Savage 12 LRP 6.5 Creedmoor reloading for benchrest accuracy.

To crimp or not to crimp...

I tested some handloads with and without the Lee crimp die. The rounds using a crimp shot a vertical spread for the 6.5 Creedmoor but improved my .222 Rem and 30-06 handloads.
 
PassTheAmmo said:
I tested some handloads with and without the Lee crimp die. The rounds using a crimp shot a vertical spread for the 6.5 Creedmoor but improved my .222 Rem and 30-06 handloads.
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The reason you got Vertical is that Load with the crimp is on the edge and spiking the pressure.
The 222 and 30-06 are on the lighter load side but the Crimp is creating higher pressure due to neck tension
 
MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic

I found the MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic on Amazon. Are the ones with digital/dial readouts not as accurate/reliable?
 
???

classcat said:
The reason you got Vertical is that Load with the crimp is on the edge and spiking the pressure.
The 222 and 30-06 are on the lighter load side but the Crimp is creating higher pressure due to neck tension
Click to expand...

I think I understand - maybe. No... I apologize but I don't understand your response.

Wouldn't the Lee Crimper cause uneven pressure in the unturned necks of the .222 and 30-06 just as it does for the 6.5. I understand that the 6.5 would have a higher psi/cup but in relative terms uneven neck tension in the .222 or 30.06 would/should still cause vertical stringing? Just trying to understand...
 
PassTheAmmo said:
I think I understand - maybe. No... I apologize but I don't understand your response.

Wouldn't the Lee Crimper cause uneven pressure in the unturned necks of the .222 and 30-06 just as it does for the 6.5. I understand that the 6.5 would have a higher psi/cup but in relative terms uneven neck tension in the .222 or 30.06 would/should still cause vertical stringing? Just trying to understand...
Click to expand...



it's the load. The 6.5's load is probably in a good load accuracy area (amount of Powder,seating depth) , by adding the crimp you are creating higher pressure and getting vertical. Shoot the same load 5 and 5 ,,, 5 with the crimp and 5 without. If the 5 without the crimp out shoot the 5 with the crimp, problem solved.

The .222 and 30.06 loads (powder) are probably on the lighter side, by adding the crimp you are creating higher pressure and velocity

As i said in an earlier post, once you start turning necks you will see an increase in accuarcy due to consistent neck sizing once a good load is found.


I found the MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic on Amazon. Are the ones with digital/dial readouts not as accurate/reliable?
Mitutoyo's are known for their quality. I would go for the digital, buy it once and be done with it.

Where do you live ?
 
If you don't already have them, get yourself some good wind flags. There's more to shooting small than just the gun and load. Wind reading often separates the winners and losers and it can do away with those so called "fliers". You can't really call a shot a flier if it went where it should, in a given condition.
 
Wind

mwezell said:
If you don't already have them, get yourself some good wind flags. There's more to shooting small than just the gun and load. Wind reading often separates the winners and losers and it can do away with those so called "fliers". You can't really call a shot a flier if it went where it should, in a given condition.
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I'm with you on that! Especially where I shoot.

I did put some streamers on the 100, 200, and 300 yard target boards and I also found someone at the club that will let me use his wind flags which he doesn't use that much anymore. I also try my best to shoot while the air is calm. I don't even attempt on windy days. I'm not trying, at least at this point, to work on my marksmanship. Just the load and trying to remove as many variables as I can. Once I get the load right I can work on my marksmanship.

The problem is that between the bench and the 300 yard mark there is a wide ravine that makes it impossible to place flags in that area. In other words I could place flags at approx. 75 yards and the next one would be at around 225 yards. No problem from the bench to the 100 & 200 yard marks. It's a weird set-up.
 
Ok

classcat said:
it's the load. The 6.5's load is probably in a good load accuracy area (amount of Powder,seating depth) , by adding the crimp you are creating higher pressure and getting vertical. Shoot the same load 5 and 5 ,,, 5 with the crimp and 5 without. If the 5 without the crimp out shoot the 5 with the crimp, problem solved.

The .222 and 30.06 loads (powder) are probably on the lighter side, by adding the crimp you are creating higher pressure and velocity Gotcha - and the crimp on those loads are working better than without.

As i said in an earlier post, once you start turning necks you will see an increase in accuarcy due to consistent neck sizing once a good load is found. I performed a little test using one of my mics and while not as accurate as the MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic, I did find a difference in wall thickness from one side of the neck to the other.


I found the MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic on Amazon. Are the ones with digital/dial readouts not as accurate/reliable?
Mitutoyo's are known for their quality. I would go for the digital, buy it once and be done with it. Will do.

