Savage vs Custom Action

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DougMH

Guest
I recently posted a topic with a proposed spec for a Savage 12 Precision Target Action based short range BR rifle. I received a lot of comments about the spec... and I appreciate them.

The ones that have me most puzzled are comments on the Savage vs custom action.

Can someone please tell me why the action plays such an important role in short range BR shooting? I read about 4 lug locks and precision machining, etc. It just seems to me if a Savage action is timed and trued and it's chambered and locked doesn't it then become more about the barrel and it's chambering? Does a Savage action not meet some other specification or BR rule that I'm missing?

I'd just like to hear a reasoned, documented article or statement that says here's why you need a $1,400 plus vs $560 action to have a winning BR rifle.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but sometimes Joe does it one way just because Jim did it that way... because Jim said it was the best way and now Joe passes on that it's the best way.

I'm sure if you look at national competitions you will not find Savage actions among the winners... but is it because all the shooters have bought into what Jim and Joe said and has nothing really to do with the action at all?

Just asking?
 
Can someone please tell me why the action plays such an important role in short range BR shooting?
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The action of any rifle is the Hart of the rifle..... The customs are purpose built....... Mostly for Short Range Benchrest...
I have AND like Savages.... They just can't be built to Truly compete day in day out... Short Range Benchrest is VERY difficult. Or should I say Difficult to Win regularly... Even a single yardage..
Takes Damn Fine components AND the shooter to be consistent in this Game.. Don't go in with a arm tied behind your back.

There is more than just getting all the mechanical parameters all squared away in a non custom action....

I still own my XP100 Sleeved Rem.... It WILL shoot............. BUT... Never an Agg win due to the speed at which I can run the action (non coned bolt or tennon).... Still the bolt operation is just NO Custom...

Just the way it is.... Ask yourself a question.......... Do you WANT to get into SR Benchrest........ OR.... Do you really want to play with building a "semi-custom" and "try to compete / have "fun" "...?
Doug, you need to get behind a REAL Benchrest gun......... It'll be more clear.

cale
 
OK, I don't know if this cuts the mustard for a "reasoned, documented article or statement". It's impirical in nature.

Go to http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/_scoreindex.php . Go to each report. Look at the actions listed. Look for Savages. See where they placed the score they shot. You'll have a hard time finding any because most everyone has already tried, found they were spending more to get less and gave in to the inevitable. I didn't have time to look through every one. In the 10 or so that I did look at, I found one Savage that wasn't in a factory class.

Now, go to this site. http://ultimatebenchrest.com/results-2012

Look at the modified class. You will find some Savages. Find the same person shooting in the custom class. Compare scores.

You'll find what we're telling you to be well supported by the data. That is, if you want to win, you get a custom or maybe a customized Remington.

Disclaimer: I have a Savage in 6BR. I like it. It's great for varmints. It's fine for a factory or modified class. It just won't run with the customs.
 
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DougMH

I can give my opinions based on experience with both.

I shoot Nesika and Bat custom actions in short-range BR. My husband (kinda thick in the head) had a purpose-built BR gun built on one of the very 1st available RBLP Target actions from Savage that he uses as a HV bag gun, and I have shot it from time to time as well.

When it's all said and done, here is what I find, having shot them both is registered competition and hundreds of rounds of practice and load development:

1st the Cons:

The action is big and heavy. It is also "clunky". Things rattle both in the action and in the bolt. Yes, yes--the floating bolthead, I know.

The action requires a larger shank barrel than the customs, meaning that it is hard to fit a LV barrel to it because of the thread diameter. With the large shank, a HV barrel is easier to fit. This makes the barrel heavy.

Stock choice is limited. Very few stock makers offer short-range contour stocks for the Savage. Many are too heavy to use on a LV rifle.

Even with the "Evolution" trigger, and a timing job, the bolt lift (without a case in the chamber) is almost twice as heavy as either of my custom actions. Read this to mean, it is twice as hard to lift the bolt. Read this to mean that lifting the bolt upsets the gun in the bags considerably more than with the custom actions. Read this to mean that it takes more time to get back on target after every shot. This is magnified greatly when unlocking the bolt on a fired case.

