Record Holding Equipment

[AZUARO]

Dear Members:

I was reviewing equipment updates for BR record holding guns and came across the list of Record Holding Equipment in the USA as presented by Jerry Stiller on another forum (Please see picture below)...It is very good to see that some myths about actions and ignition location have been broken and that the group size results are very promising, tight and hold the record for the ELEY USA testing Center at KSS...Nevertheless this 13.4 mm falls just 1 mm below the 12.4 mm for 40 Shots at 50 m established at the Eley test range in Fellback (Stuttgart), Germany.
Note: I am not sure whether the testing at KSS uses clamps and holds the entire rifle or just the barreled action, in Germany the testing is done using clamping fixtures holding the complete gun as it will be fired during competition.

The previous record in Germany of 13.3 mm set in 2007 with I believe a Feinwerkbau 2700, was broken with a 13.2 mm (40 shot consolidated group combining four 10 shot groups using ELEY's software)...Then the same gun (Bleiker) broke its own record with a new record of 12.4 mm...

This marvelous gun is a Bleiker ISSF Rifle that uses a Lilja barrel and is owned by Michael Baumann, it shot ELEY lots for both records as follows:
Record 1. 13.2 mm 40 shot group using Eley lot 1014–01002
Record 2. 12.4 mm 40 shot group using Eley lot 1014–06005
Note: Both of these ELEY lots are 2014 production

It is to note that neither of the 13.4 mm USA record nor the 13.2 & 12.4 mm German records used PAS actions, in the USA a 2500 X action (J Stiller) & Shilen Octagon barrel was used and a Bleiker lilja barreled rifle in Germany...Yes, both of these outstanding barrels are USA made !

No doubt that our USA barrel makers are the cream of the crop worldwide...Nothing but CONGRATULATIONS to Ed Shilen and Dan Lilja for their EXCELLENCE in barrel making !

While no USA tested BR gun has yet broken the German record given the fact that ELEY's testing center at KSS is pretty new and that not so many guns have been tested, a 1 mm difference is no easy gap to close even assuming that there are other BR guns that can match or even break the European's records...So until this happens we can not state that our BR guns are the most accurate .22 RF guns in the world...
Yes, I know that many people will disagree with this statement and this is understandable, but keep in mind that speculation has never established any records and a record per se is not valid or set until the previous one has been broken.

Regards for all members,

AZUARO



View attachment 15202

 

[Kent Owens]

Give the US time. Not a real comparison. I'd guess the Europeans have tested 1000's of barreled action/rifles while the US has tested 100's thus far along.

Of course none of that testing means a tinkers damn, if I doesn't carry on to the range and win championships.

 

[The Jet]

Look I may be completely wrong here.

Do you think that there isn't enough credit given to the shooter in benchrest shooting in general? i.e. "Shooters win championships" at that high level, they all have great guns
I have only been in this game for a year now but I do realise that without a accurate rifle/ammo combo no matter how good the shooter is, he can't win.
However the same guys seem to always rise to the top, there skill must have a lot to do with this fact.
But with tunnel testing, doesn't that take the human factor out of the equation?
A record is just a number that a piece of steel strapped to a bench can produce.
Be it wonderfully engineered and grafted steel.
What do you guys reckon?
kind regards Ben

 

[tim]

Exactly how many conclusions can be drawn from a single gun in Germany????

 

[Fatback]

About the same as can be drawn from the test in Texas or any other tunnel they shoot good in a tunnel and clamped in a vice

 

[center22]

"Note: I am not sure whether the testing at KSS uses clamps and holds the entire rifle or just the barreled action, in Germany the testing is done using clamping fixtures holding the complete gun as it will be fired during competition."

Last year at St. Louis, I asked Dan Killough if it was possible for a friend to have his entire BR rifle, (clamped in the stock) ammo tested at the Eley Tenex tunnel. His answer was NO. John

 

[Boyd Allen]

This really is a question. In my very small rimfire experience, it seems to me that rifles are pretty critical in their requirements as to how they are supported and held, and for that reason any test fixture that someone devises could quite possibly not give the best results for any given rifle. Have any of you seen anything that supports the idea that clamping a rifle or barreled action in a test fixture may not give comparable results to its being shot normally?

 

[Fred J]

Complete Rifle

You can test your rifle as a complete unit or Barreled action (clamped), at the Lapua Test Facility in AZ. All you are really looking for, is the best ammo for your barrel anyway.

 

[MaxxPower]

Have any of you seen anything that supports the idea that clamping a rifle or barreled action in a test fixture may not give comparable results to its being shot normally?

I have seen exactly that phenomenon. I tested my barreled action in the "clamp" with excellent results but shooting that Tenex in real life yielded only mediocre practice ammo. Nowhere near the results I had in the tunnel.

I've spoken with several other shooters with the same experience.

 

[AZUARO]

You can test your rifle as a complete unit or Barreled action (clamped), at the Lapua Test Facility in AZ. All you are really looking for, is the best ammo for your barrel anyway.

