Question: Belted magnum or not

C

Chas1

Guest
It seems from most of what I've read that belted magnums are not a preferred choice for reloading. If I'm understanding correctly, on one hand it sounds like resizing becomes the issue i.e. a bulge developes above the belt after several firing and then the round doesn't want to chamber or on the otherhand excessive headspace which I've read could be dangerous. Any suggestions on how best to deal with both these issue and any other issues unique to reloading belted magnums.
 
Belted cases

Chaz1: From the Lyman reloading handbook, 49 th edition, page 227, for the 300 H&H Magnum, "this cartridge requires the belt for proper headspacing due to its long, slopping shape". The shoulder angle is 8 degrees 30 min. From page 285, same publication, for the 375 H&H Magnum: "The 375 is one of the few magnums that actually needs the belt for proper headspacing, due to the long, slopping configuration of the case". The shoulder angle is 15 degrees. There have been opinions expressed by highly qualified people saying that a modern magnum case was designed with a belt ( 300 Win. Mag., 7MM Rem. magnum), purely for marketing purposes. Both ctgs. have a 25 degree shoulder angle, providing sufficient headspacing. Even the "big boomers" like the Lazaroni, all the new Win. WSM, Rem. Magnums, etc. are beltless. That being said, Larry Willis/ Accuracy Innovations, makes a sizing die that is said to be effective in "squeezing down" the blown-out case head, to re-chamber. I have loaded the 300 Win. Mag. extensively, so speak with at least a little first-hand knowledge, although the exposure was short-lived.
 
Belted cases, part 2

Chas1: From the same Lyman manual, page 231, for the 300 WSM: " The absence of the belt found on traditional magnum cartridges offer smooth feeding and more positive head spacing". That shoulder angle is 35 degrees.
 
Belted cases, correction

Chas1: Don't know if it matters to you, but I dislike giving out "bad" information. Larry Willis' company is "Innovative Technologies", based in Florida, sizing die costs approx. $90. There, now I feel better!
 
One way to minimize case issues is to have your chamber cut so there is very little unsupported space in the front of the belt when the round is chambered. The standard magnum headspace gages allow too much space for our target rifles. The belts serve no useful purpose and can be quite a headache.
 
Belted cases, yet again

J. Pendergraft: When loading the 300 Win. Mag, we had the FL die adjusted so we were headspacing on the shoulder, after the first firing, of course. But even at that, closing the bolt on the third loading was "snug", almost impossible with the fourth reloading, even though the headspace dimension was .003" shorter than as fired. Approx. 500 rds. were fired, and the "shooter" (not I) got tired of getting beat-up with the recoil, firing at G'Hogs, prone position, at 700+ yds. He hasn't fired the rifle ( Shilen barrel) in many years. Using a Remington 700 "Tactical" in 308 now.
 
f. d. shuster: If you read his post carefully, Joel is not talking about adjusting the die, but about using a chamber reamer ground a bit differently.

And on that track, since this is a BR Central competition forum, matching both the chamber and the dies to the brass is considered normal. With that in mind, you could take Ed Caldwell's option for a .300 Weatherby. He had both chamber and resize reamers ground with no belt, then turns the belt off the cases. End of problem.
 
"Belts"

Charles E: I was responding to the original question: "belted magnum or not", and tried to expand on my experiences with the 300 W.M. factory round. By cutting a "different" chamber ( without a belt), you have created a wildcat, that then requires special dies, that then requires that the belts be turned-off the factory 300 W.M brass. At this point, it seems to me, we are far removed from a factory 300 Win. Magnum. Bottom line, I think most will agree the belt on a modern chambering is useless/ serves no purpose/ and as has been said before: "is a solution to a non-existant problem". Some may be happy with their versions, as for me: would never get involved again.
 
I don't know where all this, I call it a wives tale, comes from about belted mag being difficult to reload and problem with the brass expanding just above the belt.

I have been reloading belted mags since 1970, starting with a 7mm Rem Mag. I also reload 300 Win Mag, 7mm STW, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 270 Wby, and more. usually get about 10 or more loads per case and never have a problem with the brass expanding just above the belt. I have shot and loaded enough to need to re-barrel 2 7mm Rem Mags, 2 7mm STWs and 2 300 Win Mags.

One of the reasons I get so many reloads is:
1 - I always full length resize, but I adjust the die so that is only pushes the shoulder back 1 or 2 thousandths.
2 - I never mix brass between rifles that shoot the same cartridge. (because of #1 above. I also have a separate FL sizing die adjusted for each rifle)
3 - Don't push the pressures to much. This can result in expanded primer pockets and split case necks.


