Savage Rebarrel

B

Brian

Guest
I have a Savage 112 in 22-250 that the barrel is pretty much shot out on. I'd like to rebarrel it and since I have a small stack of retired 6ppc barrels that still shoot decent I thought I'd use one for the project. My question is, should I turn the barrel down and use the barrel nut or should I cut a shoulder and eliminate the barrel nut? I want the rifle to be as accurate as possible so I'm willing to go either way.
 
Brian,
When we rebarrel a Savage Rifle, I just cut a shoulder and fit it like a Remington 700. Just true the face of the receiver. That way you do not have to mess with the barrel nut. Boe
 
Boe said:
Brian,
When we rebarrel a Savage Rifle, I just cut a shoulder and fit it like a Remington 700. Just true the face of the receiver. That way you do not have to mess with the barrel nut. Boe
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Thanks Boe but I'm not set up to true an action face. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that be a project in itself that would involve investing in special tooling? I need to save every dollar to buy barrels, bullets and powder for the upcoming season. This is just a cheap fun side project although I still want it to be as accurate as possible.
 
Brian, it is super easy to true the face of a Savage becuase it does not need to be dialed in according to the raceway since the bolt head floats. Simply thread a stub and while still in the lathe, install the action on it so it stops on the lugs. I use a jig for other actions but not for a Savage action unless I need to do the threads for some reason. The stub I am talking about is a piece of stock chucked up in the lathe and threaded for the action. It should be made so it extends fully inside the action and when you thread on the action, the internal action lugs hit the face of the stub. You have an action hanging off a threaded stub in your chuck. Gently touch up the face of the action and now the threads, lugs and face are true to each other. You can use the same stub several times. Every time you use it, chase the threads and re-face it. If it gets too loose, make another. If I can remember, I will post a pic the next time I do this. It can be argued that the barrel nut is better than a shouldered barrel for accuracy, it most certainly is not worse. I normally shoulder.
 
if the Savage action is an Accutriger era model, truing the action is a waste of time and money. Money wise the shoulder makes the gunsmith happy, but engineering wise the nut is best. If your barrels are strait 1.25" at the breech then go with a shoulder. I prefer the nut because it stretches the thread, and a stretched thread stays strait. If you decide to shoot a PPC round, I think Sharpshooter has bolt heads cut for them in stock. I'd do a 6BR simply cause you already have the right bolt head.

A few years back I rechambered a Savage 22-250 barrel that had a few rounds thru it. I simply chased the barrel thread a little longer and then shortened it about 3/4". Then did a major recrown, and shot mid three's and once in awhile a high two's group. I wish now that I'd redone it in something like 22BR or 22-250AI / .125" short. I'd slug the barrel and get a rough idea what it's like before using it for a tomato stake.
gary
 
I forgot to mention, if it is a newer action with a digitized number under the tang, it is already true. Savage now uses new CNC machine centers to make their actions and the face, lugs and threads are machined in one setup so therefore are true to each other.

Not sure if that is what the previous post was about but the Accutrigger has nothing to do with it.
 
alinwa said:
I disagree that "engineering wise the nut is better."

al
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I accept that. But hear me out before you tar & feather me. All threads have clearence, and it's virtually impossible to get a 100% contact. With a 1" or larger thread, I seriously doubt your seeing much more than 75% contact without grinding them. But a stretched thread is forced into contact, and is also strait. A loose thread is never strait. The more contact a thread has, the more resistent it is towards movement from external forces. When you turn a thread on a lathe (or mill it, or grind it) you will have a certain amount of lead error. Maybe slight (lets hope so), and maybe even more. If the reciver threads are cut with a tap or turned on one machine, and the barrel threads are cut on another, you compound the lead error. Also creating clearence. Of course a ground thread should have the least amount of error with a milled thread right behind it. Just the nature of the beast. So where does the lead error come into play here? Well with a shouder type seating the thread form starts making contact at one end or the other and takes itself up (clearence wise). It's almost impossible to make the thread form come into 100% contact as you tighten the thread for up. But when you pull the barrel forward .0025" to .0035" with the nut you are forcing it into full contact. We use this same system to setup ballscrews on precision machining equipment. You end up with a strait thread with less end play everytime. Or the rod bolts on a race hemi. You torque the bolts to a certain thread stretch.

now go ahead and tar & feather me<g>
gary
 
The one's with the number under the tang would not require any truing. If you have a lathe and need a bar that fits through the action to true up the face and the face of the barrel nut of an older action, I have the bar that I could loan you if you would pay postage both ways. You can index the action in the lathe and cut the lugs in the action then also true the lugs on the bolt.
I'd use the barrel nut. I would also set the barrel back to get to fresh rifling so if the rifleing was worn at the lead from shooting the old barrels. You would have to re thread, cut the cone and chamber the chamber deeper in the same caliber, then re cut the muzzle.
It should result in a good shooting rifle.
If interested in borrowing the tool to true the front of the action, PM me.