Even with the "Evolution" trigger, and a timing job, the bolt cam force (without a case in the chamber) is greater than either of my custom actions. Read this to mean, it is harder to close the bolt. Read this to mean that closing the bolt upsets the gun in the bags considerably more than with the custom actions. Read this to mean that it takes more time to get back on target after every shot. This is magnified slightly when chambering an actual round.

The bolt is not coned nor is the barrel tapered, so most of the time feeding and chambering is not very smooth. It is possible to jam the round between the boltface and the flat of the barrel tenon. Either of these things happening can change the dimensions of the round, deform the bullet, or simply add to the hassle of having to dig the loaded case out of the action and guiding it into the chamber by hand.

If you want to glue the action into the stock, the barrels have to be conventionally mounted against a shoulder, with the recoil lug permanently attached to the reciever. This means no barrel nut.

The supplied trigger-guard is heavy.

Now the Pros:

The Savage action is capable of shooting the same size groups as the customs.

If you have all day to shoot those groups that is. Both my husband and I have managed groups in the "ones", just not as many as with the customs. It is so hard to be smooth in the process of extracting, ejecting, and chambering rounds that too much time is required to get back on target between shots.

If you are a "runner" it is darn-near impossible to get all 5 record shots downrange before a condition change. It is simply no where near as fast. On my best attempts, I am AT LEAST twice as fast with the customs, and they DO NOT have ejectors fitted to them.

It is 1/2 the price for the action.

It has a floating bolt-head.

Easily adjustable firing pin protrusion.

So, in actual use next to custom actions, I can say that the Savage action is every bit a accurate as the custom. It is just alot harder to use.

Because of the weight of the action and bolt, the large diameter needed for the barrel, the limited availability of lightwieght stocks, and the heavy factory triggerguard it is almost impossible to get down into a 10-1/2 pound LV configuration.

It is frustrating to use when compared to a custom.

At the end of the day, it wasn't any less expensive either. Gunsmithing costs are higher on the Savage (trigger, action timing, barreling, flat and parallel recoil lug, pinning the recoil lug, stock fitting, etc).

That's my two cents anyway,

Lisa
 
There you have it!! Almost sounds like your mind is already made up though. I have seen some really good shooting savage actions but i havent ever seen a full blown LV 6ppc point blank savage. Must be a reason!! Or two!! Good luck and let us know how it all works out. Thanks Lee
 
I'd agree with everything Lisa said except for the floating bolt head being in the "pro" category. It's a band-aid for something that a custom action won't have. And it makes the rifle buckle at pressures that a solid head bolt action wouldn't even worry about.

I'd also add another "con" to the list; bedding.
 
DougMH said:
I'm sure if you look at national competitions you will not find Savage actions among the winners... but is it because all the shooters have bought into what Jim and Joe said and has nothing really to do with the action at all?
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NO!
I have known several people who were convinced Savage actions were just as good. They all sank a lot of time and money into Savage based rifles. They all shoot custom actions now. This was good enough for me , I never tried a Savage.
 
DougMH, I am a relatively newcomer to Benchrest shooting (4 years) and found myself in much the same situation as yourself. I had just purchased a Remington 700 in .223 and then discovered Benchrest and wanted to shoot. I got pretty much the same responses here as yourself and others....Get a Custom. I went ahead and did some improving on that rifle (Kreiger barrel, stock, pillar bedding, trigger work) and shot the first year and had a blast. I'm still shooting that rifle for fun and other non-benchrest style club matches. I then built another rifle on a custom action. It shoots the pants off of that Remington but I still love to shoot both.

A lot depends on the level of competition you are seeking and whats available at clubs near you. If you go over to the Competition Forum and scroll down a few entries you will find the results from the Harrison Sportsmen's Club in Michigan. I shot all of the score events last year and loved it. My schedule this year hasn't allowed me to shoot there, but they put on an excellent match. If you look at the results you will find about a third of the shooters are in factory class. They show up and shoot along with the rest of us and have just as good a time as those shooting a full custom.

