Range Cover firing line advice

D

Dave Holland

Guest
We are putting together plans to cover are firing line .
So far we are leaning toward a shed style roof ,7ft 5 inches high in the rear and 10 ft high in the front and a steel roof using 2x6 rafters and 2x4 perlons on edge 2ft o/c
We would like to help knock down the noise of the steel roof and have gotten prices on sprayed foam insulation but the cost is more than the cost of the roof materials.
What has other ranges done to do a sound abatement at a more resonable cost that works Thanks Dave
 
Dave Holland said:
We are putting together plans to cover are firing line .
So far we are leaning toward a shed style roof ,7ft 5 inches high in the rear and 10 ft high in the front and a steel roof using 2x6 rafters and 2x4 perlons on edge 2ft o/c
We would like to help knock down the noise of the steel roof and have gotten prices on sprayed foam insulation but the cost is more than the cost of the roof materials.
What has other ranges done to do a sound abatement at a more resonable cost that works Thanks Dave
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The most effective thing that I know of (available in bulk) is fiberglass batt insulation.....cheaper and much more effective than the sprayfoam. But still not cheap. Whoever told you that spray styrofoam was effective hasn't spent much time around stereo sound rooms. Spray styrofoam is OK but more efficient at dissipation than absorption. In other words it spends as much time just scattering the sound as actually absorbing it. Note that to make the fiberglass batt work you must install it UPSIDE DOWN if it's got a vapor barrier. If it were me I'd find an insulating contractor and price out bulk rolls of the cheapest stuff with no backing. I've actually done this and in my case the cheapest thing was to have them drive out with the big truck and hang it. They drag it off the rolls and hang it with a stapler and string. Then I covered mine with chicken wire. Some folks will give you a hard time because fiberglass is a "carcinogen". It's not, and although NO you don't want to breathe the stuff you won't if you cover it with wire. My old reloading room was just open fiberglass batts in the ceiling, you walk in talking and your voice just goes away as you pass through the door, weird :)

The cheapest thing that I can think of is waste carpet and carpet pad. For this to work you have to make friends with a carpet installer, a contractor, and be available to truck away old carpet on short notice. Staple the carpet and/or pad right to the rafters.

Any sort of cloth, hemp matting, or other woven material can be effective but availability is hit-or-miss....... just keep your eyes and mind open and get to know some demolition contractors.

If you live near a metropolitan area Google foam suppliers. I've bought sheets of bulk foam in 4'X8'X4" thick for about 6 bucks a sheet.... this is wicked effective stuff and very clean. I use it around the hush-boxes of my ceiling mounted DLP theater projectors. Very absorptive but mebbeso a little pricy and definitely labor intensive to cut up and install.

The design sounds like a real wind-catcher...... not to pry but have you thought of this? Will this thing peel back in a 50mph headwind? A thunderstorm?


Anyway...... sound attenuation generally falls into two categories, absorption and deflection. Absorption is accomplished with a soft flexible material of very open weave or mat. The sound goes into the weave and is dissipated as heat. Deflection is simply redirection of sound using a rough or uneven surface, baffles or the like.


Hth, and hope you find something cost-effective. Keep us posted!



al
 
Thanks for the responce Alinwa
She should handle 98% of the storms that we get here in Minnesota ,she faces north and we have alot of trees here also on the sides and behind the range ,even so the posts are 4ft in the ground and ancored and no sides or front to catch the wind . and if she gets hit that is what we have insurance for.
thanks for the other ideas on the sound issue ,i will have to start looking for some carpet , maybe some outdoor carpet would last longer
Dave :)
 
This is just my 2 cents worth

Wood is better than steel for sound but it will cost quite a bit more. I would invest in ear protection because you will need them anyway and spend the money you save for other range improvements or not.

Concho Bill
 
The vary first thing, beat-up anybody that brings a rifle with a break. Gang bang is best.

There is a construction product used by apartment/condo building contractors to deaden sound between SXS apartments/condos. It is the most effective product I know of. It's called Celotex. It comes in rolls like rolled felt roofing. It's black and it really works. Many years of use in the construction trade and it's still around, means it works.
 
Big Al said:
The vary first thing, beat-up anybody that brings a rifle with a break. Gang bang is best.

