Reality-- and what people "claim"

M

Montana Pete

Guest
I guess I'm a skeptical cuss. A little careful to believe some of the smoke that gets blown on these forums.

Recently I read some claims. One shooter blatted very confidently that his rifle shot consistently half-minute groups, or even less. Day in day out-- "my rifle is better than yours."

I just got back from an afternoon on the range. There was a ragged, gusty wind. The wind varied, second by second, from near calm to gusts close to 20 mph. I was firing at 200 yds with a 22-250.

My gun will shoot 1/2 minute groups under ideal conditions. It will not shoot those groups at 200 yds when there is unsteady air, such as gusty wind. Today I got a few sub- 1 minute groups and -- under the circumstances -- was not disappointed or upset.

Now, how many times do you guys have "ideal" conditions. Our range gets a lot of gusty conditions because the range is down in a defile between some high bluffs, and the topography can amplify even a light breeze.

Maybe you guys think I am "sour grapes," but I'm a bit leery of these bland assertions. The idea that "hey, I can go out and shoot half-minute groups all day."

Well, on some days you can and on some days you can't.

Now with a true benchrest rifle a lot is possible, but this thread is "factory/hybrid." Call that "varminters" if you want.

Anyway, I think it is not that rare than some baloney gets handed around on this forum.

Some of this sounds so easy -- until you actually drag your a__ out there to the range and try to DO it.

What do you folks think?
 
Most of the people making these claims don't even own windflags. One of the old timers at my club once said that " Anybody not using windflags is just plinking".
 
Pete,

Last weekend was the IBS Score Nationals. I got third place at 100 yards and I kept all my shots inside .5 ". At 200 yards I got 10th place, and I was proud of it. However, I did not keep them within 1 inch due to the wind. Only three shooters kept the shots under 1" at 200 yards, on that windy day. Please keep in mind that the rifles used at the Nationals are of the best of everything.

Anyone that claims they can shoot a 1/4" group, all day long, with their factory gun, is reaching.

Adrian
 
Pete

There's a big difference between what your rifle is capable of and what you're capable of. I have more than one live varmint rifle that is capable of consistent .5 MOA groups out to its max range. Am I capable? Yes, on some days.

OTOH, all of my Benchrest rifles are capable of sub .5 MOA groups all the way out to 1000 yards. Me? Not!

If your friend says that his rifle is capable, you might believe him. If he says that HE can do it, offer to have him shoot some groups for money.
Ray
 
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Anything under .5 moa with a factory rifle is never easy.
Most assuredly it can be done but day in day out is impossible.

I consider myself somewhat lucky. My home range is a 200 yard 8 foot swath cut through the dense New England jungle. Even when the foliage is down the wind is kept at bay much more than most ranges. I use no wind flags and have shot some .25 moa groups and less on some pretty windy days.
I've also shot a whole lot more stinkers when it was dead calm. Lots more.

The downside to having no wind is eternal darkness and not learning to use flags or the full effect wind can have. Darkness can be combatted by top quality optics. Wind needs to be learned.

When I get a chance to use a 300 yard range where the wind is always known to be blowing I'm pretty dumbfounded by the horizontal in my groups.

This is not even considering the fact that keeping a factory barrel with 100 or more pieces of brass tuned to that potential is almost a full time job.
 
Montana Pete said:
I guess I'm a skeptical cuss. A little careful to believe some of the smoke that gets blown on these forums.

Recently I read some claims. One shooter blatted very confidently that his rifle shot consistently half-minute groups, or even less. Day in day out-- "my rifle is better than yours."

I just got back from an afternoon on the range. There was a ragged, gusty wind. The wind varied, second by second, from near calm to gusts close to 20 mph. I was firing at 200 yds with a 22-250.

My gun will shoot 1/2 minute groups under ideal conditions. It will not shoot those groups at 200 yds when there is unsteady air, such as gusty wind. Today I got a few sub- 1 minute groups and -- under the circumstances -- was not disappointed or upset.

