questions about tig welded bolts

alinwa

oft dis'd member
OK, I know nothing about TIG welding. I'm a fairly adept gas welder and also own stick and wirefeed setups. I don't consider myself a welder but I've got the general idea down. I've even reworked a few old war guns.

ANYways, I was just over on Dan Armstrong's site and the 'tarnal question that's been bugging me is...... HOW and WHERE do you weld a bolt handle to the body? I've done some incidental "silver soldering" and brazing, installing a bolt hannle this way makes sense to me but welding? I saw no sign of re-cutting on the bolts featured on Dan's site.

Are these welded handles remachined and re-heattreated the cocking ramps and primary extraction cams?

fuzzled

:p


al
 
Hi Al,

I don't weld bolt handles, but have done some reading on the process. I may be right or not, so for what it's worth.

It is my understanding that the bolt handle root is chamfered so the welder can get the rod under and completely around the circumference. The space is filled and edges ground and/or filed to finish. The bolt body is kept cool throughout the process so reheat treating is not needed.

I seem to remember quite a "dust-up" over at Accuratereloading.com discussing the issue of full penetration welds on the bolt handle.

Jim
 
Al
If you are good with the torch and rod then you will be able to handle the TIG process except for the Throttle. the TIG will put heat where you want it not ALL OVER the place and the use of a heat sink material will eliminate the need to re-heattreat
Procede Sir

Clarence
 
OK, I know nothing about TIG welding. I'm a fairly adept gas welder and also own stick and wirefeed setups. I don't consider myself a welder but I've got the general idea down. I've even reworked a few old war guns.

ANYways, I was just over on Dan Armstrong's site and the 'tarnal question that's been bugging me is...... HOW and WHERE do you weld a bolt handle to the body? I've done some incidental "silver soldering" and brazing, installing a bolt hannle this way makes sense to me but welding? I saw no sign of re-cutting on the bolts featured on Dan's site.

Are these welded handles remachined and re-heattreated the cocking ramps and primary extraction cams?

fuzzled

:p


al



Here's how I do it: (go to page 1 about a 1/3rd of the way down.)

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=197633&Number=2299447#Post2299447
 
Al,

when you're using a TIG welder, many times you don't need to add any rod. This holds especially true with SS. I do lots of aluminum that way, it just depends on the configuration of the parts and how well you can get to it.

Welding a bolt handle is super easy, as long as the parts are reasonably like metals and weldable to begin with. I tried one a friend asked me to do once but the handle was some sort of chrome based alloy steel. Looked pretty, but was brittle as hell, and came off again easily. I told him to send it to a guy found here on the board and have him do it, well, he stuck a new handle on it. That was fine cause it stayed on, but of course, I got to attempt to put the old handle on that somebody had 'custom' made and that one wasn't gonna stick.

As for re-heat treating, that's not necessary. The part of the bolt that takes load is up front a mile away from where you're welding a handle. You wouldn't really heat treat again, you'd do a draw cycle anyhow. Something like 400F for an hour. You could do it in your oven at home.

A long time ago on Nascar Garage I saw an infomercial for Hobart. They had a guy there who did welding for a race team on chassis's. He was showing how that top line Hobart TIG would do fine work and welded the edges of two razor blades together real nice an purrdy. Then they showed a super close up and I gotta say, the right person with the right machine can do pretty nice stuff. There's not a whole lot to file off when it's done. I did a stainless base for my rest long ago and butted some 1/2x6" flat stock to make the base from. No rod was added, and it was never ground off when done. I'd bet if I blindfolded you and let you run your fingers on it, you couldn't find the welds.

TIG is clean, non-porous, very stong (can be nearly homogeneous), but it does tend to require more heat input than some other types of weld like MIG for instance. It just takes longer, so there's more time with the heat.
 
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To answer WHERE they are welded, Dan welds the arc you see at the butt end of the bolt body where the striker screws in. Plus he hits it under the handle in the narrow area on the "closing" side, if you follow me. You need to check when done that the weld does not prevent the bolt going completely closed. I had to relieve the bottom of the action notch a little so the bolt rotation would come into time. Not a big deal, just something to look for.
 
Al,
When Dan welds a handle on the cocking cam doesn't get heated up.
I had Dan weld a bolt handle for me and he was very forthright with his technique, maybe you should give him a call or email him. Dan is a very pleasant man to talk to.
For the quality of Dan's work and cost it's difficult to justify doing it yourself other than just to say "I did it myself", and I am one of those guys who likes to do everything himself.

