Resuolts for 3/15/09 Temecula BR match

LD, I will gladly shoot a 25 shot group at 50 yards as soon as I build my tunnel and bolt my gun to a rest like the one you use to test with.Apples to Apples.
Now had someone said the Hunter would only shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards in a tunnel when the gun was ready to release to the public we would not be having this discussion.
Your opinion is yours and your welcome to it but I'm the one who wrote the check only to receive a detailed explanation of why I should accept what the gun can not do and should be satisfied with a quarter size group or worse at 50 yards..I don't think so.
I plan on keeping the gun and working on it over time to try and squeeze the accuracy that I would like to see out of it. I have managed to fix the other issues that I found troubling and the accuracy has come a long way after testing several different barrels and pellets.
As to why I have kept the gun , well , Its a combination of hope and despair I can see the potential in the gun and I truly appreciate the design and I know in time I will be able to get it to shoot like it should.
The bottom line is I did not get what I thought I was paying for , the accuracy was only one of the several issues with the gun that needed to be corrected.
The definition of accuracy is something you and I do not agree on and thats fine. I do not think a gun shot in a tunnel under controlled conditions that produced a target like that should have been sent to a customer knowing the gun was going to be shot outside in real world conditions no matter how you color it.
One or both of you saw that target and should have red flagged the gun and solved the problem.I can understand quality control problems in a production facility with dozens of employees and where a complex product is being produced but not in a one or two man shop that have eyes on every step in the assembly and testing phase of product.
I'm lucky enough to be able to purchase a lathe and mill and the assorted tooling needed to tinker with projects like this but I suspect some folks are not and in my mind that makes it all that more important to share my experience with others especially if like me they do not understand the definition of accuracy.
Take care LD.

Doug









ldurham said:
Is fine for hunting, and in fact the level of accuracy is one that many normal hunting rimfires cannot deliver with standard hunting ammo. I suspect you, as well as MOST shooters are unaware how much a 25 shot group grows compared to the usual fiive shot groups we often fire, but I find the the area of such a group is often five or six times greater.

If you think all hunting airguns should be accurate enough to kill at any distance you want, you are missing a valuable point to any hunting ... which is, you MUST hunt within the limits of the gun and yourself combined. for most hunter/airgun combo's, I would say around 30-40yds is about the limit for very small game. I can hunt with a SLINGSHOT, but keep ranges under six yards or so.


Anyhow,

For comparison's sake, there are NO spring powered airguns I've ever fired from 50yds that can regularly duplicate the group you show, and very few .22 cal precharged guns. Yes, I know you may have seen many smaller groups, but I challenge you to try to duplicate them with a full 25 shots!

That said, my observation is that most .22 cal airgun barrels I have tested will not shoot accurately enough for FT competition, which was the use for which the USFT was designed. Its for this reason there are so very few .22 cal FT rifles being used of ANY make for FT matches. the hunter version, when fitted with a .177 barrel, will do nearly as well, but in my opinion, the .22 cal is ok for rabbits or vermin, but not so good for competition.

My experience with these particular guns may differ from Tim's, or your discussion leaves a little out, since its been my own experience that the barrel is essentially soley responsible for MOST of the accuracy assuming the rest of the gun is working normally.

The criteria I use personally for FT guns is sub-moa ctc groups at 51yds in my tunnel. I used to shoot twelve five shot groups, throw out the best and worst, then average the rest. Then I found that one 25 shot group that could be covered by a nickel was about the same.

Your group looks the size of a quarter, which is around a half pellet's width bigger than a nickel. This is typical for a very good shooting .22 cal air rifle at 51yds when you shoot that many shots into the same spot.

So Doug,

Just for the gain in knowledge it would surely give the entire readership, I challenge you to honestly and fairly shoot a full 25 shot group from 50 yards with the most accurate .22 cal airgun you own or can borrow and post the picture alongside a quarter, so we can all see, ok?.

Not to say I've NEVER seen one do better, but I have only seen perhaps two out of fifty that might do slightly better, and I want to see how your other .22 cal guns do.
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Doug, my experience has not shown these guns to be more accurate when bolted down

In fact, I feel they are generally a little LESS accurate when bolted to the bench. I find I can fire better groups when aiming each shot from a normal front rest and rear bag setup.

Tim no longer bolts his test guns to the bench, as I convinced him to switch over to aimed shooting as well around a year ago.

BTW, though Tim and I are really good friends, we are not business partners in any way. I helped him technically in replicating some of my airgun related ideas, and he comes over and uses my underground range anytime he wants, but I don't share a part of his airgun business.
 
I'm not perfect

I have offerred to sort out your problem on a public forum and you have chosen to ignor the offer and carry on with your complaints.
I've built 142 rifles. Not all of them are tack drivers but I'm doing my best. I've learned a lot over the course of this exercise and the product has continually improved. When I get the opportunity to redo early examples I don't hesitate to update the gun to current specs and put what I think are the best options on it to improve it.
I've learned a few tricks that could allow the gun you own to be as good as any others I've done but if you are not willing to give me a chance then I think I'm unable to help you due to your reluctance.
I hope you get it sorted out. Good Luck.
 
Thanks for the offer Tim , I'm pretty sure I'll get it sorted.

Doug


Tim McMurray said:
I have offerred to sort out your problem on a public forum and you have chosen to ignor the offer and carry on with your complaints.
I've built 142 rifles. Not all of them are tack drivers but I'm doing my best. I've learned a lot over the course of this exercise and the product has continually improved. When I get the opportunity to redo early examples I don't hesitate to update the gun to current specs and put what I think are the best options on it to improve it.
I've learned a few tricks that could allow the gun you own to be as good as any others I've done but if you are not willing to give me a chance then I think I'm unable to help you due to your reluctance.
I hope you get it sorted out. Good Luck.
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USFT gun@temacula

this looks like it's heating up some,is this a benchrest gun or what?are this USFT gun still being made?it looks like a lot of people that shoot air gun benchrest haven't heard of them?or did i miss something? and does this gun shoot good or not?that's the 64$ question for 2300 bucks.is there any more thoughts on this? happy shooting !! deleterman.
 
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