By following #1, above, after the first time the brass is fired, it now head spaces on the shoulder instead of the belt. This prevents case stretching. Case stretching and subsequent separation just above the web (about 1/2 inch above the belt) was the primary cause of short lived belted mag brass until I learned this technique.

If you don't push your pressures, you won't have excessive expansion just above the belt and you shouldn't need that special die.
 
I am not sure what the problem is about the belt. It sure seems like a hell of a lot of guys are winning a hell of a lot of 1 K matches with belted magnums. :D :D Proper load technique is proper load technique!!!!! Belted or not......THAT is what is important!!!

That, and knowing how to shoot, of course!!!;)

Just my opinion.
 
If you don't push your pressures, you won't have excessive expansion just above the belt and you shouldn't need that special die.
Click to expand...

THIS IS A COMPETITION FORUM.

THAT IS WHY THE WORD "BENCHREST" IS THERE.

Point 1: For those of you who don't compete, here is a tidbit: Usually, you get the best accuracy with high pressure. For example, a slightly faster powder pushed hard *usually* gives better accuracy than than a slower powder.

Point 2. "Accuracy" in competition translates into winning. That is, "how much do you need" translates into "eoungh to win." "Almost enough to win" doesn't cut it.

Point 3. At short range (the Centerfire forum), the top 10 shooters at a match will usually be within .010 inches of each others after 125 rounds. At long range, it isn't quite that close, though I have won by .002 inches (& lost by that, too).

So, even though there are lower-pressure loads that are quite accurate, over 90 percent of competitors use high-pressure loadings. They are usually a bit more accurate (remember winning), and usually more accurate over a wider range of conditions.

This is a good demonstration of why there are other forums, like the factory forum -- What the two posters said about lower pressures is probably correct. But it didn't even occur to me or others to post that kind of information, because it isn't relevant to competition shooting. When the amount of information you can give is as short as it is on a forum post, you have to make a lot of assumptions. If you can't, your information is apt to inappropriate.
 
Charles E said:
f. d. shuster: If you read his post carefully, Joel is not talking about adjusting the die, but about using a chamber reamer ground a bit differently.

And on that track, since this is a BR Central competition forum, matching both the chamber and the dies to the brass is considered normal. With that in mind, you could take Ed Caldwell's option for a .300 Weatherby. He had both chamber and resize reamers ground with no belt, then turns the belt off the cases. End of problem.
Click to expand...

Some have the reamers ground w/o the belt and simply bore the belt portion of the chamber to suit the chosen brass. I have setback factory 300 Win mag barrels to more closely match chamber (shoulder to base) to dies and bored the belt counterbore to match the brass. The brass is often .005 to .007 LESS than the min. h/s gage. And factory chambers are often much deeper than the min h/s gage.
With the availability of WSM brass (Norma and WW) and 404 Jeff parented brass (Dakota and Rem U'mag) there is really no need to use belted cases for most of our chamberings any more. Even Ruger has introduced a line of cartridges based on the Jeff case.
I hate belts.

Jay, Idaho
 
Charles,

I don't know why, but I have never had an issue with reloading a belted case. The only thing that I have had to do sometimes, is have about .010-.012 nilled off of the end of a FL die to be able to bump the shoulder.

When I see these posts about resizing belted cases, I just scratch my head and what is so hard about it.

By the way, how was your Christmas? And you too, Joel?

Danny
 
Hi Danny,

I don't know why you haven't had trouble either -- maybe the reamer your smith uses has been "tightened up" like the one Alvin designed for the .300 Ackley -- the one Joel uses. Or maybe you pitch your cases after 20 or so loadings? Personally, I've only use one belted case, the .30 Hart. I didn't shoot it long enough to get into belt problems. I do know Joel & just about everybody who seriously campaigns a belted case has issues with it after a while.

Christmas was great. My closet has enough clothes, my icebox enough food, so I asked anyone who wanted to give me a gift to make a contribution to a charity of their choice. I got notification of donations to the Salvation Army, Habitat to Humanity, and the North Carolina Food Bank. In tough times, those of us who don't have it so bad get a real good feeling from sharing.

Hope your new year starts well & we see you at the 'Ridge.

Charles
 
Charles E said:
THIS IS A COMPETITION FORUM.

THAT IS WHY THE WORD "BENCHREST" IS THERE.

Point 1: For those of you who don't compete, here is a tidbit: Usually, you get the best accuracy with high pressure. For example, a slightly faster powder pushed hard *usually* gives better accuracy than than a slower powder.