James
 
Al,
When Dan welds a handle on the cocking cam doesn't get heated up.
I had Dan weld a bolt handle for me and he was very forthright with his technique, maybe you should give him a call or email him. Dan is a very pleasant man to talk to.
For the quality of Dan's work and cost it's difficult to justify doing it yourself other than just to say "I did it myself", and I am one of those guys who likes to do everything himself.

James

Ohh I completely agree!! I have no want nor need to "do it myself" I was just wondering how the @#$%^! these guys do it without having to chuck the thang back in the lathe and re-face everything???? I'm seeing now how Chad TIG's the rear and faces it while soldering the front...... I still don't really get it because in my world welding just the back would pull the front open and I'd pull my hair out getting enough silver solder into a blind hole (I need to pull thru)

Thanks for all the info guys...... I'm no smarter about how you could weld the hannle without drawing down the primary extraction ramp to well below the file-hard I prefer but Oh Well, I may just have to have one done. I can see that using a really hot localized arc it'd be pretty easy to keep the cocking ramp from getting hot. If you're FAST and GOOD.... or you could even keep the ramp in water.

Now if there's guys who can relieve and weld the whole perimeter without lathe work then all's I can say is WOW...

al
 
To answer WHERE they are welded, Dan welds the arc you see at the butt end of the bolt body where the striker screws in. Plus he hits it under the handle in the narrow area on the "closing" side, if you follow me. You need to check when done that the weld does not prevent the bolt going completely closed. I had to relieve the bottom of the action notch a little so the bolt rotation would come into time. Not a big deal, just something to look for.

Thanks Wayne, that's much more clear!

al
 
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Al,

I could be wrong but, I believe capillary action with silver solder will the draw the solder into the gap in the front and in turn pull that gap closed somewhat as it cools. The potential change in temper is something I don't know enough about to comment. Once again, I could be completely wrong.

Med.
 
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.................................. You wouldn't really heat treat again, you'd do a draw cycle anyhow. Something like 400F for an hour. You could do it in your oven at home.

OK, yer losin' me here Phil.

I've made knives and flatsprings and chisels and scrapers and all sorts of olde school tooling...... I've quenched in water and oil, kerosene and onion juice, I've polished and drawn drawn back parts of all sorts, shapes and colors for all sorts of uses..... But this statement cornfuses me! Are you saying that Remington bolt body steel is AIR HARDENING? Why would I draw anything back @ 400F?

al
 
It's the process of normalizing the part Al. Look up the heat treat of most steels, most especially the ones you have used for knives and they will require a draw cycle to achieve an optimum hardness/toughness for whatever the application is. In virtually the entire matched tool steel family, you'll see normalization in the neighborhood of 400F result in maximum toughness. Give it +/- 100F, and I don't think now theres even one exception to that statement. So, pretty much, 400's a good number. You're talking about normalizing a part that was just welded, so, I don't think temps are real critical after you just melted parts of it. Sooooo....

The bolt will be dramatically more fatigue resistant if it spends an hour in a draw oven. 4100 series steel, (stuff used to make most bolts with), also is drawn to max hardness/toughness in the neighborhood of 400.

Oh, and the draw process has nothing to do with being A, W or O. You still draw any of them. The reference to Air Hard (A2, A4, A6, etc) is confusing ME! hehe.

I don't have a Carpenters book here or I'd take a pic and post it. In there, they'll have processes for various steels. There will be a graph showing draw temps and resultant properties. You choose a point on the chart that fits your application, do the draw at that point, and the steel then acts the way you want it to.

When you're doing knife work and basically forging the part, you can get away with a lot of sins. A thicker cross section however might actually explode if it is not normalized properly. I remember some years back, my brother asked me to take some gears out of the oven he had made cause he was going home. I took them out, and set them on the bench after they cooled. He was going to draw them in the morning. The next day, we came in to find they had blown to bits all over the shop. It was akin to smashed car window glass and it covered the machine area. The parts were about 1.5" thick and 6" in diameter. Both of them were stacked together and sitting on the work table. Both blew to bits. We swept them up off the floor and he made new.
 
Thanks Phil. Normalizing and stress relief I get.......... I was referring to the fact that at one point in mfgr wear surfaces like the primary extraction cam and the cocking ramp are heated and quenched for localized surface hardness. For wear resistance. And when these areas are subjected to extreme heat they will be "drawn back" to a softer state. I used to make replacement springs for antique revolvers and rifles where we'd hand file parts from spring steel, quench and draw back to a specific color for desired usage. The test for temper was to set them on the anvil and bash them stoutly wit' de' ball peen. Few people in the machining industry are conversant with the processes of surface hardening, spring tempering, differential hardening, case hardening and such. Very little heat treatment is done by hand anymore. And in any case the terms are used diufferently all through the various industries.