Where do you live ?
Click to expand...
About 12 miles east of Pittsburgh. I shoot at Logan's Ferry Sportsman's Club in Plum Boro, PA.
 
Where do you live ?
TRY
Fairchance Rod and Gun Club
181 Guthrie rd
Smithfield PA
Jerry Van Sickle 724 569 2216

That is a Very Popular range for All Disciplines. Give them a call. They will help you out with Hands On knowledge
 
PassTheAmmo said:
The problem is that between the bench and the 300 yard mark there is a wide ravine that makes it impossible to place flags in that area. In other words I could place flags at approx. 75 yards and the next one would be at around 225 yards. No problem from the bench to the 100 & 200 yard marks. It's a weird set-up.
Click to expand...

I shoot there. 100 to the left, 200 in the middle and 300 to the right. It is a weird setup.
 

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Will try

I've heard of that club. It's about an hour and a half away from me. I think what I'll do is try and make it to one of the matches and see if I can make some friends. I'll take my son so we can share the driving. My health isn't good and if I drive there and spend maybe 5 hours there my son can then drive back.

I'm thinking that it's senseless to load any more until I get the neck turner, gauge, and set up the software.

So today the weather was pretty good, calm wind, so I decided to take a new rifle I just purchased, new scope and some cartridges and sight it in and break in the barrel. I'm not gonna tell you which rifle I bought only that it's in .222 Rem.

I mounted the scope and shot 15 rounds to break in the barrel doing the shoot, clean, shoot, clean, etc. and got the rifle on paper on the 50 yard range. Moved over to the 100 yard range. Shot 2, hit the windage 8 clicks to the left and shot the remaining 3 rounds. Took the target home and measured it. Ready for this??? The 1st 2 shots measured .240" and the last 3 shots measured .233" (of course using the Led-Sled). My son and I just looked at each other... here's why.

Rifle MSRP = $640
I paid $420 delivered!
Ammo = Fiocchi 50gr. V-Max

Here I am driving myself nuts with the 6.5 and a $400 rifle shoots a quarter inch out of the box, with factory ammo no less!!! I am very happy but at the same time so very sad...:D:(
 
Sometimes those factory guns shoot good, and sometimes not so much. My neighbor took his new Savage LRP in 6 Creedmoor to Logans Ferry yesterday and was printing 5 shot groups into less than 1/2" at 100 yards. He ran a couple different powders and got very similar results. He then shot a group at 300 that would have went into an inch, but his 5th shot opened it up to about 1 1/2". Still good shooting. His gun shoots good out of the box. You aren't getting the same results which is no surprise. Savage cranks those guns out fast and they will all shoot to different levels of accuracy.

There is a lot of experience on this forum. Guys will tell you a bunch of different things that may or may not solve your problem. If it doesn't help you it is not necessarily because you got bad advice. It's just the advice may not solve whatever accuracy problem your gun has. I'll add a couple things and this is just my opinion. I'm nowhere near an expert. I'm just a regular guy much like yourself.

As previously stated, wind flags are a good idea, even if you make them yourself to get started. I did that and it helped me tremendously. I still can't read the wind worth a darn, but it comes together often enough for me to see the huge benefit of having a set of flags. I made my first set for about $75. They work good enough. Certainly better than none. If you are shooting the 100 yard distance at the 300 range you'll get a tail wind a lot, but as you start to approach the valley your flag near the 100 yard line will sometimes be 90 degrees out of sync with the three flags you have placed closer to the firing line. This occurs a good bit in the summer as the warm air pushes the wind up the valley. When that happens, I try to wait until I get a more consistent condition. You might want to go to the designated 100 yard range for your initial load development. The wind there seems to be more well behaved.

I wouldn't invest in a neck turner as one of my first steps in trying to solve your accuracy issue. While it's not bad advice, I seriously doubt turning your necks is going to show up much on the paper with the factory gun you are shooting. Could it help? Sure, but all I'm saying is that it would not be near the top of the list of things to invest in to try and improve the accuracy of your Savage.

Another thing you have going on that does not help are the wooden benches at the club. This issue isn't unique to you. It hampers all shooters, but IMHO the benches certainly aren't helping your effort especially at the 300 yard range where guys are constantly pulling and pushing those benches around making the joints more loose as time goes by. The concrete block benches aren't much better because they aren't lined up with any particular target distance, so shooting from that position does not promote good shooting form. Try to shoot off the most stable bench you can find would be my advice. Next time I'm there I am going to take my ratchet and sockets with me to try and tighten those lag bolts some. It can't hurt.

IMO, the lead sled probably isn't helping your effort either. Just my opinion again, but a more traditional front and rear bag set up would be beneficial. If you don't have have one, I'd be happy to meet you there and you can try my rest and bag setup.