Yes, this is the bottom line of testing and it is good that this facility in AZ offers both options...I unfortunately have never tried Lapua in my BR guns but I have heard very good comments recently and I will like to try is soon when we migrate south for the winter.

I only have 2 BR guns with an extra barrel on one of them, I tested them with barreled actions and then compared the results with the stock on for making sure that there are no bedding/torquing issues...Once I found the stocks were properly bedded/torqued for these guns, I prefer to do the testing with the stock on...But if you ask me why, I wouldn't have a specific valid answer because it shouldn't be any difference assuming everything is done right as it is and I guess that it may be just a confidence issue (in my case)...But by the same token it is also true that some other shooters have experienced significant variances with and without the stock as mentioned in this thread...All I can say is that maybe I have been lucky and the ammo I have tested with and without stock has given me a much larger sweet Spot (Less sensitive-more forgiving) ?

Out of the thread...I have a few very old (15-18 yrs) bricks of Federal UM1 and UM2...After I tested my 10.5 Lb. gun with ELEY MATCH and found a pretty good lot (Have shot several 250's with 19-22 X's indoors), I shot the Federal ammo for comparison (1 full target with each Federal cartridge)....All I have to say is that I wish Federal was still producing Match ammo!...And NO, there were no inconsistency issues with the ammo being that old...

Regards,

azuaro

 

[tim]

About the same as can be drawn from the test in Texas or any other tunnel they shoot good in a tunnel and clamped in a vice

You'd do well to find out how that's been working from those sessions to ammo/match results.

 

[tim]

This really is a question. In my very small rimfire experience, it seems to me that rifles are pretty critical in their requirements as to how they are supported and held, and for that reason any test fixture that someone devises could quite possibly not give the best results for any given rifle. Have any of you seen anything that supports the idea that clamping a rifle or barreled action in a test fixture may not give comparable results to its being shot normally?

There have been results, to be sure, that have not translated from the test range back to the gun re bedded in its stock shooting a match. Far more results, however, assisting owners selecting good ammo/barrel combos that have produced solid results, it seems.
It might not be an ideal solution but the success rate is undeniable.

 

[Doug]

Just A Thought:

After reading this thread and looking at some of the results from the Eley Test facility!
I would rather have my rifle tested clamped with out the Stock!
Why you ask?
If my rifle does not measure up to their results when I get it back shooting the same ammo then I have a stock or equipment problem!!
OR A SHOOTER Problem God Forbid!!
Make Sense??

(Yep their are Days when I can't hit the Broad Side of a Barn - It's a Shooter Problem which I have learned to recognize!)

 

[Roger T]

How does Eley divy-up their lots ? geographically(splitting between importers) or do they just send this group of lots here others there etc.?

 

[Pete Wass]

What matters is

how records are obtained on ranges, not in test facilities, IMHO. From my experience, WHERE the tests take place matters a bunch. I.E., ammo that shoots well @ say 1200 FAS may not and probably will not perform @ Sea Level without twisting the tuner a bunch. I prefer to test indoors @ the altitude I will use the ammo @. I can then take it to the range and verify what I have found. The best ammo I have had to date was discovered in the Rock River Barn in December a few years back. Was sorry to see it go and I still have a box or two to verify things with.

Pete

 

[AZUARO]

how records are obtained on ranges, not in test facilities, IMHO.

Yes Pete, I see it the same way you do and if I may add something to complement your perspective it would be that at the range the record is for the shooter and at the facilities the record is for the equipment (gun)...

What you mention about ammo behaving differently indoors-outdoors, at high elevations vs. Sea level, etc. is the BIBLE...Man!, I only wish there were ways of determining how these lots of ammo
would perform changing the variables...While external ballistics for different conditions are more predictable, I believe there is no way of predicting ACCURACY or at least I haven't found how to do it.

Best regards,

azuaro

 

[Peter Armstrong]

After reading this thread and looking at some of the results from the Eley Test facility!
I would rather have my rifle tested clamped with out the Stock!
Why you ask?
If my rifle does not measure up to their results when I get it back shooting the same ammo then I have a stock or equipment problem!!
OR A SHOOTER Problem God Forbid!!
Make Sense??

(Yep their are Days when I can't hit the Broad Side of a Barn - It's a Shooter Problem which I have learned to recognize!)

Doug

The ranges in Europe are all the same and use a big vice, you put your action in a cradle and the cradle goes into the vice. The problem in Europe is they don't have cradles for BR actions. What I did was make a T shaped bracket with 2 pieces of 1x4x10" aluminium and bolted that to the bottom of the stock and dropped that into the vice at the test ranges.

The problem with cradles it's not going to suit all guns, it's a bit like putting you barrelled action into someone else's stock and hoping it works. In Dan's tunnel he has a very good return to battery cradle setup for BR actions and I've had 3 barrels through there and it works good. I think its best to pay them to tune your barrel before they test ammo.

For me I find getting ammo at factory test ranges is cost effective and I'm not chasing my tail looking for lots of ammo and I can just worry about shooting straight part.

Peter