Now, how many times do you guys have "ideal" conditions. Our range gets a lot of gusty conditions because the range is down in a defile between some high bluffs, and the topography can amplify even a light breeze.

Maybe you guys think I am "sour grapes," but I'm a bit leery of these bland assertions. The idea that "hey, I can go out and shoot half-minute groups all day."

Well, on some days you can and on some days you can't.

Now with a true benchrest rifle a lot is possible, but this thread is "factory/hybrid." Call that "varminters" if you want.

Anyway, I think it is not that rare than some baloney gets handed around on this forum.

Some of this sounds so easy -- until you actually drag your a__ out there to the range and try to DO it.

What do you folks think?
Click to expand...

Heck Pete, I'm probably even more skeptical than you......I don't even believe that your 22-250 is really capable of 1/2moa.

seriously.

If you'll show me pix of 5 consecutive 5-shot groups that average (agg) one/half inch I'll even take your word for it and I'll mail you a $25.00 gift card for Sinclairs International or Brownell's........ I'm publicly making this offer to you and I have no affiliation with Sinclair nor Brownell's. It's 25 bucks out of my pocket JUST TO MAKE YOUR POINT :):):) no tricks, it's worth it to me just to actually see someone actually live up to a claim. I live on a range, I hear this stuff more than the average bear.


Take me up??


al



Here's a pic thru the scope of a recent load workup..... by the end the gun was down to under 1/2", for real. This was NOT a factory rifle though. I've got several 22-250's including a reworked 788, a Cooper and some Rem's.....And of the 30-40 I've worked on and shot in the past exactly ONE would do under 1/2moa.......A Savage.

Do you have one that good?? :)

Those are 6MM bullet holes from a 6X47L, very similar to a 22-250. Tuning with seating depth.
 

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Hello all,

I am not much help in this forum, but I love all the information. You have to use your own judgement with alot of it and see if it really fits in reality. I am learning more everytime I go out to the range. At this time I shoot at a public range in PA that has a max distance of 300yds. One thing I learned right off the bat is: what you shoot at 100yds does not in any way calculate into longer distances. As to say for argument's sake, 1" 5 shots at 100yds does not mean 3" at 300yds. I have quit testing loads at 100yds and start at a min of 200yds. Some serious "voodoo" happens after that 100 yd mark :). I work with some people that I show groups that are impressive with my lack of experience and "low" dollar weaponry considering nothing I own is custom yet. In my own mind I think technique is more important than equipment when starting. I mean I can shoot under ideal conditions with my CZ452 at 50yds 5 shots in .375". Other days with slight wind I may as well throw the darn rifle at the target. But I am starting to learn the wind slowly but surely. Rimfire is great practice for me, it seems things are magnified greatly compared to centerfire. I am also the only person at the range that I have seen that also shoots a 22lr at 100yds.

Sorry for the long rant, its late and I just got home from work.

Thank you again for the information.

Mike
 
There are a lot of "keyboard" groups listed on about any forum you want to read on.
I occasionally shoot a good or even excellent group but almost never repeat it and definately don't do it consistently group after group.
If all these factory rifles shot in the .2's consistently like the owners brag, wouldn't we see at least one factory rifle winning a benchrest match occasionally?
Have fun, shoot as good as you can, and as often as you can.
Try not to compare your own groups to what is being said on the forums, match results can be trusted, a witness or two tends to increase the size of target groups and decrease the distance to the game that was shot.
By your own experience you will recognize the "keyboard" group shooters.
 
kansasvet said:
There are a lot of "keyboard" groups listed on about any forum you want to read on.
I occasionally shoot a good or even excellent group but almost never repeat it and definately don't do it consistently group after group.
If all these factory rifles shot in the .2's consistently like the owners brag, wouldn't we see at least one factory rifle winning a benchrest match occasionally?
Have fun, shoot as good as you can, and as often as you can.
Try not to compare your own groups to what is being said on the forums, match results can be trusted, a witness or two tends to increase the size of target groups and decrease the distance to the game that was shot.
By your own experience you will recognize the "keyboard" group shooters.
Click to expand...