Did you check to see if the action screws are tight?

If the gun still doesn't shoot after messing around with seating depth, powder charge, etc, I'd have the gun looked over by a good smith. I've had more than one crappy shooting factory gun saved by a simple bedding job. It may not solve your issue, but it won't make the gun shoot worse. Since your gun has an aluminum bedding block, the smith will probably mill off some of the aluminum, then bed the action in a more traditional way. In theory those aluminum bedding blocks should work great. In practice, sometimes they don't. Savage makes the action. Somebody else makes the stock with the bedding block. Tolerances being tolerances, there is a good chance your action isn't mated as good as it could be.

That's all I got. I'd start off with simple solutions that don't cost much money before throwing a bunch of cash at the gun, that may still not solve the accuracy issue. Sometimes they just don't shoot from the factory.

Sorry for the long post.
 
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Hi Jimmy

If it's ok with you I'll PM you with my contact info. I've been shooting with Dennis (cuts the grass) and maybe we and the other Model 12 LRP guy can meet or share notes.

Now the gun can shoot. I had it shipped to a gunsmith when I first purchased it who scoped it for me when he received it called me and said I had to take a look. The bore was awful, chatter marks it's entire length and a lot of copper fouling. I called Savage and sent it back and they made and installed another barrel and trued the action. When I got it back a couple of weeks later it was glass smooth.

Batch #2 of my handloads printed a 3 shot group at 300 yards of under an inch (my son). Very calm day. Batch #3, that was the same as batch #2, printed a 300 yard group that measured 1/2 inch vertically and 2" left to right because of the wind that day (I just used the same hold point for all 5 shots cause I couldn't figure out the wind). Both batches without the crimp.

My problem is with consistency and the only thing I can think of is the neck tension and I'm thinking that the crimp may be causing a lot of my issues with subsequent vertical stringing. So I'm gonna ditch the crimper and see what happens on more of my loads. The 4th and 5th batch using the crimper - a lot of vertical stringing. My scope's center dot fits nicely within a 1/2" round pastie at 300 yards as a hold point.

Long post but good info and advise. Appreciate it.

Checked the action screws, base, rings, scope - all OK.

I would like to see your set-up but I've tried my version of a front rest and rear support with little success. I have been working on my shooting skills with my .22lr. at the 100 yard range.

Yeah - that valley between the bench and 300 yard line is impossible to read unless you can get a flag next to it at about the 200 yard line and even then it's not much help. Having streamers pinned to the 3 stands don't help all that much.

I'm just hoping for a few more decent days before the long blackness falls (that's what I call winter - just hate it...).
 
Thanks

I saved that page. Frankford makes some good stuff. I have some of their products.

What about this? Has a dial. In use, would something with a dial or digital readout be faster?
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/14657

What to do? I have a $1,000 rifle that shoots better than it should (if I can get the consistency), $1,500 scope, and $$$ in other stuff supporting that setup. Should I spend big $$$ on a rig like this or would something less expensive serve me well. I am a proponent of spending big and be done with it or in my case (terminally ill, will never compete, but just want to milk as much accuracy/consistency out of what I have), do I need the best there is? I just couldn't justify, at this point, spending $6000+ on a rig. Maybe on this...
https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/f-type/coupe-models/f-type-svr.html ;)

Is this any good? Or would I be wasting my money.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/28195
Midway has it on sale.

I used one of my calipers (I know it's not the best tool) to test a few cases, and I was surprise at the difference in wall thickness of all the cases I tested.

Now my question is would a .002" difference in thickness from one side of the case mouth to the other create a meaningful difference in accuracy. My guess is yes cause everyone turns their necks, therefor it must, yes? I guess I'm just a little bit confused on how that impacts the release and subsequent accuracy of the round. The powder ignites, and the resulting pressure would seem great enough to mitigate the uneven force placed on the bullet by the neck?

Or is it more a problem of bullet alignment in the neck??? Or Both???
 
Hornady Neck Turning Tool

I have the Hornady neck turning tool and it works well. I've used it for .223 and .308 so far but 6.5 Creedmoor will soon follow.

My only criticism is the coil spring on the drive end. It was cut square on the end and will gouge the frame raceway as it turns. I used a fine grinding wheel to put a taper on the spring's end and it now rides in the raceway without gouging. A dab of grease also helps.

There are many case tools like the Redding tool you asked about. I have the RCBS Case Master. I rarely use it as it's finicky.

Neck thickness should be consistent all the way around and the same for all cases. Then it's easy to select a neck bushing that gives a consistent .002" or .003" tension. I always use a bushing that is .001" tighter than the tension I want because brass will "spring back" about .001". Thus if I want .002" tension, I use a bushing that sizes the neck .003".
 
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