Only you can decide what level you wish to shoot at.
 
Big Gunner said:
DougMH

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.Lisa
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Lisa, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your long and detailed word picture. The cons all make perfect sense (based on my use of my F/TR rifle in a fun match). Every criticism I can now see plainly based on my Savage actioned F/TR rifle... which I love BTW for it's purpose.

Again, thanks for taking so much time to explain.

I have a chance to buy a nice, used Panda 30BR custom... just have to decide if I want to jump in so deep.

In fact, thanks for all the responses... brutal and otherwise. Sometimes you just have to smack somebody up side the head to get a point across.
 
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DougMH said:
Lisa, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your long and detailed word picture. The cons all make perfect sense (based on my use of my F/TR rifle in a fun match). Every criticism I can now see plainly based on my Savage actioned F/TR rifle... which I love BTW for it's purpose.

Again, thanks for taking so much time to explain.

I have a chance to buy a nice, used Panda 30BR custom... just have to decide if I want to jump in so deep.

In fact, thanks for all the responses... brutal and otherwise. Sometimes you just have to smack somebody up side the head to get a point across.
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Doug,
It appears that you are a sensible, reasonable person that listens to good advice from experienced people.
Don't let it bother you for a minute when considering buying that Panda. As long as you keep the initial purchase to a fair market price, you will almost surely be able to recoup you $$ should you decide later to exit the game. That's one of the positives about our sport. Bullets, powder, primers and barrels are expendables. Actions, stocks and good glass retain or appreciate in value. I think you'll find it's cheaper than golf or bass tournaments. :)

Rick
 
Hmm...interesting topic for my first day on these forums. I have Savage rifles, and they are very fine shooting implements, no doubt about it. In fact, my Savages are some of my favorites. For the money they really can't be beat. If I'm going out to hunt a hog or a deer, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll likely have my Savage slung over my shoulder.

That said, Team Savage HAS taken 1000yd titles and even broken records with STOCK Savage rifles. Why is it everyone is ignoring this fact? This isn't speculation, and it's not debatable, it's fact. Let me quote:

This list of long-range events Team Savage has won recently is getting almost as long as the distances they shoot at.

They recently added the 2010 F T/R National Championship to that list by taking the team competition in grand fashion. The won both the 600 and 1,000 yard events, establishing an new 1,000-yard record of 778-21X.

Darrell Buell of Damascus, OR; John Weil of Welches, OR; Monte Milanuk of Wenatchee WA and Stan Pate of Milwaukie, OR made the trip to Sacramento, CA to represent Savage Arms. The competition featured some of the best talent and most expensive custom rifles from around the Country. But, once again, those expensive custom guns were no match for four skilled marksmen armed with stock Savage Model 12 rifles.

"We continue to be thrilled with the winning results from Team Savage. It says a lot about them and it says a lot about the rifles," Savage VP of Sales & Marketing Brian Herrick said. "We're not trying to tell anybody that they can just buy a Savage and shoot like Darrell, John, Monte and Stan, but it should be fairly obvious by now that shooting stock Savage rifles isn't holding these guys back at all."
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__________________________________________________
Pressure Washing Jacksonville, FL
Deck Staining & Restoration Jacksonville, FL
 
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Histle said:
Hmm...interesting topic for my first day on these forums. I have Savage rifles, and they are very fine shooting implements, no doubt about it. In fact, my Savages are some of my favorites. For the money they really can't be beat. If I'm going out to hunt a hog or a deer, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll likely have my Savage slung over my shoulder.

