W
wnroscoe
Guest
I'm content using the Kreigers although half price does sound fair. I'll be planting tomatos in a few weeks, I'll need stakes for that 
4
4Mesh
Guest
Lynn,
I think it comes down to several things. Either the manufacturing process, marketing policy, or even just their opinion of what constitutes a match barrel. These differ from one barrel maker to the next, especially when talking about the three different methods of rifling.
Basically, all barrel makers have a target number for the eventual diameter of the hole, and the interior finish. All methods(cut, button, forged) will have variation in the final product. Each website of any of these manufacturers will usually specify the dimensions that they are attempting to hit. Notice I say "attempting to hit". It's a fact of manufacturing that holding a size is difficult to do when you are drilling 30" holes and trying to maintain 10ths with a 16micro finish on a featured interior. Much more so than measuring it when it's done. Shilen could just as easily open up the tolerance they specify and now all barrels will fit in the "Select match" category. They make a concious choice not to do that. THEY believe that there could be a difference, an advantage, to having the one that is closer to the mean. Thus, they market it as such and charge a higher price. This follows right along with what Charles E Said quite a lot earlier in the thread about them knowing the diff from one barrel to the next. Other barrel makers evidently do not feel that dimensional difference constitutes a change in grade. Which is correct is for the customer to decide.
Ok, fine. Now, does the variation in internal diameter make even a lick of difference? I say no. Do I buy Select Match barrels? Absolutely yes. Why? I have no idea! I guess I have $100 I don't know what else to do with so I buy the one that says select on it. Same reason everyone else does what they do. Cause they think it might work better. Does it? Who knows! As I said before, that lower grade barrel might just work better for all I know. Sadly, I have to say I've never tried one. Is it Shilens fault I'm a sucker and pay the extra $100? Well, no, but, you also don't see me here complaining about the price, or their barrels or saying that because they make up about one percent of the equipment list at Williamsport that a person should not get one of them for 1K use.
I am not saying that Shilen's policy is better or worse. Not saying that other makers are lying that they only make one grade. All barrels can shoot well.
I have seen this happen as well. It was very funny to watch.
I would be willing to bet that if you buy a barrel from vendor X and it is a X caliber of X twist and X taper, then some "well known shooter" buys the same barrel exactly, that most, if not all of the "well known shooters" will trade you barrels on the spot, then procede to turn that barrel into what you consider a "hummer" and you may well turn the one they gave you into a "bummer". Those of you who believe this stuff either do not compete enough, or not in the right places. After a while you will find that the folks who get all the hummer barrels are consistant, hard working shooters who do thier homework and bring their best stuff on match day.
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B
Big Al
Guest
I've only had one bad barrel in my shooting life made by a major barrel maker, that barrel was made just before the makers death in 1967. When I say bad, it was terrible.
If you get a .250" barrel that won't get under a .250", then I suppose that I've had my share of them. But I sure as heck never thought of them as bad barrels. You have one you know it ain't going to get you far up the latter towards a win.
When I see the top barrel makers shoot BR matches and don't see them in the top of the list. I don't figure they are using the worst barrels they make.
Further up on the same list you find the winners using the same make barrel as the barrel maker, I think something else is going on.
If you get a .250" barrel that won't get under a .250", then I suppose that I've had my share of them. But I sure as heck never thought of them as bad barrels. You have one you know it ain't going to get you far up the latter towards a win.
When I see the top barrel makers shoot BR matches and don't see them in the top of the list. I don't figure they are using the worst barrels they make.
Further up on the same list you find the winners using the same make barrel as the barrel maker, I think something else is going on.
S
ShelleyDavidson
Guest
Barrels
Three times in the last two years, I've chambered barrels that failed to live up to the standards needed to win so I took them off. Later, I re-worked these barrels to fit another rifle or changed to a different chamber and these three barrels came to life and I've won with them. There's a lot of shooters that consider a barrel bad if it requires a different tune than what they consider their standard load. Can we hold a barrel maker responsible for the barrel steels harmonics even when hummers and bummers come from the exact same shipment of steel? In my opinion, the barrel maker is responsible for using good materials and making a product with proper dimensions.
A friend of mine has a habit of buying, for a deep discount, other peoples failures. He'll then work with that barrel till he finds out what it likes and come kick your butt with it. This doesn't always work out for him, but it seems to work more often than not.
There are undoubtedly some bad barrels that get shipped but, it ain't always just the barrels fault, just sometimes it's mine.
Shelley
Three times in the last two years, I've chambered barrels that failed to live up to the standards needed to win so I took them off. Later, I re-worked these barrels to fit another rifle or changed to a different chamber and these three barrels came to life and I've won with them. There's a lot of shooters that consider a barrel bad if it requires a different tune than what they consider their standard load. Can we hold a barrel maker responsible for the barrel steels harmonics even when hummers and bummers come from the exact same shipment of steel? In my opinion, the barrel maker is responsible for using good materials and making a product with proper dimensions.
A friend of mine has a habit of buying, for a deep discount, other peoples failures. He'll then work with that barrel till he finds out what it likes and come kick your butt with it. This doesn't always work out for him, but it seems to work more often than not.
There are undoubtedly some bad barrels that get shipped but, it ain't always just the barrels fault, just sometimes it's mine.
Shelley
F
Frank Green
Guest
To all! Please go and look at my response to the thread the number of grooves under 1000 yard benchrest if you haven't already. I would link it to this but don't know how to do that! Sorry!
A lot of you have made really good comments here.