Kansas, you said it a little better (or more politely? :) ) than I did.......the key is in the REPEATABILITY.

If I had a dollar for every.......anyways, these keyboard shooters DO BELIEVE that because their rifle shot a 1/4" group a time or two that "It's a quarter-inch rifle, if I could do my part"........Most folks really do think it's THEM!


I'm calling BS!

THE VERY FIRST TIME you shoot an accurate rifle you WILL shoot awesome groups! Believe me, we ALL have gone through or are going through the accurizing the factory rifle phase. We ALL believe or have at one time believed that it's our fault.....

BS!!!


A truly accurate and repeatable rifle is a joy, a balm to the soul. With an accurate rifle we can SEE the wind. and groups are flat lines.


5 groups, 5-shots each, .5moa with ALL FLIERS counted........ do this 5 times and you can say "I've got a half-inch rifle".


Today I was shooting a brand new Rem700 300WSM. Three times it put 2 bullets in the same ragged hole............ but the GROUPS were over an inch....It'd tease me.


:)


al
 
See the wind in the group

A truly accurate and repeatable rifle is a joy, a balm to the soul. With an accurate rifle we can SEE the wind. and groups are flat lines.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Yesssssssssssssssssssss Alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!

To THE point and DEAD true!

cale
 
alinwa

I have to toatally agree with you, I have posted 2 groups that were shot for a diffrent reason, the one on the left is shot at 12X, the one on the right at 6X with the same rifle to disprove a theory on one of the other threads that more scope will improve groups. They were both shot with a Rem 700 BDL sporter in 25.06, 117 gr sierras, RE22, and CCI primer. Do I think this is a 1/4 or 1/2 inch rifle? No, It will consistently be an inch or better for 5, 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Is it capable of better, Dont know. Is it good for a factory sporter weight hunting rifle? You bet. But I have learned to take this forum and some of the claims with a handful of salt. If more people would post what they say are thier Agg groups, maybe we wouldnt have to sit back and go BS. So back to the original question, No they arent all 1/4 or 1/2 inch rifles. Out of the 16 I own only 1 is a true 1/2 rifle. So read the forums, and keep the salt shaker handy. LOL
 

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Alinwa--

I did not say my rifle was capable of five or six consecutive .5 moa groups. Where did you get that from? Just my own aiming error would make that difficult. I believe what I actually said was, under ideal conditions my rifle is capable of 1/2 inch groups at 100 yd.

I will attach a photo if I can -- there, I think I succeeded.

This group is 3/8" at 100 yd. I could also send photos of three or four more groups not quite this good, but all slightly under 1/2".

My rifle is a Savage Model 12 in the least expensive incarnation thereof--

Frankly, for a production rifle, I think that is some shooting.

I have only owned the rifle about 6 weeks and have only fired about 175 rds through it.
 

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Montana Pete said:
Alinwa--

I did not say my rifle was capable of five or six consecutive .5 moa groups. Where did you get that from? Just my own aiming error would make that difficult. I believe what I actually said was, under ideal conditions my rifle is capable of 1/2 inch groups at 100 yd.

I will attach a photo if I can -- there, I think I succeeded.

This group is 3/8" at 100 yd. I could also send photos of three or four more groups not quite this good, but all slightly under 1/2".

My rifle is a Savage Model 12 in the least expensive incarnation thereof--

Frankly, for a production rifle, I think that is some shooting.

I have only owned the rifle about 6 weeks and have only fired about 175 rds through it.
Click to expand...



Montana Pete,

IS that a 5-shot group?

BTW, that IS a wicked nice looking group :) but will the gun "do it" on call, over and over??? Or is it just a fluke?