John K
 
dksac2 said:
The one's with the number under the tang would not require any truing.
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Mmmm... maybe so, maybe not. The actions are heat-treated after machining, so there is still some potential for warpage that might benefit from some truing. Might or might not depending on the individual action, etc. but its possible.
 
milanuk said:
Mmmm... maybe so, maybe not. The actions are heat-treated after machining, so there is still some potential for warpage that might benefit from some truing. Might or might not depending on the individual action, etc. but its possible.
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I have checked about a dozen over the last six or eight years, and all were well under .002" compound error (stacked up). Looking at their action I used to think they roughed machined the I.D. out with exception of the bolt lug seating suraces being finished. Then carborized the action. After that did a finish operation. Then heat treated the action. But now I think I was wrong. Looks like they are using a pretreat steel right from the start (kinda acts like 4350 or whatever in stainless steel). But on the otherhand they can go ahead and heat treat to about 35rc to 40rc, and hard turn the finish processes very accurately. My guess is that this is what they are doing these days
gary
 
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milanuk, good catch. I posted the heat treating effects issue on a different forum just lately, I had mentioned since the distance was short, the warpage would be low.
squeakie, Savage uses 4140 for their CM actions and heat treats after machining. In their 2010 catalogue they showed pictures of induction treating, I posted this here somewhere in one of my posts quite awhile ago. Proir to digitizing under the tang, which was only a couple of years ago, Savage deburred the action face by placing the action in a V block and sliding it into a large diameter grinding wheel by hand. I have seen this in a Craig Boddington Savage video tour.
 
Centershot rifle in Wisconsin...Jim will set you right. I can't tell you how easy and great he is to work with. I do understand the desire to be located near...but saying that I was in the middle east when I started to deal and finalized plans while there... you will be in great shape. My rifle from centershot...savage new barrel... caliber change is second to none in my opinion.
 
squeakie said:
I accept that. But hear me out before you tar & feather me. All threads have clearence, and it's virtually impossible to get a 100% contact. With a 1" or larger thread, I seriously doubt your seeing much more than 75% contact without grinding them. But a stretched thread is forced into contact, and is also strait. A loose thread is never strait. The more contact a thread has, the more resistent it is towards movement from external forces. When you turn a thread on a lathe (or mill it, or grind it) you will have a certain amount of lead error. Maybe slight (lets hope so), and maybe even more. If the reciver threads are cut with a tap or turned on one machine, and the barrel threads are cut on another, you compound the lead error. Also creating clearence. Of course a ground thread should have the least amount of error with a milled thread right behind it. Just the nature of the beast. So where does the lead error come into play here? Well with a shouder type seating the thread form starts making contact at one end or the other and takes itself up (clearence wise). It's almost impossible to make the thread form come into 100% contact as you tighten the thread for up. But when you pull the barrel forward .0025" to .0035" with the nut you are forcing it into full contact. We use this same system to setup ballscrews on precision machining equipment. You end up with a strait thread with less end play everytime. Or the rod bolts on a race hemi. You torque the bolts to a certain thread stretch.

now go ahead and tar & feather me<g>
gary
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Gary, if the threads had any function in "straightening" I'd agree with your analysis. But they don't. The single function of the threads is to load the joint, to keep the barrel against the face of the action. It's the barrel against the action that keeps 'er all in line.

That said, the Savage barrel nut is a great way to assemble mass produced parts for decent accuracy.

al
 
the heat treating/warping is true.

I have a Savage small action . put a Farrell base on it. using Burris rings, Elite 4200, 8 X 32 scope. with a Shilen 223, or McGowan Rem 6mm barrel, zero inserts in the rings. it shoots 22 inches to the right. yea!!!!! 22 inches to the right. have to use 20+, & 20- to get it close at 100 yds.