There are a ton of variables. Not just the barrel or steel, but gunsmithing, stock work and bedding, the chamber reamer weather it is conducive to accuracy and also if it was made correctly and even the sights weather they be match open or scopes and are the holding zero or tracking properly and the last variable is the human factor.
Later, Frank @ Bartlein
A lot of you have made really good comments here.
There are a ton of variables. Not just the barrel or steel, but gunsmithing, stock work and bedding, the chamber reamer weather it is conducive to accuracy and also if it was made correctly and even the sights weather they be match open or scopes and are the holding zero or tracking properly and the last variable is the human factor.
Later, Frank @ Bartlein
P
PPP MMM
Guest
This may be true
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT not everybody wants to wast hundreds of rounds to find the right load that may not even exist. It's obvious that not every barrel can be a winner, but if someone who's experienced and is used to shoot small groups can't find the right load after 80-100 rounds there is something else to be improved on. I don't see many of those who want to waste 900 rounds to find the right load and to have 100 accurate shots left before they reach the lifetime of the barrel.
Shoot well
Peter
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT not everybody wants to wast hundreds of rounds to find the right load that may not even exist. It's obvious that not every barrel can be a winner, but if someone who's experienced and is used to shoot small groups can't find the right load after 80-100 rounds there is something else to be improved on. I don't see many of those who want to waste 900 rounds to find the right load and to have 100 accurate shots left before they reach the lifetime of the barrel.
Shoot well
Peter
Butch Lambert
Active member
Here you go Frank. http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48323
Butch
Butch
zeke mccune
Member
Who done it?
Hi Lynn:
All of the work was done by Hart Rifle Barrles in New York. The person who cussed me out and hung upon me was a guy who was P.J. He was a real charmer!
Oh yes, all of the diagnostic work that Hart did for me,in a futile attempt to get this rifle to shoot, I payed for.! Several boxes of Norma Swift ammo and a very hefty per hour charge for labour was also payed by me!
If you have any other questions about this situation, kindly feel free to ask.
Good shooting,
Zeke
Hi Lynn:
All of the work was done by Hart Rifle Barrles in New York. The person who cussed me out and hung upon me was a guy who was P.J. He was a real charmer!
Oh yes, all of the diagnostic work that Hart did for me,in a futile attempt to get this rifle to shoot, I payed for.! Several boxes of Norma Swift ammo and a very hefty per hour charge for labour was also payed by me!
If you have any other questions about this situation, kindly feel free to ask.
Good shooting,
Zeke
F
Frank Green
Guest
Peter, I understand where you are coming from with out wanting to waste a 1000 rounds of ammo down the barrel to try and figure out what is wrong with it/the gun.
Give you an example. Early last year we had a customer who had one of our 6mm's on a short range bench gun (6ppc). He had about 300 rounds on it and really couldn't get it to shoot (averaged in the .3's). He sent it back to us and we couldn't find anything wrong with it (we didn't have the whole gun to look at.). Long story short someone else had heard about that barrel and called to tell me about what he thought was wrong with it (he thought the wrong style throated reamer was used) and was wondering if I still had it. I said yes. This guy is a top smith and wins matches. So I sent it to him. He found out when it was fitted up to the action the bolt was hitting the breech cone on the barrel. This as we all know causes a binding situation and this effects accuracy. All the guy did was give the breech cone more clearance. Guess what? Barrel now averages mid 1's.
When you have a problem and you didn't build the gun my first suggestion is to take it back to the smith to look the whole gun over (I know this isn't always the easiest thing to do). If the smith can't find anything wrong call the barrel maker and ask them they're suggestions/ideas. Have another shooter shoot the gun also. These are ideas and suggestions. Each person has to make up they're own mind as to how much they put into it etc....looking at they're components, ammo, the whole picture.
Sometimes there is no short answer or any answer at all. Each one has to ask that question themselves and with the help of others if possible.
How much time and money do you put into it? That you have to answer yourself. I don't like it myself when I don't have something working for me or even a customer. I like to try and find an answer the best way I can.
Hope this made some sense.
Later, Frank
Give you an example. Early last year we had a customer who had one of our 6mm's on a short range bench gun (6ppc). He had about 300 rounds on it and really couldn't get it to shoot (averaged in the .3's). He sent it back to us and we couldn't find anything wrong with it (we didn't have the whole gun to look at.). Long story short someone else had heard about that barrel and called to tell me about what he thought was wrong with it (he thought the wrong style throated reamer was used) and was wondering if I still had it. I said yes. This guy is a top smith and wins matches. So I sent it to him. He found out when it was fitted up to the action the bolt was hitting the breech cone on the barrel. This as we all know causes a binding situation and this effects accuracy. All the guy did was give the breech cone more clearance. Guess what? Barrel now averages mid 1's.
When you have a problem and you didn't build the gun my first suggestion is to take it back to the smith to look the whole gun over (I know this isn't always the easiest thing to do). If the smith can't find anything wrong call the barrel maker and ask them they're suggestions/ideas. Have another shooter shoot the gun also. These are ideas and suggestions. Each person has to make up they're own mind as to how much they put into it etc....looking at they're components, ammo, the whole picture.
Sometimes there is no short answer or any answer at all. Each one has to ask that question themselves and with the help of others if possible.
How much time and money do you put into it? That you have to answer yourself. I don't like it myself when I don't have something working for me or even a customer. I like to try and find an answer the best way I can.
Hope this made some sense.
Later, Frank
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Frank
That was well said, nobody knows everything and we all learn from those experiences of others.
Shoot well
Peter
That was well said, nobody knows everything and we all learn from those experiences of others.
Shoot well
Peter