And why alla' sudden all defensive?? :( I'm AGREEING WITH YOU man!

???


al
 
To Pete, alinwa, and other interested parties.

First of all anyone who shoots regulary on public ranges and shoots well has my respect as I have rarely seen one without howling wind. I have my own 200yd range on top of a flat ridge with tall trees around and wind is rarely a problem as I generally shoot at dusk. That way I get away from the mirage as well, I have wind flags but generally things are so quiet I hardly need them. I have three very reliable production hunting rifles that will put 3 shots under 1/2" at 100yds with no foulers or warmers. As to wether they do it every time I would say probably not but they do it often enough for me not to have to go investigating. To my way of thinking if we miss a crow or a deer with first three shots it will have cleared out any way, even kangaroos are not that stupid except in wet weather. Having said all that what I mean when I say my Swift shot a 3 shot sub .3" is just that, wether it will do it again is in the lap of the gods. Leave the aggs to the fussy perfectionists, as long as your rifle does what it does;) often enough for you to be happy thats no BS. thats common sense. Reguards Murphy.
 
I saw this thread and read it but don't spend much time in the factory forum and didn't want to post but was tempted. Just now, I remembered an episode I went through some years back that made me laugh pretty hard and wanted to share it here.

First, I'd like to say that before remembering this, I was tempted to post that people should sometimes be careful about throwing the bsflag cause some of the people who post here may be competitors who have some pretty serious factory iron for hunting. I've seen some examples of this that would make 99.9% throw the flag for sure.

Anyhow, My brother and I compete at 1K BR. While sitting at the local bar one day after a match, a friend is there and starts telling us about his 270 lever action remmy that will shoot a 5 shot group in one hole (100 yards). We of course are not interested in embarrassing this friend so we politely say, listen Johnny, that's tough to do. He admits that it's not like a guaranteed deal, but, he's willing to bet that in 5 tries of 5 shots, this thing will do it. Well, with no interest in money, we bet beers, grab the 6 packs and off to my house we go to do some shooting. John goes and get's his gun / ammo.

He arrives and begins shooting. Well, as we'd expect, groups are not just somewhat ugly, I mean, they're pretty convincing that this bet is a cinch even if we're talking about any one of five, two shot groups. All over does not describe it.

So, after 2 or 3 horribly failed attempts, I say to him, when was the last time you cleaned this thing. Well, last hunting season, bla bla bla. I think he may have meant hunting season in 1950.

Wanting to see him do a little better, I get out my cleaning stuff and start going to town. Low and behold, this barrel is missing a piece of rifling partway down the barrel and it's obvious as the day is long. Well, we found this guns problem for sure. What used to shoot reasonable I'm sure, is not turned into a throwaway gun.

After cleaning, John want's to give this one more try with the gun clean (like it's going to make a difference) and I tell him, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to shoot this barrel anymore. Well, if it is or not, we're sending another 5 shot group... yada yada yada...

Doesn't the thing shoot a 5 shot group in the 2's! Laugh? Omg. We were roaring! This is impossible, and there's Ole Johnny tellin us, YEA! See, it can do it! Lol

Yea, we went back to the bar and bought a few beers, they were well worth the stories to tell. After cleaning that gun, I'da bet the house it couldn't do that in 100 groups. There's times, truth is stranger than fiction.
 
alinwa said:
Heck Pete, I'm probably even more skeptical than you......I don't even believe that your 22-250 is really capable of 1/2moa.

seriously.
Click to expand...


Mr. Alinwa in your own words please explain to us, how and why did you upset Mr. Montana Pete?

Mr. Montana Pete in your own words please explain to us, which of the two is it?

Mr. Montana Pete do you think, that you may have a thin skin or do you believe, that you possibly have the best 22-250 Savage rifle out there?

Con
 
4mesh

LMAO good story ,two thumbs up. Your buddy had the shooting gods on his side that day.

Pete that was an oustanding group, you did it once and I know you will do it again.
 
alinwa--

Yes, it most definitely is a 5-shot group.