There is a construction product used by apartment/condo building contractors to deaden sound between SXS apartments/condos. It is the most effective product I know of. It's called Celotex. It comes in rolls like rolled felt roofing. It's black and it really works. Many years of use in the construction trade and it's still around, means it works.
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hmmmmmm,

In my construction experience Celotex is a company which makes everything from roofing [ http://www.owens-roofing.com/celotex.htm ]to insulation [ http://www.glacierbay.com/celotest.asp ] to ???? I think that they started in the Midwest making asbestos ceiling tile. They seem now to be tied to all sorts of brands now like Certain-Teed, Owens Corning......



Is Celotex SoundStop the stuff you're talking about?? [ http://www.soundstop.net/ ]

If it's as good as you say I'd like to price it out for shower/bath surrounds and hush boxes. I'd never heard of it.

thanks


al


Muzzle brakes suck, not as much as democrats but a lot........
 
Hay guys thanks for the input but, i should have made myself more clear -the noise reduction is for the shooters benefit but the real reason is for the local residents , we do own 350 acres for the range but the city is still getting closer . thanks Dave
 
Al, I first became aware of their products in the 1960's. We had to do a retro to meet noise guaranties on high end Condos. These units were super high dollar. Would have bankrupted the builder had they not been able to come up to contract specs. Since that time I have seen it used in a great many noise abatement configurations.

I have seen it in use in power plants that were outside quit and open the door to sound blast.

For use around bath/shower installs, it's much better than foam. No swelling or distortion issues to worry about. How I would do it is the first layer to the studs would be the Celotex and then the green board sheet rock. I would do the same above the shower also. If this were a second floor install below the floor surface. I have done the full plumbing wall this way and have made a huge difference. It will put a smile on your face when you don't hear the difference. The sound stop really is the answer to Dave and your problems.

I set here with a smile on my face thinking about the first time I worked with this material, after the job was done, It was like getting into the audiologist booth for a hearing test. Just weird how it quiets the natural sounds around you.
 
Simply brainstorming

Dave Holland said:
Hay guys thanks for the input but, i should have made myself more clear -the noise reduction is for the shooters benefit but the real reason is for the local residents , we do own 350 acres for the range but the city is still getting closer . thanks Dave
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Dave's problem is common to many of our clubs. I think that we need to start with the basic design of the shed before we select the materials.

Why not have more than just a roof for your "sound reducing shooting shed"? I envision a shed with a back, two ends, and a roof that projects forward of the line maybe ten feet. The roof might even turn down at the front.

Another thought might be earthen berms on the back and sides of the shed.

This might be a standard metal building design with two inches of insulation or walls out of adobe. I believe that a wood design with an built up roof over a layer of insulation would be best. You might even use bails of hay around the sides and back. Products such as Celotex sound board could be used in the construction but it is not an exterior product so products like that would need to be used properly.

I know if this project is done right it might not be cheap but you have a lot invested in the 320 acres. Besides, it is not my my money and these are just a hypothetical ideas.

Concho Bill
 
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To reduce noise for teh shooters you need to either do some sort of insullation or make teh roof higher off of the ground. I believe the one on my former range in Houston, at the 300 yards line is 10 feet. The new one on 1K is about 8 feet, and much louder to teh shooters (at least it was to me). For protecting the neighbors you'll need to do wither earthen berms around your firing point or noise abatement walls, like they do on the freeways.


JeffVN
 
With the type of construction that Dave wants to do, I see the problem as one of sound reflection. In his case that means the solution is sound absorption. I have seen people use long insulated tubes to diminish the noise by absorption. But who the heck can afford that solution for a multi point range?

The worst case I have ever seen is a metal roof (shed style) with a concrete floor. Open on all sides. Any shooter with a brake on his rifle needs to be ban from the use of such a range when other shooters are present. Think of such situations as a shooter in and amphitheater.
 