One of my kids recently made a case hardening vacuum kiln. Brought back fond memories of a slower gentler time.

And the lacks thereof :)

LOL

al
 
Al,
All I can say is Dan is great. His work is very clean and he does understand bolt timing and extraction. He has done several for me. He has welded 2 bolt handles together to get what I wanted on my Pierce custom. He is doing it again now on my 40X rimfire. Call him and he will give you all the time you need. He is free with his knowledge as is Mike Bryant.
Butch
 
Thanks Phil. Normalizing and stress relief I get.......... I was referring to the fact that at one point in mfgr wear surfaces like the primary extraction cam and the cocking ramp are heated and quenched for localized surface hardness. For wear resistance. And when these areas are subjected to extreme heat they will be "drawn back" to a softer state.
Since a Remmy is the standard everyone seems to use, I'll refer to those. I think you will find you are mistaken about the localized surface hardening of wear surfaces. The whole bolt is hardened, probably to 38-42Rc, and that is it. If anything gets harder, it is because it is work hardened through use. How much harder it gets is pretty minimal. Most like to have some separation in hardness between the mating parts of the receiver and bolt. A few points is generally sufficient.

As to TIG welding the part, I'd say if anything the area where the weld goes is actually harder when done than it was before you began. 4100 Series will go to around 47-50 max. 4300's go a good bit higher, maybe to 57 even. That's pretty hard. At 43, it's a challenge to even drill a hole in it, tapping is damn near impossible. And cutting is done with carbide or similar. Typically if you have a welded area on 4100 series steel, that area will eat tools. A drill will simply come out with a round end after it is burnt in place. Endmills really don't like that stuff, and sometimes even a file will skip over the surface. It's at the cost of being more brittle, but that's a relative term with 41xx and in the rear of the bolt, brittle isn't really a problem anyway.

Very little heat treatment is done by hand anymore. And in any case the terms are used differently all through the various industries.
Well, the terms are the same really, I use draw and normalize interchangeably even though technically that's two different processes that happen at the same time. I think for this discussion you get the idea.

Heat treat by hand is probably done more than you think. There's all sorts of reasons why it might be done less, most of which is that steels today are so tough and hard, you don't need to re-make the parts. Back when heat treat was done by hand for lots of this stuff, the parts broke cause the temps were not right. The steel wasn't as capable. They just didn't last. Now, the part outlives us if done properly.

I make cutters all the time at work. These are expected to live up to some serious requirements, and do. Millions of cuts on 1/16" stainless steel wire. Try that with a scissors. You do NOT make these parts making shortcuts. I did a set some time ago where I absolutely did not have one day to mess around, One broke and I needed product to go out. I heat treated the parts with a torch, drew them with a torch, and they lasted long enough that I had to sharpen them a couple times that day to finish the job. I then made parts with the same flat of steel, but this time did them properly. Correct temps, atmosphere, quenching. They've been in place for a year or more, and there's not a mark on em. The difference is night and day.

Yes, you can harden stuff with a torch, but there is a lot more to heat treat than just hardness. I'll guarantee you you won't get one of your A2 knives to 67Rc with a torch. The difference between an hour at 1725 and a few minutes at 1680 is night and day.
 
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Phil, OK, can't argue with any of that. Good info. But I will comment ;)

The reason I've figgered cocking ramps are spot hardened is that I've had two get sticky, one on a Remington and one on a Time. In both cases I first recut and polished the ramps which made them work wonderfully, for a short time. I then re-cut and re-polished and hardened with a flame/quench and repolished and they're slick to this day. My belief was/is that I'd worn through the suface hardening or that they'd never been properly hardened.

Musta' jumped to the wrong conclusions but they're both fixed. They're also both CM.

TIG welding.... so the rod used IS air hardening. And 4100 and 4300 steels are too? In other words the area ends up harder than drill bit without a quench? I didn't know that. I've annealed and spot annealed gun steels for drilling all my life but BUT NEVER SS. "Welding stainless" has always been something in that mysterious realm of "bring it to a shop." And I'm not in mfg so I know zip about tool steel grades and types. When you say 4100 series I'm guessing you're referring to SS, like the stuff used in SS actions.... so is 416 barrel steel also "4100"???