I have four or five very good groups, all at or under 1/2 inch at 100 yds with this rifle. Remember that this rifle has only fired about 175 rounds so far.

Bear in mind also that I'm trying to work up excellent loads for this 22-250. I'm experimenting with various bullets and combinations. Just what you yourself would do with a new rifle.

My best loads so far have used Hornady 52 gr HPBT-M bullets driven by 34 gr. IMR 4895. That was the load that provided that good group in the photo. I have also got good groups with H380.

But many rounds have been fired as part of "test loads" trying to explore where the sweet points are, and where this barrel will do its best. If I just stayed with the exact load that delivered the photograph group, I could have done better -- I mean, in terms of producing more very small groups, I suppose. But with a new gun, you need to experiment and try different combos.

I got my best combo in the loading challenge by going back over my old shooting notebooks. I see where loads for the 243 using IMR 4895 powder were delivering well for me. I decided to focus my initial load experiments for the .22 250 along these lines.

-----------

You ask, "why are you defensive?" I read your challenge with the money bet, and thought you were trying to make an example of me as a "fake." I knew what that rifle does, and I was aware that it is a real shooter. However, to deliver several of those sorts of groups -- one right after the other -- is uncertain at this point. As one man posting in this thread stated, "the gun probably can do it but I am not sure I can do it." Furthermore, the gun is too new.

My main point in posting the photo is to earn your respect, and to show you I am not just some fake.

--------

I am with you, Murphy, in that a very good group is not always repeated-- but if the gun does it once, it can and will do it again! I wish I had your ridgetop range with the very minor winds.

====

4Mesh that is a fine story.

I can't top that, but I did have a situation where-- through some fluke-- a .22 LR target rifle produced a one-hole group at 50 yd. with -- get this -- Wildcat cheap ammo. Several persons challenged that, saying, that's very poor ammo-- you are kidding! Well, I have the group and the target paper, and it happened. But it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE POSSIBLE!!!!

Another good story--

MP
 
I have a Ruger 77MK ll in 223 that I have shot a lot. It will print tiny groups, but like folks before me have said, it won't do it all the time. A very good chuck gun in its own right.

I recently purchased a 222 Rem Nesika and a 6ppc Panda. THERE AINT NO COMPARISON.:eek: Once I found a load for the ppc with Bruno bullets, one hole all the time. The 222 will pound them in there all the time as well. But these rifles have 36 X luppys and 2 oz triggers, and were professionally built. PPC by Kelby's and the 222 by Dan Dowling. World of difference. I only "thought" my Ruger shot good:D

The 222 will shoot under .2 most of the time, the wind will get me now & again. The first 5 shots zeroed the scope, the next five went .175":) and easy on the brass.

Once a load was found for the ppc, I have not yet shot it over .4" which makes me smile all day long.

VV-133 shoots well in both rifles. My Experience is generally at 100 yards with some experience out to 500 yards.

I am not bragging, just closer to shooting heaven with these new rifles.

I have an Uncle who can keep a bone stock Ruger 77 7mm Rem Mag with 3X9 scope on a pie plate out to 400 yards all day long:rolleyes: Then he asks what is parallax

A neighbor shoots a 22-250 out to 600 yards with out any scope adjustments or hold over:confused:

Many stories, just go shoot and learn for yourself. Find a range out to 500 yards, you will learn a lot in a few shooting sessions. You'll find out that your super duper 243 Improved hot rodded up will still drop a mile over that range. Mine did!

Just shoot and enjoy. Ask lots of questions. These guys on this board will point you in the right direction.

Tony
 
No Disrespect

But Montana Pete it's probabley you that can't shoot the conditions NOT the rifle.The rifle doesn't know calm an 70% humidity from 40 mph gusts an 100% humidity.If you excuse the expression it's the nut behind the but that does the steering,and I'm as guilty as anyone of that:eek:
 
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