who are afraid of doing the very thing you warn about...bending the tip...do you think this method is as accurate for measuring spring tension?...
First, find a small plug (similar to what Al is talking about) made out of aluminum, delrin, wood, or something softer than your steel firing pin that will fit inside your boltface and extend about 1/4" beyond the bolt nose. Next, lay the bolt (and the plug) on the scale and zero the scale with the bolt weight (and the plug) so that you're not factoring that weight in to the total. Next, uncock the bolt so that the firing pin is showing through the boltface. Finally, with the small plug lying on the scale, put the face of the bolt against it and push down on the scale. When you feel the firing pin start to compress, you have your spring tension.
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D
Don
Guest
You guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be.
It takes a real "gorrilla" move to bend a Remington style firing pin assembly when checking it on a scale. The smaller .062" o.d. styles obviously require a little more attention.
No need to fabricate anything special, just take an existing wrench socket, extended style preferred, I use a 3/8", but any diameter that will allow the pin to inset up to the shoulder area for its bearing surface, zero out the scale, and measure.............job done.
Oh, and these guys that strut around at the tournaments or on messageboards proclaiming that they swap out their firing pin springs every season, in order to keep things "fresh", are just pissing good time and money down the drain. Unless they have run across a bad batch of springs, the springs should hold their proper tension for many years. Anybody that measures spring tension with a scale will find this out, and save themselves alot of time, money, and worrys...........Don
It takes a real "gorrilla" move to bend a Remington style firing pin assembly when checking it on a scale. The smaller .062" o.d. styles obviously require a little more attention.
No need to fabricate anything special, just take an existing wrench socket, extended style preferred, I use a 3/8", but any diameter that will allow the pin to inset up to the shoulder area for its bearing surface, zero out the scale, and measure.............job done.
Oh, and these guys that strut around at the tournaments or on messageboards proclaiming that they swap out their firing pin springs every season, in order to keep things "fresh", are just pissing good time and money down the drain. Unless they have run across a bad batch of springs, the springs should hold their proper tension for many years. Anybody that measures spring tension with a scale will find this out, and save themselves alot of time, money, and worrys...........Don
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jackie schmidt
New member
Don
I agree. The spring tension in my favorite Rifle has not changed any measurable amounnt in 6 years. And it has been fired thousands, and thousands, of times...........jackie
I agree. The spring tension in my favorite Rifle has not changed any measurable amounnt in 6 years. And it has been fired thousands, and thousands, of times...........jackie
Bob Kingsbury
New member
Nearly any firing pin in a Remington action can be found to be binding
somewhere. I have rarely had bad ignition that was cured just by a spring.
Firing pin fall generally runs high and that makes up for some of the binding, but is not ideal. Adding another trigger( after market) sometimes adds greatly to this,
as the sears often set higher. I have seen pin fall distance as high as .295
in a remington with a jewell trigger, (not the fault of the trigger) Some carefull surgery is needed there.
The gunsmith must then put on his tool and die hat , since we have no trigger
hanger for easy adjustment. This is where the custom action shines. light
firing pins can make odd shaped groups, not always verticle
somewhere. I have rarely had bad ignition that was cured just by a spring.
Firing pin fall generally runs high and that makes up for some of the binding, but is not ideal. Adding another trigger( after market) sometimes adds greatly to this,
as the sears often set higher. I have seen pin fall distance as high as .295
in a remington with a jewell trigger, (not the fault of the trigger) Some carefull surgery is needed there.
The gunsmith must then put on his tool and die hat , since we have no trigger
hanger for easy adjustment. This is where the custom action shines. light
firing pins can make odd shaped groups, not always verticle
G
GoGator
Guest
I always find these firing pin related discussions very interesting. I wonder why an electronic system similar to the Remington 700 EtronX hasn't been developed as it seems it would cure many of the troublesome variables that must be dealt with. Is it due to a lack of available primers or the fact that gunsmiths are able to overcome the problems created by the current firing pin system. Just curious, as I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to add any expertise.
Thanks, George
Thanks, George
all of the above.
Add that primers are a valuable tuning aid (you may benefit by having a variety of them) and that they were only available on one size and you'll see why the various experiments fizzled.......and there was some work done.
But perhaps larger than that??
__OPINION ALERT!!!___
__STAND BY for a teetotally insubstantuated and unfoundicated OPINION___
I believe that the overriding vertical "whip" or vibration component generated by the interaction of the manual trigger/striker assembly is vital to tuning. And tuning is a vital component of REAL accuracy.......
FWIW, exactly whatcha' paid!
al
jackie schmidt
New member
Electronic Ignition
The only advantage that a electronic primer has over a conventional primer is locktime, ie, the time from when the sear first moves untill the primer discharges.
I personally feel that there would be some accuracy gain if you could employ an electronic ignition system in a Benchrest Rifle. How much?? Know way of knowing unless someonedid it.