I'm getting 'wayyy above my pay grade here! Treading water trying to catch up..... but I'll furthermore venture that the "separation" in hardness between mating parts is to keep them fropm eating each other, galling??

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten me! I realize that a little knowledge is worse than none but in my case I'm more curious than anything...... I'm not the sort to bite off more than I can chew, generally. And even though I've actually welded on a few Mauser and Springfield bolt handles back in the day it's not the sort of thing I'd do now. Except on a Mauser or Springfield!

al
 
Several things I said above you must have missed.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to Air quench steels as if they are different. Other than the fact that they tend to deform less than oil or water quench, and that they expect to cool slower, there's really not much other functional difference in the process.

4100 series steel is typically Oil or Water quench. Polymer quench, etc. It calls for a faster quench than air, but, as in all this stuff, there's room for some latitude. Just don't expect top performance without the right process.

Now on to TIG again. You're familiar with several types of welding but all of them differ from Tig. First they are all pull weld processes. Tig is a push weld. Next, with all the electric weld types you are familiar with, they all use an aggregate material. While Tig CAN, it does not require it. Meaning, you are assuming people are using "Rod" when they Tig a bolt and as I said above, they are not.

When you Tig steels, you use a different electrode than you would for Aluminum. Alum uses pure tungsten and for steels you use a variety of additive tungsten. Most typically "Thoirated". You also do not use constant high frequency output. You use the HighFreq just to start on steel and the arc holds. On fine steel work you sharpen the tungsten to a sharp point, and when you do, you do all the grinding/sanding toward the point cause that helps the electric charge direct toward the part (or so they say). On aluminum, the point is blunt and becomes a ball end. You use AC for Alum, DC for steel (in general)

On either one, you can weld a part that fits nicely without adding a thing. It's just like magic, the parts just knit together. The shield gas actually helps blow the metal together. You might think that a fine gap would need more material to fill in but in reality, that's not the case. If a person wants to hollow out an area to add material, that's fine and you can do that, but for something that needs no more strength than a bolt handle that might see a mallet from time to time, no rod needs added. You will long since break the handle before breaking the weld.

Depth of weld is controlled partially by how far you extend the electrode. Another thing that's opposite with Tig vs anything else is that with any other weld, inside corners are the easiest configuration. On Tig, that's pretty much the opposite. Outside corners are super easy.

Maybe I'll Tig two tiny hunks of stainless flat here and send it to you and you can see what it looks like. I'll do just one side so you can smash it apart and see how the weld looks inside too.

Ps, Tig is all but silent on Steels (alum makes some noise), and has no splatter either.
 
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In other words the area ends up harder than drill bit without a quench?
Probably closer to say that when you weld a really small area, the fact that there is so much additional mass there, it quenches itself. Yes, it'll be harder'n the hubs of hell. Not harder than the drill, but way hard enough that the drill will not cut it. The drill will be mid to high 60's if it's M2. But drilling steel at 45rc is pretty much out of the question with over the counter stuff.

I've annealed and spot annealed gun steels for drilling all my life but BUT NEVER SS.
The stainless used on gun actions is way different than anything else you'll encounter. And while some actions are made from 410 and 416, that stuff is WAY different than the leaded stuff used for barrels. Way different.

"Welding stainless" has always been something in that mysterious realm of "bring it to a shop." And I'm not in mfg so I know zip about tool steel grades and types. When you say 4100 series I'm guessing you're referring to SS, like the stuff used in SS actions.... so is 416 barrel steel also "4100"???
No, By 4100 series I mean 4130, 4140, 41L xxx. Those steels. Things you would make a car axle from (technically, those are more 4300 but we're getting ahead of ourselves.)

410 or 416 for instance are sorta related to 4100 series, but THOSE are stainless. 400 series stainless has some carbon in it where 3 series does not. So, 4 series will rust, and a magnet will stick to it. These are dramatically different than Precipitation Hardening Stainless like 17-4, 15-5, 18-8. And a hell of a lot cheaper too. PH is pretty expensive vs the other stuff we've discussed above.

I'll furthermore venture that the "separation" in hardness between mating parts is to keep them fropm eating each other, galling??
Exactly.

Another edit.
I should also mention that Tig differs in another way from all the methods you mention. With all of them, you "touch" the part. With Tig, you do not. In fact, with all your methods, you cannot weld without touching the part. With Tig, if you touch it, you're done. And, you then must clean and reshape the electrode as well.
 
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