Point 2. "Accuracy" in competition translates into winning. That is, "how much do you need" translates into "eoungh to win." "Almost enough to win" doesn't cut it.

Point 3. At short range (the Centerfire forum), the top 10 shooters at a match will usually be within .010 inches of each others after 125 rounds. At long range, it isn't quite that close, though I have won by .002 inches (& lost by that, too).

So, even though there are lower-pressure loads that are quite accurate, over 90 percent of competitors use high-pressure loadings. They are usually a bit more accurate (remember winning), and usually more accurate over a wider range of conditions.

This is a good demonstration of why there are other forums, like the factory forum -- What the two posters said about lower pressures is probably correct. But it didn't even occur to me or others to post that kind of information, because it isn't relevant to competition shooting. When the amount of information you can give is as short as it is on a forum post, you have to make a lot of assumptions. If you can't, your information is apt to inappropriate.
Click to expand...
Gee Charles, didn't get what you wanted from Santa?

CHILL OUT AND STOP YELLING.

I don't care if you are a super moderator. Your post was rude.
 
Lynn said:
David
We are having a 1,000 yard match this sunday at Sacramento.Stop by.
Lynn
Click to expand...
I tried that a few years ago. I have a couple of rifles setup for 1K Benchrest, but my work schedule and the ranges schedule for practice times did not workout and most likely won't until I retire late in 2009. Maybe then I can get back into it. I was able to shoot a couple of practice sessions back then, and my rifles and I shot better that I expected for a first time out. I have a 6BR and a 300 Win Mag, both on Rem 700 actions.

Thanks for the offer for Sunday, but I can't make it. I'm just starting a major project, new hardwood floors in my house, an that will keep me pretty busy for the next several weekends.
 
Well i've been loading 30-378 cases for almost 4 years now an i have not had any problems with the cases swelling above the belt yet an i have some of the cases that i us for load development that have been loaded 8 times,but i only neck size to.So if there was goin to be a problem this would be the case that would show it I would think.
 
Danny B.

Danny Brooks said:
Charles,

I don't know why, but I have never had an issue with reloading a belted case. The only thing that I have had to do sometimes, is have about .010-.012 nilled off of the end of a FL die to be able to bump the shoulder.

When I see these posts about resizing belted cases, I just scratch my head and what is so hard about it.

By the way, how was your Christmas? And you too, Joel?

Danny
Click to expand...

Had a very nice Christmas, hope you did as well.

The belted magnum headspace gages all gage off the front of the belt, so the dimension from the head of the case to the front of the belt is what we are normally working with. This dimension is too large for running extreme pressures. Any unsupported portion of the brass case is going to expand when continuously hit with the pressures some of us run. Ideally we want to minimize unsupported case which requires using a shorter headspace gage when cutting chambers. Some gunsmiths are tightening this dimension up and therefore some shooters will not experience brass swelling in front of the belt.
 
Danny Brooks said:
Charles,

I don't know why, but I have never had an issue with reloading a belted case. The only thing that I have had to do sometimes, is have about .010-.012 nilled off of the end of a FL die to be able to bump the shoulder.

When I see these posts about resizing belted cases, I just scratch my head and what is so hard about it.

By the way, how was your Christmas? And you too, Joel?

Danny
Click to expand...

Danny,
When it comes to resizing issues with belts beleive me its the same scenario as shooters who have or haven;t cross-fired...... "There are those that have and those that will someday."

Do you remember after I got out of the service and started shooting with you back in the late '90s I use that old 6.5-300 Win Mag that had a glued sleeve and Unertl scope? That case is actually setup the same as Ed Caldwell's that Charles mentioned. That chamber reamer was originally ground around 1990 without the belt and made a special collect to hold the case while we turned the belts off in a lathe for this vey reason people are talking about now. Been there done that... you will too someday if you shoot with enough pressure.
Even with doing all the tricks that Joel and others have done by tighening up the tolerences and shortening up the belt recess in the actual chamber all you are doing in minimizing the "problem" and not eliminating it.

I don't do belts anymore. Gives me more time to enjoy a good glass of bourbon after a match rather than worrying about when I'll get bit by the belt expansion/resizing issue again and having to makeup a new set of cases.

Planning on seeing my NC and VA shooting buddies more often this year! Until then drive careful!

Also, when I shot that factory Sendero in 300 Win Mag in 2000 and '01 I used Federal brass. The hardness of the FC brass seemed to keep this issue to a minimun. I had a few extraction problems but not many that a little work with a small diamond file wouldn't take care of real quick. I beleive I remember you saying you used Federal brass also?

Steve
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top