I only saw one Remington Etronix at the range. It was in 22-250. It shot like any other Remington 700 in 22-250.
The problem Remington had was they put all of that space age tech in a Rifle that still had the same production tolerance actions and barrels. At that particular time, Remington was making somepretty sorry barrels.
Jim Carmicheal wrote a pretty good follow up article about the Remington system. He blamed, (rightly so), the demise of the system, in the market place, on Remington offerring the system in a rifle venue where showed little improvement, and the shooting publics ignorance of the system.
Electronics have come a long way since the late 90's. Just look at a cellphone. Heck, in the past couple of years they have improved these to the point that it will do anything a home based computer will, in a package the same size as, well, a cell phone.
The market for an electronic ignition system is Competitive Benchrest. We are the ones who shoot Rifles that are accurate enough to actually take advantage of what ever benefit an electronic system would offer. We also shoot in a Competitive Arena that demands that level of precision and accuracy.
But this stuff is expensive. Rumor has it that Remington spent a considerable amount on development. I wonder if they would be willing to let go if this info to some enterprising group who just might be interested in marketing the item to Benchrest Shooters.
The system would have to be a retro fit, in other words, what ever would go in the bolt would have to retro fit into a typical bolt, such as found on a Panda. The trigger would also have to have the same criteria.
I have never seen the inside of a Etronix bolt. I don't know how difficult it would be to adapt a Etronix "firing pin" to one of my Farleys, which is very similiar to a Remington.
If this could be done, I might we willing to put something together and give it a try.
But, I am not sure Remington ever made small rifle primers.
Anybody out there know anything about this......jackie
The only advantage that a electronic primer has over a conventional primer is locktime, ie, the time from when the sear first moves untill the primer discharges.
I personally feel that there would be some accuracy gain if you could employ an electronic ignition system in a Benchrest Rifle. How much?? Know way of knowing unless someonedid it.
I only saw one Remington Etronix at the range. It was in 22-250. It shot like any other Remington 700 in 22-250.
The problem Remington had was they put all of that space age tech in a Rifle that still had the same production tolerance actions and barrels. At that particular time, Remington was making somepretty sorry barrels.
Jim Carmicheal wrote a pretty good follow up article about the Remington system. He blamed, (rightly so), the demise of the system, in the market place, on Remington offerring the system in a rifle venue where showed little improvement, and the shooting publics ignorance of the system.
Electronics have come a long way since the late 90's. Just look at a cellphone. Heck, in the past couple of years they have improved these to the point that it will do anything a home based computer will, in a package the same size as, well, a cell phone.
The market for an electronic ignition system is Competitive Benchrest. We are the ones who shoot Rifles that are accurate enough to actually take advantage of what ever benefit an electronic system would offer. We also shoot in a Competitive Arena that demands that level of precision and accuracy.
But this stuff is expensive. Rumor has it that Remington spent a considerable amount on development. I wonder if they would be willing to let go if this info to some enterprising group who just might be interested in marketing the item to Benchrest Shooters.
The system would have to be a retro fit, in other words, what ever would go in the bolt would have to retro fit into a typical bolt, such as found on a Panda. The trigger would also have to have the same criteria.
I have never seen the inside of a Etronix bolt. I don't know how difficult it would be to adapt a Etronix "firing pin" to one of my Farleys, which is very similiar to a Remington.
If this could be done, I might we willing to put something together and give it a try.
But, I am not sure Remington ever made small rifle primers.
Anybody out there know anything about this......jackie
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Boyd Allen
Active member
A number of years ago (I forget.), when they first came out, I got a chance to test one of these. http://www.voere.com/model_vec91.htm
The caseless ammunition is fired electronically and the target shown on the web page was representative of what I thought was outstanding accuracy, much better than anyone would expect of that style and weight rifle. The particular lot of ammunition that we used had Berger bullets. The only drawback is the cost of the ammunition. Of course there is absolutely no way to reload. After ignition, nothing was left.
The caseless ammunition is fired electronically and the target shown on the web page was representative of what I thought was outstanding accuracy, much better than anyone would expect of that style and weight rifle. The particular lot of ammunition that we used had Berger bullets. The only drawback is the cost of the ammunition. Of course there is absolutely no way to reload. After ignition, nothing was left.
Bob Kingsbury
New member
Jackie
Electronic primers are not new, the military has used them for over half
of your lifetime, in aircraft machine guns. A contact in place of the firing pin
which is insolated from the bolt body. Would probably make great bolt
lift, with out the 20 lb spring. The primers would have to be good to beat
the aggs at the nationals, wow
Electronic primers are not new, the military has used them for over half
of your lifetime, in aircraft machine guns. A contact in place of the firing pin
which is insolated from the bolt body. Would probably make great bolt
lift, with out the 20 lb spring. The primers would have to be good to beat
the aggs at the nationals, wow