Have the roof going.....

up to around 7.5 -8ft, then coming back down to about 6.5ft. about 8-10ft. in front of the benches. Everyone always builds them "right", but I've been on many ranges that could use more out front, for sun glare protection, & from rain, which has a tendency to blow back in. Spending more in the beginning may seem extravagant to many, & they are usually the guys that shoot the $h*t instead of rifles, always complaining, but never helping, always too busy w/"important stuff" y'know. You'll see the utility of it on those days it rains, accompanied by intermittent 5 to 10 mph puffs. Advertising the fact that the range is THERE is always a good thing, too, letting people know ahead of time.
Remembering that sound, like any fluid, is reflective will help during construction. Anything you can do to disrupt its flow is a plus.
 
what ever you decide, insulation is almost a must if you have summers like we do in NC. we have a car port type cover at our range, and it holds heat like an oven. If our wind meter thermometers are correct, it's as hot under the awning as in direct sun. In our normal 90 degree plus weather, temperatures on the bench were usually around 100. Luckily we don't have to worry about skin damage from the sun though.

Good luck on your search for the right material
 
any body ever hear of making a silencer out of a 55 gal. drum that you shoot through. iknow i seen it some where but don't remember.
 
It is just a matter of time.

Dave has brought up a most interesting and timely question when you consider it. Although our ranges were here first, as more neighbors move in we will see the need to be neighborly or our ranges will be shut down.

We need to be thinking about the way our neighbors see us. We need to be thinking about the future before it is on us.

Concho Bill
 
Bill That is what we are trying to do and show to the neighbors that we do care , to a point and be reasonable. We moved this club back in the late 1969 from the twin city area to 40 miles north and farm land every where , but farmers sell there land to the kids and they build a house ,why because this is there home and they love the land .
So we try to be good neighbors and get to know the people that live by the club , we even have a club picnic in the summer and we invite the neighbors and most show up --free food works every time ,and try to get them to join the club . Well thanks to everybody that has given some input and ideas to make this plan work . Dave
 
Big Al said:
How I would do it is the first layer to the studs would be the Celotex and then the green board sheet rock. I would do the same above the shower also. If this were a second floor install below the floor surface. I have done the full plumbing wall this way and have made a huge difference. It will put a smile on your face when you don't hear the difference. The sound stop really is the answer to Dave and your problems.
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Reading this post where Big Al recommends SoundStop under the sheetrock I think that Big Al will agree that this install is for HOUSES, I can't say that I agree with the sheetrock idea for the range........ SoundStop used as Al described limits sound TRANSMISSION through a wall, low level sounds like toilet flushing, talking, music etc.

I don't believe that you'll be well served with any sort of smooth reflective surface like sheetrock or plywood on the underside of the range roof.

Agreed Al???

I think that the roof of the range needs to be both absorptive and wrinkled or woven or broken or somehow roughened to deflect and disperse the sound waves themselves...... I DO NOT think that Big Al was advocating finishing the ceiling of the range with green rock over SoundStop.

Hopefully Big Al will agree/disagree with my statements re his post.

al
 
We used fibreglass batting held in place with shade cloth on our shed. Both compliment each other in reducing the noise, keeping the temperature down & for that matter, keeping most vermin out.
 
alinwa said:
Reading this post where Big Al recommends SoundStop under the sheetrock I think that Big Al will agree that this install is for HOUSES, I can't say that I agree with the sheetrock idea for the range........ SoundStop used as Al described limits sound TRANSMISSION through a wall, low level sounds like toilet flushing, talking, music etc.

I don't believe that you'll be well served with any sort of smooth reflective surface like sheetrock or plywood on the underside of the range roof.

Agreed Al???

I think that the roof of the range needs to be both absorptive and wrinkled or woven or broken or somehow roughened to deflect and disperse the sound waves themselves...... I DO NOT think that Big Al was advocating finishing the ceiling of the range with green rock over SoundStop.

Hopefully Big Al will agree/disagree with my statements re his post. No smooth sound reflecting surfaces need apply. If you don't have sound absortion on the ceiling, then you have the double bang and bounce. Step out side the covered position, stand in the open and let fly. Hurts far less than being under cover and shooting.

al
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al, you are correct, that would be a huge mistake to cover the Celotex with any smooth surface cover. My answer was for you only about bathroom installs. Sound absorption is one thing and sound reflection is entirely different problem. Green board has only one value and that is zero water absorption. That answer applies only to al's application and use.

Think about what the walls of a sound chamber look like? They are baffled with a rough pleated surface. For a floor you would be better off with a wooden rough saw plank surface than a smooth concrete surface. I would want my benches to be on isolation pads and not effected by the floor movement.

The ceiling needs to be covered with sound absorption material.
 
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