That said, Team Savage HAS taken 1000yd titles and even broken records with STOCK Savage rifles. Why is it everyone is ignoring this fact? This isn't speculation, and it's not debatable, it's fact. Let me quote:
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Histle, I'm not experienced enough in the game to answer conclusively or convincingly, but just seeing the 100-200-300 rifles in action, it's pretty easy to see it's a completely different ball game than shooting 1,000 yds in many respects. I don't shoot BR at 1,000, but my Savage based rifle has shot a 194-5X F/TR score from there (... at MCB Quantico, VA where winds after 10am are all over the place and drive scores down considerably). If you know Savage well, and it sounds like you do, I think you'll surely have to agree with Lisa's comments about action. Savages are clunky compared to what I saw at the short range BR match. Those BAT and other custom actions, glide into position and the bolt handle almost falls down into the locked position. In my post I didn't deny that they were super, just that I wondered if Savage could compete. Also, read the post indicating they may be able to, but it would be a chore to do so. Savage's floating bolt must be compressed forward and down which does take some effort... and it does tend to move the rifle when doing so... especially of you use soft seating like I do.

I love my Savage F/TR and I'm confident when shooting it from 300-1,000yds. In the BR match, I was even proud of three of my 5 targets being 50's, one a 49 ... and the other I'd rather not talk about. I shot an 8 due to a premature jacking of the trigger. But you've got to see these guys shooting 250-13X and better to understand I guess (In F-Class, the X-ring is 5" at 1,000 yds. In 200 BR, the X is about 1/8" I'd say). Heck, I'm addicted and I haven't even shoved the (read that $$$$) needle in my arm yet.
 
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SGJennings said:
Well, OK, Histle, if you're confident, here ya go.

http://www.miamirifle-pistol.org/calendar.php

Sunday September 9th, Miami Rifle and Pistol Club. 100 and 200 yard score benchrest match. $100 per point difference. Bring your factory Savage and bring cash.

Greg J.
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Are you selling tickets for this? Also, It's good to hear there's such a club in FL. I'm 65 now and hope to retire on July 31, 2013. My wife and I may try to buy something in FL for Winters. How long is the waiting list to get into your club?
 
For benchrest the ability to have the rifle return to battery to near 100% with spot on tracking, is very much desired.
From my experience it takes a "very effortless + silky smooth" primary extraction and bolt-cycle ability of the action, to obtain the desire.
Rests, bags, alignment, balance, brass resizing, etc.. all come into effect as well for tracking and return to battery capability. But if the action is being "jerked" with even small amounts of significance, everything is "out the window" to tracking/battery return.

Here is my input on: Custom Action -verses- Factory Trued Action:
- Configuration <> a benefit of a custom is you can get them setup how ever you may desire
- Silky/Smooth <> it typically will take some extensive "reworking" of a factory action to get as Silky/Smooth as a custom
- Price <> if you don't have your own resources to true and rework a factory action, you may spend a bunch to get it to custom presidencies, but at far less value..$$$
- Rigidity <> typically custom actions are "beefier", more metal, thicker tangs, fitted bolts, and some even longer threads. When the gun goes "bang" and pressure is expanded to the action, bolt, and barrel, distortion is taking place. The more metal (beefier) the action has the more it can absorb distortion, hence pressure. In most cases, a custom action can endure and with stain more pressure, and can shoot higher pressure loads (hotter). Also rigidity for supporting heavier and/or longer barrels.

As far as pure raw accuracy difference, IMO, I feel a trued factory are capable, but lack to tracking, primary extraction, pressure endurance, and rigidity.

Editing in:
Here is a "YouTube" video that I feel shows the "desired" action capability I wrote of above. The video was done to show "Free Re-coil" but also shows well the "desired" primary extraction and bolt-cycling ability that keeps the rifle tracking, return to battery position, and speed ability, that goes with Benchrest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTHjjCcr_44&feature=plcp


Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
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SGJennings said:
I hate to come off as an arrogant a$$ in my challenge. I just don't like to be snickered at. Intellectual pride is something of a weakness of mine.

Greg J.
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In my mind, there's no need to apologize Greg. Sometimes, the only way to deal with these types is tell them to put their money on the table and back up their claims with some real world shooting.

It's funny, some guys can't wait to get their whole foot in their mouth with their first post!:D
 
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