Savage actions do warp.
 
chestsprings, that much off is NOT the action, look at your recoil lug and scope or rings. To be off that bad, the barrel would need to be pointing in another direction than your action, a lot. I shortened a barrel that was bad at the end and it did that. Shot very well after I cut it back.
 
three barrels all shoot right ( none factory, 2 McGowan, 1 Shilen, 26 inches countor) ). the factory barrel that came with the rifle was a 22-250, did the same. SSS did a T&T on it, but my understanding, they don't mess with the barrel threads, or aligement of base/action screws. the recoil lug is a SSS, they installed. I'm very happy with SSS work, & in no way are they responsible for my situation.

my b-i-l has a machine shop, not a gunsmith. made a brass "plug" screwed it into the action. using a gauge of some sort, to find the center of the action , I'm not a machinist, & am lost as to what does what. we were trying to find out why it shot bad vertically.

he found from the front of the action, ( 6 inches from front to back on the top of the action), a difference of .046, yea!!!!!!!!!!!!.046 difference in the action front to back. front is higher than back. I ask Fred at SSS if I my b-i-l could "grind this off. he advised not to, as it's heat treated, so my b-i-l did the Farrell base. that did make a difference in the vertical shooting.

I bought this action on a VLP rifle about 2 yr. ago from a person, used. I guess I should say "smarter person than me, because I now have it.

I explained the above to SSS before they T&T it, hoping it would come back a little better. from what I understand, they don't mess with the exterior of the action. as I said, not there fault.

the rifle is very accurate. I made a cheat sheet to determine what inserts to use depending on the barrel.

my next trip to my b-i-l's ( out of state) I'm going to have him verify the base/action holes are exactually centered to the center of the barrel threads using the brass threaded plug he made.

if they are off, then 1 option is to get a base, redrill the holes off center, 2nd option is weld 1 action thread shut, redrill, 3rd option , maybe use a larger size screw ( diameter) for action screws.

I'm all "ears" if some one has a viable suggestion

If I hi-jacked this thread, I'm sorry. when it was mentioned action heating/warping, I thought I would add my experience.
 
PEI Rob said:
milanuk, good catch. I posted the heat treating effects issue on a different forum just lately, I had mentioned since the distance was short, the warpage would be low.
squeakie, Savage uses 4140 for their CM actions and heat treats after machining. In their 2010 catalogue they showed pictures of induction treating, I posted this here somewhere in one of my posts quite awhile ago. Proir to digitizing under the tang, which was only a couple of years ago, Savage deburred the action face by placing the action in a V block and sliding it into a large diameter grinding wheel by hand. I have seen this in a Craig Boddington Savage video tour.
Click to expand...

induction hardening done right will produce very little warpage as long as the quench oil is at the correct temp (probably in the .0005" to .0008" range). It's surprising to me that they bother with 4140, when they could simply use a certified lot of 4150 with virtually the same results and zero warpage. This and the fact that induction hardening seems to like a little for carbon and chrome. In the end the results would be similar, but with more work. But 4140 with a full hardening will only come it at about 43rc, where as 4150 is delivered 28-32rc, and you can request a certified lot at a higher Rockwell. Guess Savage needs to learn hard turning processes!
gary
 
alinwa said:
Gary, if the threads had any function in "straightening" I'd agree with your analysis. But they don't. The single function of the threads is to load the joint, to keep the barrel against the face of the action. It's the barrel against the action that keeps 'er all in line.

That said, the Savage barrel nut is a great way to assemble mass produced parts for decent accuracy.

al
Click to expand...

stretching threads in a common thing to do in the machine tool industry, and where it came from I don't know. Besides bearing preload it also produces a strait thread in a stressed position. A relaxed thread is never strait. Now we also are talking about a small thread length here when compaired to the pitch diameter, and I think everything you do can only help out the situation. And interesting test to try is to find a can of red lead and coat the male thread. Then give very light coating of high spot blue to the female thread. Screw the parts together till they are tight. Now do exactly the same thing with a nut and tighten it for about .003" stretch. One side of the male thread will have a very light coating of blue on it if the threads are cut right. When you check the blue that's transfered look for dark silver spots in the blue. These will be the high points. I ran these two systems a few years back thru a mechanical CAD program with a 65K psi thrust on it. Results were somewhat scarey! I then added in the torque from the bullet engaging the rifeling and learned even more
gary
 
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